Coming off keto
ketobucko
Posts: 46 Member
Hi all
I’ve been on keto now for 11 weeks to cut bodyfat for a family holiday which is in 3 weeks time,I want to go away and not worry about what I eat for a week so I’m planning to come off keto tomorrow and start adding back carbs into my diet so it’s not such a sudden shock to my system whilst away,can anybody give me some advice on how to go about this ie do I up them gradually,is there certain carbs I should avoid at first, I was thinking of adding a couple of jacket potatoes in per day,I’ve still got a couple of pounds to loose so I’ll still be in a slight defecit but I’m slightly concerned that I’m going to regain loads of water around my midsection which is obviously not the look I’m after
Cheers
I’ve been on keto now for 11 weeks to cut bodyfat for a family holiday which is in 3 weeks time,I want to go away and not worry about what I eat for a week so I’m planning to come off keto tomorrow and start adding back carbs into my diet so it’s not such a sudden shock to my system whilst away,can anybody give me some advice on how to go about this ie do I up them gradually,is there certain carbs I should avoid at first, I was thinking of adding a couple of jacket potatoes in per day,I’ve still got a couple of pounds to loose so I’ll still be in a slight defecit but I’m slightly concerned that I’m going to regain loads of water around my midsection which is obviously not the look I’m after
Cheers
6
Replies
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It really doesn't matter much if you're a healthy individual.
Just be prepared to jump up some pounds from your glycogen levels rising.12 -
I don't have experience with this, but I would probably do it slowly. Maybe adding a carb source once a day with a meal or around your workouts, then keep increasing. You will likely see the scale go up since you will be retaining water. And you could bloat up or have stomach discomfort so slow is probably best to get your body used to it.4
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stevencloser wrote: »It really doesn't matter much if you're a healthy individual.
Just be prepared to jump up some pounds from your glycogen levels rising.I don't have experience with this, but I would probably do it slowly. Maybe adding a carb source once a day with a meal or around your workouts, then keep increasing. You will likely see the scale go up since you will be retaining water. And you could bloat up or have stomach discomfort so slow is probably best to get your body used to it.
Thanks both of you,I’ll add a carb source to 1 meal everyday for a week then see how I respond and take it from there
Cheers0 -
You'll probably have a bit of physiological insulin resistance for a day or two (your body will not be as good at handling carbs just like how it was not great at first handling fats when you first went keto). For that reason, I would try to use fibrous carbs the first day or so, so the glucose spike would be more prolonged and easier to deal with. If you are not dealing with insulin resistance or other healthier issues, it should not be much of a problem.
From what I have read, it only takes a couple of days to become a primarily glucose burner with efficiency again.
If you time carbs around exercise, you'll burn them off fairly quickly and might even stay partially ketogenic... If you'll be exercising on vacation.
You will regain water weight but where you gain it will be individual. For me, it tends to be my extremities like ankles or fingers. I doubt it would be more than 5 lbs. If you limit carbs to low or moderate levels, it may not even hit that.
The bigger problem tends to be gastrointestinal issues and BM problems. Higher carbs = constipation (and intestinal bloat) in my experience. Ymmv
Don't forget about replacing electrolytes again once you lower carbs. I find even after one day of higher than normal carb levels, I have to get in some extra sodium to avoid low electrolyte symptoms.
Have fun.20 -
You'll probably have a bit of physiological insulin resistance for a day or two (your body will not be as good at handling carbs just like how it was not great at first handling fats when you first went keto). For that reason, I would try to use fibrous carbs the first day or so, so the glucose spike would be more prolonged and easier to deal with. If you are not dealing with insulin resistance or other healthier issues, it should not be much of a problem.
From what I have read, it only takes a couple of days to become a primarily glucose burner with efficiency again.
If you time carbs around exercise, you'll burn them off fairly quickly and might even stay partially ketogenic... If you'll be exercising on vacation.
You will regain water weight but where you gain it will be individual. For me, it tends to be my extremities like ankles or fingers. I doubt it would be more than 5 lbs. If you limit carbs to low or moderate levels, it may not even hit that.
The bigger problem tends to be gastrointestinal issues and BM problems. Higher carbs = constipation (and intestinal bloat) in my experience. Ymmv
Don't forget about replacing electrolytes again once you lower carbs. I find even after one day of higher than normal carb levels, I have to get in some extra sodium to avoid low electrolyte symptoms.
Have fun.
Thanks for your advice I appreciate it,adding them back in slowly and around my training is definitely the way I’m going to go3 -
Hope it works well for you. I'll be travelling a bit this summer, and I expect my carb levels will rise a bit then too.stevencloser wrote: »It really doesn't matter much if you're a healthy individual.
Just be prepared to jump up some pounds from your glycogen levels rising.
For someone who has been keto for quite some time, and has become fat adapted, their glycogen stores should be full. Depleted glycogen stores that need refilling would generally only apply to someone who is not fat adapted, and new to keto, or who depleted glycogen through exercise.
The water retention will more likely come from increased insulin levels (from inclused blood glucose) which causes the kidneys to hold onto more electrolytes and water. Conversely, fewer carbs = less insulin = water and electrolyte losses.
17 -
Hope it works well for you. I'll be travelling a bit this summer, and I expect my carb levels will rise a bit then too.stevencloser wrote: »It really doesn't matter much if you're a healthy individual.
Just be prepared to jump up some pounds from your glycogen levels rising.
For someone who has been keto for quite some time, and has become fat adapted, their glycogen stores should be full. Depleted glycogen stores that need refilling would generally only apply to someone who is not fat adapted, and new to keto, or who depleted glycogen through exercise.
The water retention will more likely come from increased insulin levels (from inclused blood glucose) which causes the kidneys to hold onto more electrolytes and water. Conversely, fewer carbs = less insulin = water and electrolyte losses.
Thankyou,I hope you have a great summer0 -
Hi all
I’ve been on keto now for 11 weeks to cut bodyfat for a family holiday which is in 3 weeks time,I want to go away and not worry about what I eat for a week so I’m planning to come off keto tomorrow and start adding back carbs into my diet so it’s not such a sudden shock to my system whilst away,can anybody give me some advice on how to go about this ie do I up them gradually,is there certain carbs I should avoid at first, I was thinking of adding a couple of jacket potatoes in per day,I’ve still got a couple of pounds to loose so I’ll still be in a slight defecit but I’m slightly concerned that I’m going to regain loads of water around my midsection which is obviously not the look I’m after
Cheers
Just enjoy those 3 weeks is what I would do in your shoes and if you come back with a crazy heavy *kitten* weight gain, just do a mini cut, it shouldn't last long because of all the water weight you will be losing so quickly.
That's what I usually do when I go on vacation, I don't let my diet wreck my fun. It's not like you go on vacation on a regular basis and it's easy to come back to your pre-vacation weight. Last vacation I went, I gained 7 lbs in one week, it took 2 weeks at a deficit just to get back to my pre-cruise weight.
Unless you're going on a prep show, in your shoes, I would just enjoy it and not stress about it.5 -
Hi all
I’ve been on keto now for 11 weeks to cut bodyfat for a family holiday which is in 3 weeks time,I want to go away and not worry about what I eat for a week so I’m planning to come off keto tomorrow and start adding back carbs into my diet so it’s not such a sudden shock to my system whilst away,can anybody give me some advice on how to go about this ie do I up them gradually,is there certain carbs I should avoid at first, I was thinking of adding a couple of jacket potatoes in per day,I’ve still got a couple of pounds to loose so I’ll still be in a slight defecit but I’m slightly concerned that I’m going to regain loads of water around my midsection which is obviously not the look I’m after
Cheers
Just enjoy those 3 weeks is what I would do in your shoes and if you come back with a crazy heavy *kitten* weight gain, just do a mini cut, it shouldn't last long because of all the water weight you will be losing so quickly.
That's what I usually do when I go on vacation, I don't let my diet wreck my fun. It's not like you go on vacation on a regular basis and it's easy to come back to your pre-vacation weight. Last vacation I went, I gained 7 lbs in one week, it took 2 weeks at a deficit just to get back to my pre-cruise weight.
Unless you're going on a prep show, in your shoes, I would just enjoy it and not stress about it.
I agree that he should go enjoy his vacation and not worry about his diet. Only thing is, from personal experience, I would add the carbs back in gradually. I did a keto diet for almost a year, many years ago, and it makes for some very....interesting....digestive effects if you just go off and dump a bunch of carby foods into your system all at once. Unless he wants to spend his holiday always making sure he's within waddling distance of the nearest toilet, I'd advise that the gradual re-introduction of carbs over the next few weeks is a very good idea.
OP, your worries about "regaining loads of water around your midsection" are misguided. Keto doesn't selectively deplete water from your midsection, and carbs don't selectively create water retention in your midsection. There are plenty of people with flat stomachs/visible abs who eat loads of carbs. Bodybuilders often carb up right before a show to replenish their glycogen and make their muscles look fuller, and I don't see many of them on stage with loads of water around their midsection.13 -
Hi all
I’ve been on keto now for 11 weeks to cut bodyfat for a family holiday which is in 3 weeks time,I want to go away and not worry about what I eat for a week so I’m planning to come off keto tomorrow and start adding back carbs into my diet so it’s not such a sudden shock to my system whilst away,can anybody give me some advice on how to go about this ie do I up them gradually,is there certain carbs I should avoid at first, I was thinking of adding a couple of jacket potatoes in per day,I’ve still got a couple of pounds to loose so I’ll still be in a slight defecit but I’m slightly concerned that I’m going to regain loads of water around my midsection which is obviously not the look I’m after
Cheers
Just enjoy those 3 weeks is what I would do in your shoes and if you come back with a crazy heavy *kitten* weight gain, just do a mini cut, it shouldn't last long because of all the water weight you will be losing so quickly.
That's what I usually do when I go on vacation, I don't let my diet wreck my fun. It's not like you go on vacation on a regular basis and it's easy to come back to your pre-vacation weight. Last vacation I went, I gained 7 lbs in one week, it took 2 weeks at a deficit just to get back to my pre-cruise weight.
Unless you're going on a prep show, in your shoes, I would just enjoy it and not stress about it.
Yeah that’s exactly what I’m planning on doing mate,I’m only away for a week so I won’t gain that much anyway cos I’m still really active whilst away I’ve 2 young kids to run around after
,my concern was what anvilHead has mentioned that if I don’t slowly re add them now and then go beserk as soon as I get away I could spend most of the first few days sat by the nearest bathroom :u 0 -
Hi all
I’ve been on keto now for 11 weeks to cut bodyfat for a family holiday which is in 3 weeks time,I want to go away and not worry about what I eat for a week so I’m planning to come off keto tomorrow and start adding back carbs into my diet so it’s not such a sudden shock to my system whilst away,can anybody give me some advice on how to go about this ie do I up them gradually,is there certain carbs I should avoid at first, I was thinking of adding a couple of jacket potatoes in per day,I’ve still got a couple of pounds to loose so I’ll still be in a slight defecit but I’m slightly concerned that I’m going to regain loads of water around my midsection which is obviously not the look I’m after
Cheers
Just enjoy those 3 weeks is what I would do in your shoes and if you come back with a crazy heavy *kitten* weight gain, just do a mini cut, it shouldn't last long because of all the water weight you will be losing so quickly.
That's what I usually do when I go on vacation, I don't let my diet wreck my fun. It's not like you go on vacation on a regular basis and it's easy to come back to your pre-vacation weight. Last vacation I went, I gained 7 lbs in one week, it took 2 weeks at a deficit just to get back to my pre-cruise weight.
Unless you're going on a prep show, in your shoes, I would just enjoy it and not stress about it.
I agree that he should go enjoy his vacation and not worry about his diet. Only thing is, from personal experience, I would add the carbs back in gradually. I did a keto diet for almost a year, many years ago, and it makes for some very....interesting....digestive effects if you just go off and dump a bunch of carby foods into your system all at once. Unless he wants to spend his holiday always making sure he's within waddling distance of the nearest toilet, I'd advise that the gradual re-introduction of carbs over the next few weeks is a very good idea.
OP, your worries about "regaining loads of water around your midsection" are misguided. Keto doesn't selectively deplete water from your midsection, and carbs don't selectively create water retention in your midsection. There are plenty of people with flat stomachs/visible abs who eat loads of carbs. Bodybuilders often carb up right before a show to replenish their glycogen and make their muscles look fuller, and I don't see many of them on stage with loads of water around their midsection.
I’ve always done low carb cuts in the past but I’m talking around 80-100g a day not like I have been these last 11 weeks(not been over 20g once),my midsection has always been my problem area where water retention is concerned,anytime during keto that I’ve had a day where my sodium levels have been higher than normal I’ve looked bloated the next day so I always just presume any gained water weight will find itself there0 -
Definitely enjoy the vacation and eating carbs for a week. I've found that if i'm going to splurge on some carbs on vacation that doing things like continuing to IF helps (mostly just skipping breakfast). For me a plain old cup of good black coffee is plenty of get up and go for the day.1
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Hi all
I’ve been on keto now for 11 weeks to cut bodyfat for a family holiday which is in 3 weeks time,I want to go away and not worry about what I eat for a week so I’m planning to come off keto tomorrow and start adding back carbs into my diet so it’s not such a sudden shock to my system whilst away,can anybody give me some advice on how to go about this ie do I up them gradually,is there certain carbs I should avoid at first, I was thinking of adding a couple of jacket potatoes in per day,I’ve still got a couple of pounds to loose so I’ll still be in a slight defecit but I’m slightly concerned that I’m going to regain loads of water around my midsection which is obviously not the look I’m after
Cheers
Just enjoy those 3 weeks is what I would do in your shoes and if you come back with a crazy heavy *kitten* weight gain, just do a mini cut, it shouldn't last long because of all the water weight you will be losing so quickly.
That's what I usually do when I go on vacation, I don't let my diet wreck my fun. It's not like you go on vacation on a regular basis and it's easy to come back to your pre-vacation weight. Last vacation I went, I gained 7 lbs in one week, it took 2 weeks at a deficit just to get back to my pre-cruise weight.
Unless you're going on a prep show, in your shoes, I would just enjoy it and not stress about it.
I agree that he should go enjoy his vacation and not worry about his diet. Only thing is, from personal experience, I would add the carbs back in gradually. I did a keto diet for almost a year, many years ago, and it makes for some very....interesting....digestive effects if you just go off and dump a bunch of carby foods into your system all at once. Unless he wants to spend his holiday always making sure he's within waddling distance of the nearest toilet, I'd advise that the gradual re-introduction of carbs over the next few weeks is a very good idea.
OP, your worries about "regaining loads of water around your midsection" are misguided. Keto doesn't selectively deplete water from your midsection, and carbs don't selectively create water retention in your midsection. There are plenty of people with flat stomachs/visible abs who eat loads of carbs. Bodybuilders often carb up right before a show to replenish their glycogen and make their muscles look fuller, and I don't see many of them on stage with loads of water around their midsection.
I’ll second the digestive issues with reintroducing
Carbs, start with small amounts of complex carbs
And work up till your vacation2 -
Hope it works well for you. I'll be travelling a bit this summer, and I expect my carb levels will rise a bit then too.stevencloser wrote: »It really doesn't matter much if you're a healthy individual.
Just be prepared to jump up some pounds from your glycogen levels rising.
For someone who has been keto for quite some time, and has become fat adapted, their glycogen stores should be full. Depleted glycogen stores that need refilling would generally only apply to someone who is not fat adapted, and new to keto, or who depleted glycogen through exercise.
The water retention will more likely come from increased insulin levels (from inclused blood glucose) which causes the kidneys to hold onto more electrolytes and water. Conversely, fewer carbs = less insulin = water and electrolyte losses.
Someone who is following ketogenic is not going to replenish liver glycogen storage. A normal person can hold maintain roughly 300-500g of glycogen. And if your glycogen is replenish, you wouldn't be producing high levels of ketones as glycogen would the energy source. Its also why if you need quickly available energy, MCTs are recommended.. why because MCT metabolize quickly (love carbs). Its also why even keto athletes carb load pre event.
OP, enjoy your vacation. When i go keto, i can lose 5-7 lbs in a few days and then would regain it when coming off. But enjoy your vacation and if you are concerned with gaining weight, have a greater focus on high protein, high carb less fat (like sub 50g). This is because your body will prioritize glycogen replenishment over energy storage ( its the premise of glycogen super compensation).4 -
Aren't you worried about catching the diabetes? Jeez!
I'm just kidding. Enjoy your vacation.4 -
Hope it works well for you. I'll be travelling a bit this summer, and I expect my carb levels will rise a bit then too.stevencloser wrote: »It really doesn't matter much if you're a healthy individual.
Just be prepared to jump up some pounds from your glycogen levels rising.
For someone who has been keto for quite some time, and has become fat adapted, their glycogen stores should be full. Depleted glycogen stores that need refilling would generally only apply to someone who is not fat adapted, and new to keto, or who depleted glycogen through exercise.
The water retention will more likely come from increased insulin levels (from inclused blood glucose) which causes the kidneys to hold onto more electrolytes and water. Conversely, fewer carbs = less insulin = water and electrolyte losses.
Someone who is following ketogenic is not going to replenish liver glycogen storage. A normal person can hold maintain roughly 300-500g of glycogen. And if your glycogen is replenish, you wouldn't be producing high levels of ketones as glycogen would the energy source. Its also why if you need quickly available energy, MCTs are recommended.. why because MCT metabolize quickly (love carbs). Its also why even keto athletes carb load pre event.
OP, enjoy your vacation. When i go keto, i can lose 5-7 lbs in a few days and then would regain it when coming off. But enjoy your vacation and if you are concerned with gaining weight, have a greater focus on high protein, high carb less fat (like sub 50g). This is because your body will prioritize glycogen replenishment over energy storage ( its the premise of glycogen super compensation).
I believe that may be wrong, definitely when it comes down to muscles. It is in the early days of a ketogenic diet that glycogen stores are depleted, while the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel. That passes within weeks (definitely by the time one is fat adapted). I suppose there is a chance that ketobucko is not fat adapted yet, but after 11 weeks of ketosis, I find that unlikely.
From the FASTER study - its one study that I know of that compared muscle glycogen (after strenuous exercise) between than of higher carb and ketogenic endurance athletes. Muscle glycogen levels were the same, and they replenished glycogen at almost the same rate even though the low carb athletes were not given any post exercise carbs.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340
"3.5. Muscle Glycogen
Compared to baseline, muscle glycogen was significantly decreased by 62% immediately post-exercise and 38% at 2 hours post-exercise in the HC group. The LC group exhibited a similar pattern; muscle glycogen was decreased by 66% immediately post-exercise and 34% at 2 hours post-exercise (Fig. 6A). There were no significant differences in pre-exercise or post-exercise glycogen concentrations between groups."
If anything, low carb athletes replenished their glycogen slightly faster than the higher carb group.
The liver was not biopsied, unlike the muscles. I doubt it would be any different. If you have information that shows otherwise, I'd love to take a look.
1 -
Hope it works well for you. I'll be travelling a bit this summer, and I expect my carb levels will rise a bit then too.stevencloser wrote: »It really doesn't matter much if you're a healthy individual.
Just be prepared to jump up some pounds from your glycogen levels rising.
For someone who has been keto for quite some time, and has become fat adapted, their glycogen stores should be full. Depleted glycogen stores that need refilling would generally only apply to someone who is not fat adapted, and new to keto, or who depleted glycogen through exercise.
The water retention will more likely come from increased insulin levels (from inclused blood glucose) which causes the kidneys to hold onto more electrolytes and water. Conversely, fewer carbs = less insulin = water and electrolyte losses.
Someone who is following ketogenic is not going to replenish liver glycogen storage. A normal person can hold maintain roughly 300-500g of glycogen. And if your glycogen is replenish, you wouldn't be producing high levels of ketones as glycogen would the energy source. Its also why if you need quickly available energy, MCTs are recommended.. why because MCT metabolize quickly (love carbs). Its also why even keto athletes carb load pre event.
OP, enjoy your vacation. When i go keto, i can lose 5-7 lbs in a few days and then would regain it when coming off. But enjoy your vacation and if you are concerned with gaining weight, have a greater focus on high protein, high carb less fat (like sub 50g). This is because your body will prioritize glycogen replenishment over energy storage ( its the premise of glycogen super compensation).
I believe that may be wrong, definitely when it comes down to muscles. It is in the early days of a ketogenic diet that glycogen stores are depleted, while the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel. That passes within weeks (definitely by the time one is fat adapted). I suppose there is a chance that ketobucko is not fat adapted yet, but after 11 weeks of ketosis, I find that unlikely.
From the FASTER study - its one study that I know of that compared muscle glycogen (after strenuous exercise) between than of higher carb and ketogenic endurance athletes. Muscle glycogen levels were the same, and they replenished glycogen at almost the same rate even though the low carb athletes were not given any post exercise carbs.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340
"3.5. Muscle Glycogen
Compared to baseline, muscle glycogen was significantly decreased by 62% immediately post-exercise and 38% at 2 hours post-exercise in the HC group. The LC group exhibited a similar pattern; muscle glycogen was decreased by 66% immediately post-exercise and 34% at 2 hours post-exercise (Fig. 6A). There were no significant differences in pre-exercise or post-exercise glycogen concentrations between groups."
If anything, low carb athletes replenished their glycogen slightly faster than the higher carb group.
The liver was not biopsied, unlike the muscles. I doubt it would be any different. If you have information that shows otherwise, I'd love to take a look.
Just to point out, muscle glycogen is extremely important and will be replenished first. This study doesn't look at total body glycogen. And if you read what I wrote, I talked about liver glycogen vs skeletal/muscle glycogen.3 -
I would up your carbs to 100-150 grams per day that is enough to keep you comfortably out of ketosis.1
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Hope it works well for you. I'll be travelling a bit this summer, and I expect my carb levels will rise a bit then too.stevencloser wrote: »It really doesn't matter much if you're a healthy individual.
Just be prepared to jump up some pounds from your glycogen levels rising.
For someone who has been keto for quite some time, and has become fat adapted, their glycogen stores should be full. Depleted glycogen stores that need refilling would generally only apply to someone who is not fat adapted, and new to keto, or who depleted glycogen through exercise.
The water retention will more likely come from increased insulin levels (from inclused blood glucose) which causes the kidneys to hold onto more electrolytes and water. Conversely, fewer carbs = less insulin = water and electrolyte losses.
Someone who is following ketogenic is not going to replenish liver glycogen storage. A normal person can hold maintain roughly 300-500g of glycogen. And if your glycogen is replenish, you wouldn't be producing high levels of ketones as glycogen would the energy source. Its also why if you need quickly available energy, MCTs are recommended.. why because MCT metabolize quickly (love carbs). Its also why even keto athletes carb load pre event.
OP, enjoy your vacation. When i go keto, i can lose 5-7 lbs in a few days and then would regain it when coming off. But enjoy your vacation and if you are concerned with gaining weight, have a greater focus on high protein, high carb less fat (like sub 50g). This is because your body will prioritize glycogen replenishment over energy storage ( its the premise of glycogen super compensation).
I believe that may be wrong, definitely when it comes down to muscles. It is in the early days of a ketogenic diet that glycogen stores are depleted, while the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel. That passes within weeks (definitely by the time one is fat adapted). I suppose there is a chance that ketobucko is not fat adapted yet, but after 11 weeks of ketosis, I find that unlikely.
From the FASTER study - its one study that I know of that compared muscle glycogen (after strenuous exercise) between than of higher carb and ketogenic endurance athletes. Muscle glycogen levels were the same, and they replenished glycogen at almost the same rate even though the low carb athletes were not given any post exercise carbs.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340
"3.5. Muscle Glycogen
Compared to baseline, muscle glycogen was significantly decreased by 62% immediately post-exercise and 38% at 2 hours post-exercise in the HC group. The LC group exhibited a similar pattern; muscle glycogen was decreased by 66% immediately post-exercise and 34% at 2 hours post-exercise (Fig. 6A). There were no significant differences in pre-exercise or post-exercise glycogen concentrations between groups."
If anything, low carb athletes replenished their glycogen slightly faster than the higher carb group.
The liver was not biopsied, unlike the muscles. I doubt it would be any different. If you have information that shows otherwise, I'd love to take a look.
Just to point out, muscle glycogen is extremely important and will be replenished first. This study doesn't look at total body glycogen. And if you read what I wrote, I talked about liver glycogen vs skeletal/muscle glycogen.
Right. I got that. As I said, I don't know why the liver would be different than muscles.
Why would muscle glycogen be replenished before liver glycogen? Knowing liver glycogen is used by RBCs and the brain. I would think that would be a priority rather than feeding muscles for possible shirt explosive movements.4 -
Hope it works well for you. I'll be travelling a bit this summer, and I expect my carb levels will rise a bit then too.stevencloser wrote: »It really doesn't matter much if you're a healthy individual.
Just be prepared to jump up some pounds from your glycogen levels rising.
For someone who has been keto for quite some time, and has become fat adapted, their glycogen stores should be full. Depleted glycogen stores that need refilling would generally only apply to someone who is not fat adapted, and new to keto, or who depleted glycogen through exercise.
The water retention will more likely come from increased insulin levels (from inclused blood glucose) which causes the kidneys to hold onto more electrolytes and water. Conversely, fewer carbs = less insulin = water and electrolyte losses.
Someone who is following ketogenic is not going to replenish liver glycogen storage. A normal person can hold maintain roughly 300-500g of glycogen. And if your glycogen is replenish, you wouldn't be producing high levels of ketones as glycogen would the energy source. Its also why if you need quickly available energy, MCTs are recommended.. why because MCT metabolize quickly (love carbs). Its also why even keto athletes carb load pre event.
OP, enjoy your vacation. When i go keto, i can lose 5-7 lbs in a few days and then would regain it when coming off. But enjoy your vacation and if you are concerned with gaining weight, have a greater focus on high protein, high carb less fat (like sub 50g). This is because your body will prioritize glycogen replenishment over energy storage ( its the premise of glycogen super compensation).
I believe that may be wrong, definitely when it comes down to muscles. It is in the early days of a ketogenic diet that glycogen stores are depleted, while the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel. That passes within weeks (definitely by the time one is fat adapted). I suppose there is a chance that ketobucko is not fat adapted yet, but after 11 weeks of ketosis, I find that unlikely.
From the FASTER study - its one study that I know of that compared muscle glycogen (after strenuous exercise) between than of higher carb and ketogenic endurance athletes. Muscle glycogen levels were the same, and they replenished glycogen at almost the same rate even though the low carb athletes were not given any post exercise carbs.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340
"3.5. Muscle Glycogen
Compared to baseline, muscle glycogen was significantly decreased by 62% immediately post-exercise and 38% at 2 hours post-exercise in the HC group. The LC group exhibited a similar pattern; muscle glycogen was decreased by 66% immediately post-exercise and 34% at 2 hours post-exercise (Fig. 6A). There were no significant differences in pre-exercise or post-exercise glycogen concentrations between groups."
If anything, low carb athletes replenished their glycogen slightly faster than the higher carb group.
The liver was not biopsied, unlike the muscles. I doubt it would be any different. If you have information that shows otherwise, I'd love to take a look.
Just to point out, muscle glycogen is extremely important and will be replenished first. This study doesn't look at total body glycogen. And if you read what I wrote, I talked about liver glycogen vs skeletal/muscle glycogen.
Right. I got that. As I said, I don't know why the liver would be different than muscles. 4
Why would muscle glycogen be replenished before liver glycogen? Knowing liver glycogen is used by RBCs and the brain. I would think that would be a priority rather than feeding muscles for possible shirt explosive movements.
Skeletal glycogen is used to help maintain blood glucose, where the liver can produce ketones for energy. It really just comes down to prioritization of needs. For example, if you deplete total body glycogen over a period, when you refeed (which can occur as quick as 24 hours), your body will prioritize glycogen replenishment over energy storage; this is what glycogen supercompensation comes into play. This often means, you can eat significant amounts of calories (pending fats are pretty low) without any fat gain, and often fat loss. This is part of the premise of diets like UD2 (along with increasing fatty acid mobilization during low carb days as means to increase blood flow to "stubborn" areas). Also, another benefit of carb refeeds is the associated increase in leptin and decreases in ghrelin.
It's actually, all rather fascinating and complex stuff.1 -
Hope it works well for you. I'll be travelling a bit this summer, and I expect my carb levels will rise a bit then too.stevencloser wrote: »It really doesn't matter much if you're a healthy individual.
Just be prepared to jump up some pounds from your glycogen levels rising.
For someone who has been keto for quite some time, and has become fat adapted, their glycogen stores should be full. Depleted glycogen stores that need refilling would generally only apply to someone who is not fat adapted, and new to keto, or who depleted glycogen through exercise.
The water retention will more likely come from increased insulin levels (from inclused blood glucose) which causes the kidneys to hold onto more electrolytes and water. Conversely, fewer carbs = less insulin = water and electrolyte losses.
Someone who is following ketogenic is not going to replenish liver glycogen storage. A normal person can hold maintain roughly 300-500g of glycogen. And if your glycogen is replenish, you wouldn't be producing high levels of ketones as glycogen would the energy source. Its also why if you need quickly available energy, MCTs are recommended.. why because MCT metabolize quickly (love carbs). Its also why even keto athletes carb load pre event.
OP, enjoy your vacation. When i go keto, i can lose 5-7 lbs in a few days and then would regain it when coming off. But enjoy your vacation and if you are concerned with gaining weight, have a greater focus on high protein, high carb less fat (like sub 50g). This is because your body will prioritize glycogen replenishment over energy storage ( its the premise of glycogen super compensation).
I believe that may be wrong, definitely when it comes down to muscles. It is in the early days of a ketogenic diet that glycogen stores are depleted, while the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel. That passes within weeks (definitely by the time one is fat adapted). I suppose there is a chance that ketobucko is not fat adapted yet, but after 11 weeks of ketosis, I find that unlikely.
From the FASTER study - its one study that I know of that compared muscle glycogen (after strenuous exercise) between than of higher carb and ketogenic endurance athletes. Muscle glycogen levels were the same, and they replenished glycogen at almost the same rate even though the low carb athletes were not given any post exercise carbs.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340
"3.5. Muscle Glycogen
Compared to baseline, muscle glycogen was significantly decreased by 62% immediately post-exercise and 38% at 2 hours post-exercise in the HC group. The LC group exhibited a similar pattern; muscle glycogen was decreased by 66% immediately post-exercise and 34% at 2 hours post-exercise (Fig. 6A). There were no significant differences in pre-exercise or post-exercise glycogen concentrations between groups."
If anything, low carb athletes replenished their glycogen slightly faster than the higher carb group.
The liver was not biopsied, unlike the muscles. I doubt it would be any different. If you have information that shows otherwise, I'd love to take a look.
Just to point out, muscle glycogen is extremely important and will be replenished first. This study doesn't look at total body glycogen. And if you read what I wrote, I talked about liver glycogen vs skeletal/muscle glycogen.
Right. I got that. As I said, I don't know why the liver would be different than muscles.
Why would muscle glycogen be replenished before liver glycogen? Knowing liver glycogen is used by RBCs and the brain. I would think that would be a priority rather than feeding muscles for possible shirt explosive movements.
Skeletal glycogen is used to help maintain blood glucose, where the liver can produce ketones for energy. It really just comes down to prioritization of needs. For example, if you deplete total body glycogen over a period, when you refeed (which can occur as quick as 24 hours), your body will prioritize glycogen replenishment over energy storage; this is what glycogen supercompensation comes into play. This often means, you can eat significant amounts of calories (pending fats are pretty low) without any fat gain, and often fat loss. This is part of the premise of diets like UD2 (along with increasing fatty acid mobilization during low carb days as means to increase blood flow to "stubborn" areas). Also, another benefit of carb refeeds is the associated increase in leptin and decreases in ghrelin.
It's actually, all rather fascinating and complex stuff.
I'll have to go read more. It is interesting. I don't know much about UD2.
But, I was under the impression that muscle glycogen is used by that muscle and is not available to other body parts unlike liver glycogen. The energy stored in the muscle glycogen is mainly unavailable to RBCs and the brain. I think it is the liver's glycogen that get used if needed, as using the glucose that the liver produced.
I would think that if it is the liver making glucose via gluconeogenesis, that it would replenish its own glycogen fairly quickly. I'm guessing.0
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