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A blow to the keto
saintor1
Posts: 376 Member
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5958463/Fat-consumption-cause-weight-gain.html
Many of internet theories are so destroyed...
Fat consumption is the ONLY cause of weight gain! 'Unequivocal' data reveals protein and carbs are not responsible for a bulging waistline
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A total of 30 different diets were given to mice over a period of three months - the equivalent of nine human years.
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More than 100,000 measurements of body weight changes of mice were made, including a micro MRI machine to assess body fat.
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Researchers at Aberdeen University and the Chinese Academy of Sciences led the rodent study, considered the largest of its kind.
...
And combining sugar with fat had no more impact than fat alone, revealed the study, published in Cell Metabolism.
..
Many of internet theories are so destroyed...
12
Replies
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Is this a joke?!?4
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5958463/Fat-consumption-cause-weight-gain.htmlFat consumption is the ONLY cause of weight gain! 'Unequivocal' data reveals protein and carbs are not responsible for a bulging waistline
...
A total of 30 different diets were given to mice over a period of three months - the equivalent of nine human years.
...
More than 100,000 measurements of body weight changes of mice were made, including a micro MRI machine to assess body fat.
...
Researchers at Aberdeen University and the Chinese Academy of Sciences led the rodent study, considered the largest of its kind.
...
And combining sugar with fat had no more impact than fat alone, revealed the study, published in Cell Metabolism.
..
Many of internet theories are so destroyed...
Daily mail + rat study = LOL18 -
Mice fed fat-heavy diets consumed the most calories because fat stimulated the reward centres in their brains, scientists found.
Soooo...they ate more! Another win for physics and CICO
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I don't really think it's a blow to keto. I read another report on this study last week and the conclusion was that the fat was tasty, so the mice ate more of it putting them into a calorie surplus. A calorie surplus is what causes weight gain. Plenty of people lose weight on keto, so I don't think this is really a blow to keto.
Dietary fat is more easily stored as body fat when carbs are consumed, where carbs are the energy being burned...carbs aren't readily stored as fat. When someone is keto, they are consuming tiny amounts of carbs and thus dietary fat is used for energy rather than being stored.
In any event, it's all pretty irrelevant...to many calories overall is what causes fat storage.13 -
Who cares???? I already find it laughable when people are attached to keto like some religion, I don't see the use of trashing it either. It's only a diet like so many others that exist.13
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5958463/Fat-consumption-cause-weight-gain.htmlFat consumption is the ONLY cause of weight gain! 'Unequivocal' data reveals protein and carbs are not responsible for a bulging waistline
...
A total of 30 different diets were given to mice over a period of three months - the equivalent of nine human years.
...
More than 100,000 measurements of body weight changes of mice were made, including a micro MRI machine to assess body fat.
...
Researchers at Aberdeen University and the Chinese Academy of Sciences led the rodent study, considered the largest of its kind.
...
And combining sugar with fat had no more impact than fat alone, revealed the study, published in Cell Metabolism.
..
Many of internet theories are so destroyed...
The rat internet just exploded...
The human internet went meh...19 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »
In any event, it's all pretty irrelevant...to many calories overall is what causes fat storage.
It is all relevant and they don't prove anything against CICO, as I understand;Mice fed fat-heavy diets consumed the most calories because fat stimulated the reward centres in their brains, scientists found.
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cwolfman13 wrote: »
In any event, it's all pretty irrelevant...to many calories overall is what causes fat storage.
It is all relevant and they don't prove anything against CICO, as I understand;Mice fed fat-heavy diets consumed the most calories because fat stimulated the reward centres in their brains, scientists found.
It's relevant for those who want to regulate the weight of their mice. Maybe if I fattened up the mice in the neighbourhood, they would have trouble squeezing into little holes, keeping them out of the garage.16 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »
In any event, it's all pretty irrelevant...to many calories overall is what causes fat storage.
It is all relevant and they don't prove anything against CICO, as I understand;Mice fed fat-heavy diets consumed the most calories because fat stimulated the reward centres in their brains, scientists found.
It's relevant for those who want to regulate the weight of their mice. Maybe if I fattened up the mice in the neighbourhood, they would have trouble squeezing into little holes, keeping them out of the garage.
Those dirty rats are dirty eaters. They'll eat anything. This one time at band camp, I woke up with a dirty rat trying to chew my hair. Offal awful.0 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »
In any event, it's all pretty irrelevant...to many calories overall is what causes fat storage.
It is all relevant and they don't prove anything against CICO, as I understand;Mice fed fat-heavy diets consumed the most calories because fat stimulated the reward centres in their brains, scientists found.
It's relevant for those who want to regulate the weight of their mice. Maybe if I fattened up the mice in the neighbourhood, they would have trouble squeezing into little holes, keeping them out of the garage.
Those dirty rats are dirty eaters. They'll eat anything. This one time at band camp, I woke up with a dirty rat trying to chew my hair. Offal awful.
So... no mouse studies on the effects of clean eating?4 -
"Several hugely popular books were published in this period suggesting that eating fat might actually protect us from obesity. In recent years, however, attention has turned to protein, with the hypothesis that people eat food mostly to obtain protein rather than energy.
According to this idea, when the protein content falls, humans eat more to meet the target protein intake - causing them to consume too many calories."
That's from the DM fat blowback study. I no longer give a 'fat' rat's @$$ about keto/IF debate. It's sooo exhausting. You know what I care about and I mean this from the bottom of my heart...I care about long term success. I don't care who drops it like it's hot or 16 lbs in 19 days...just show me who's standing at the 5 year mark maintaining every single pound of weight loss. That's what I care about. If you've got that, I'm all about it. I care about who can actually maintain any of these large weight losses for the rest of their life and that about sizes it UP.9 -
Those dirty rats are dirty eaters. They'll eat anything. This one time at band camp, I woke up with a dirty rat trying to chew my hair. Offal awful.
So do we. We are omnivorous, share 97%+ of DNA with mice.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2352-just-2-5-of-dna-turns-mice-into-men/
You'd think that those searchers would waste money if the dynamics weren't exactly the same? It doesn't pay to be in such denial. lol...15 -
Dna may be similar but brains make the difference... we can make a conscious decision about our diets where the rats are running on pure instinct.
There are far too many people on these boards who have been very successful on keto both losing and maintaining to try and squash keto with another friggin rat study!5 -
"Mice fed fat-heavy diets consumed the most calories". So keto might not be the best strategy for weight management in mice. Unless groups of mice were fed the exact same calories of different macros and only the ones who ate fat gained weight, I don't see the point.8
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Those dirty rats are dirty eaters. They'll eat anything. This one time at band camp, I woke up with a dirty rat trying to chew my hair. Offal awful.
So do we. We are omnivorous, share 97%+ of DNA with mice.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2352-just-2-5-of-dna-turns-mice-into-men/
You'd think that those searchers would waste money if the dynamics weren't exactly the same? It doesn't pay to be in such denial. lol...
Yes, the dynamics are EXACTLY the same. That's why human trials are completely unnecessary. Every time they do do a study with rats, they always translate perfectly to humans
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". In recent years, however, attention has turned to protein, with the hypothesis that people eat food mostly to obtain protein rather than energy.
According to this idea, when the protein content falls, humans eat more to meet the target protein intake - causing them to consume too many calories."
This is an interesting, and plausible, hypothesis. And this is the value of rodent studies-- they are hypothesis generating.
It would be easy, and relatively inexpensive, to design a rodent study to test this. Give different sets of rodents different macro split diets, and let them eat as libitum. If they all stop eating at the same level of protein intake, the null hypothesis is rejected and funding can be secured for human trials
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srsly?1
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Those dirty rats are dirty eaters. They'll eat anything. This one time at band camp, I woke up with a dirty rat trying to chew my hair. Offal awful.
So do we. We are omnivorous, share 97%+ of DNA with mice.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2352-just-2-5-of-dna-turns-mice-into-men/
You'd think that those searchers would waste money if the dynamics weren't exactly the same? It doesn't pay to be in such denial. lol...
We also share a high amount of DNA with cucumbers and Fruit flies. But as anyone with eyes can see, the fact that our DNA is like 60% that of a fruit fly doesn't mean we are 60% like a fruit fly.8 -
Demagogy. 97% is close to 100%, 60% is not. And scientists around the world invest billions on this assumption.
Of course, this kind of research needs to be replicated/validated. But this is a large one, with some credentials and a study as meticulous as this one is rare. In short, their conclusion is that an excess of fat is much worse than an excess of carbs or proteins.
The keto and other low-carb fad things are over.
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Demagogy. 97% is close to 100%, 60% is not. And scientists around the world invest billions on this assumption.
Of course, this kind of research needs to be replicated/validated. But this is a large one, with some credentials and a study as meticulous as this one is rare. In short, their conclusion is that an excess of fat is much worse than an excess of carbs or proteins.
The keto and other low-carb fad things are over.
Sigh.
Paracetamol and aspirin are both deadly to mice. Thalidomide, prescribed for pregnant women in the late 1950s to alleviate morning sickness, resulted in many thousands of congenital malformations, despite having been successfully tested on mice. They pointed out that the obese, sedentary rodents found in laboratories can only be used to model humans in a similar condition, certainly not the healthy individuals on which research supposedly focuses. They emphasised that 95% of the drugs thought to be promising after experiments on mice, fail when subjected to clinical trials.
https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/20/mice-clinical-trials-human-disease
The vast majority of agents that are found to be successful in animal models do not pan out in human trials. Differences in physiology, as well as variations in the homology of molecular targets between mice and humans, may lead to translational limitations.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3902221/
Rodent studies do not translate directly to humans. Scientists don't do it, and nor should you15 -
Demagogy. 97% is close to 100%, 60% is not. And scientists around the world invest billions on this assumption.
Of course, this kind of research needs to be replicated/validated. But this is a large one, with some credentials and a study as meticulous as this one is rare. In short, their conclusion is that an excess of fat is much worse than an excess of carbs or proteins.
The keto and other low-carb fad things are over.
The reason we test on mice is not because they're so similar to humans that results can easily be projected to humans.
We test on mice because they're reasonably smart, small, cheap and easy to breed and keep first and foremost.3 -
johnslater461 wrote: »Rodent studies do not translate directly to humans. Scientists don't do it, and nor should you
Sigh. 97% means obviously that there ARE exceptions and those can't justify throwing a baby out with bathwater. In this case, close enough and no risk. I'll take my chances, thank you.
There is no equivalent scientific study of this magnitude which supports the low-carb phobia.
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Those dirty rats are dirty eaters. They'll eat anything. This one time at band camp, I woke up with a dirty rat trying to chew my hair. Offal awful.
So do we. We are omnivorous, share 97%+ of DNA with mice.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2352-just-2-5-of-dna-turns-mice-into-men/
You'd think that those searchers would waste money if the dynamics weren't exactly the same? It doesn't pay to be in such denial. lol...
What DNA specifically?
Humans share more commonality at the genetic level with nematodes.
Studies such as this are a first pass. Next step would be swine to test GI compatibility. Next step would be monkey. Finally human to attempt to control costs.
It's a long game to identify what is worth investigating and what is not.
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Demagogy. 97% is close to 100%, 60% is not. And scientists around the world invest billions on this assumption.
Of course, this kind of research needs to be replicated/validated. But this is a large one, with some credentials and a study as meticulous as this one is rare. In short, their conclusion is that an excess of fat is much worse than an excess of carbs or proteins.
The keto and other low-carb fad things are over.
How do you figure? I'm not keto, nor am I low carb, but people lose weight eating keto when they are in a calorie deficit.
"Fat consumption is the ONLY cause of weight gain" is misleading...excess calories are the only cause of weight gain. If fat in and of itself caused weight gain, people wouldn't be dropping weight on keto or low carb diets...but they are.4 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »Demagogy. 97% is close to 100%, 60% is not. And scientists around the world invest billions on this assumption.
Of course, this kind of research needs to be replicated/validated. But this is a large one, with some credentials and a study as meticulous as this one is rare. In short, their conclusion is that an excess of fat is much worse than an excess of carbs or proteins.
The keto and other low-carb fad things are over.
How do you figure? I'm not keto, nor am I low carb, but people lose weight eating keto when they are in a calorie deficit.
"Fat consumption is the ONLY cause of weight gain is misleading"...excess calories are the only cause of weight gain. If fat in and of itself caused weight gain, people wouldn't be dropping weight on keto or low carb diets...but they are.
Exactly. The mice on high fat diets ate more, resulting in excess calories consumed and (predictably) weight gain. Luckily for us, we're not mice and have the reasoning skills to know just because something tastes good isn't a free license to keep eating it.3 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »Demagogy. 97% is close to 100%, 60% is not. And scientists around the world invest billions on this assumption.
Of course, this kind of research needs to be replicated/validated. But this is a large one, with some credentials and a study as meticulous as this one is rare. In short, their conclusion is that an excess of fat is much worse than an excess of carbs or proteins.
The keto and other low-carb fad things are over.
How do you figure? I'm not keto, nor am I low carb, but people lose weight eating keto when they are in a calorie deficit.
"Fat consumption is the ONLY cause of weight gain is misleading"...excess calories are the only cause of weight gain. If fat in and of itself caused weight gain, people wouldn't be dropping weight on keto or low carb diets...but they are.
Exactly. The mice on high fat diets ate more, resulting in excess calories consumed and (predictably) weight gain. Luckily for us, we're not mice and have the reasoning skills to know just because something tastes good isn't a free license to keep eating it.
It's one of the reasons I couldn't do keto...I'd fail miserably. Back in the day I used to have a good 1/2 Lb of cheese and a pint of whole milk before going to bed...I could do that all day long. Fat just doesn't fill me up and tastes too good.4 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Demagogy. 97% is close to 100%, 60% is not. And scientists around the world invest billions on this assumption.
Of course, this kind of research needs to be replicated/validated. But this is a large one, with some credentials and a study as meticulous as this one is rare. In short, their conclusion is that an excess of fat is much worse than an excess of carbs or proteins.
The keto and other low-carb fad things are over.
How do you figure? I'm not keto, nor am I low carb, but people lose weight eating keto when they are in a calorie deficit.
"Fat consumption is the ONLY cause of weight gain is misleading"...excess calories are the only cause of weight gain. If fat in and of itself caused weight gain, people wouldn't be dropping weight on keto or low carb diets...but they are.
Exactly. The mice on high fat diets ate more, resulting in excess calories consumed and (predictably) weight gain. Luckily for us, we're not mice and have the reasoning skills to know just because something tastes good isn't a free license to keep eating it.
It's one of the reasons I couldn't do keto...I'd fail miserably. Back in the day I used to have a good 1/2 Lb of cheese and a pint of whole milk before going to bed...I could do that all day long. Fat just doesn't fill me up and tastes too good.
Well, maybe some of us are a bit like mice
I had to give up my jar of peanut butter at work. Just too tempting to have 'a little more.' I replaced it with whole almonds, which I am content to count out and not overeat. 0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Demagogy. 97% is close to 100%, 60% is not. And scientists around the world invest billions on this assumption.
Of course, this kind of research needs to be replicated/validated. But this is a large one, with some credentials and a study as meticulous as this one is rare. In short, their conclusion is that an excess of fat is much worse than an excess of carbs or proteins.
The keto and other low-carb fad things are over.
How do you figure? I'm not keto, nor am I low carb, but people lose weight eating keto when they are in a calorie deficit.
"Fat consumption is the ONLY cause of weight gain is misleading"...excess calories are the only cause of weight gain. If fat in and of itself caused weight gain, people wouldn't be dropping weight on keto or low carb diets...but they are.
Exactly. The mice on high fat diets ate more, resulting in excess calories consumed and (predictably) weight gain. Luckily for us, we're not mice and have the reasoning skills to know just because something tastes good isn't a free license to keep eating it.
It's one of the reasons I couldn't do keto...I'd fail miserably. Back in the day I used to have a good 1/2 Lb of cheese and a pint of whole milk before going to bed...I could do that all day long. Fat just doesn't fill me up and tastes too good.cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Demagogy. 97% is close to 100%, 60% is not. And scientists around the world invest billions on this assumption.
Of course, this kind of research needs to be replicated/validated. But this is a large one, with some credentials and a study as meticulous as this one is rare. In short, their conclusion is that an excess of fat is much worse than an excess of carbs or proteins.
The keto and other low-carb fad things are over.
How do you figure? I'm not keto, nor am I low carb, but people lose weight eating keto when they are in a calorie deficit.
"Fat consumption is the ONLY cause of weight gain is misleading"...excess calories are the only cause of weight gain. If fat in and of itself caused weight gain, people wouldn't be dropping weight on keto or low carb diets...but they are.
Exactly. The mice on high fat diets ate more, resulting in excess calories consumed and (predictably) weight gain. Luckily for us, we're not mice and have the reasoning skills to know just because something tastes good isn't a free license to keep eating it.
It's one of the reasons I couldn't do keto...I'd fail miserably. Back in the day I used to have a good 1/2 Lb of cheese and a pint of whole milk before going to bed...I could do that all day long. Fat just doesn't fill me up and tastes too good.
Well, maybe some of us are a bit like mice I had to give up my jar of peanut butter at work. Just too tempting to have 'a little more.' I replaced it with whole almonds, which I am content to count out and not overeat.
Right, and that's exactly why the study doesn't really prove anything. In this case, it shows the mice used for this study preferred fat, but didn't find it satisfying so they overate. Obviously the same with some people. Some people find fat much more satisfying than anything else and find it helps them not overeat. Since the study didn't uncover any mice that managed their fat intake without overeating, do we assume these people are lying?
As @CSARdiver points out, these studies are the first step toward deciding if putting money into more studies might be worthwhile (though I'm not exactly sure what earth-shaking revelation might come of pursuing it). It's interesting that mice preferred fat to the point of overeating. We have more than enough examples of people who do the same. We have plenty of examples of people who prefer carbs to the point of overeating. We have examples of people who do neither.
eta: We also have plenty of examples on these boards of people who prefer fat to the point of overeating, and yet they manage their fat intake just fine, and don't overeat.3 -
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