Swimming and avoiding large arms/back
LKArgh
Posts: 5,178 Member
This is a weird question for swimmers, serious ones. My daughter who is in her teens is swimming on and off since she was a baby and has got very serious about it this last year. She is borderline overweight, and definitely not all muscle, but certainly far more muscular than the average teen girl, especially upper body, like most swimmers. The problem is she has started complaining a lot about gains in the upper arms and back, which is a look she hates. Her coach is a guy and thinks she is crazy, so no tips from him. Does anyone know if there is a way for a swimmer to somehow balance the muscle gains? She is not aiming for a ballerina-type look, she hates being bulkier in the upper body and hoping for something more balanced. She is currently seriously in the process of eating healthier to lose a few kilos, but while it is good for her health and performance, I doubt it will help with the unbalanced look she dislikes so much.
Usual training is 3 sessions per week: warm up, 30ish mins body weight strength training, short break followed by 90-120 min swimming, and she has no control over the program since it is a team. She could add an hour or two of something extra if it would help over the weekends, and her coach does encourage a couple of hours of cross training. He is into weight lifting and cycling, which are his go-to suggestions, but she hates both.
Usual training is 3 sessions per week: warm up, 30ish mins body weight strength training, short break followed by 90-120 min swimming, and she has no control over the program since it is a team. She could add an hour or two of something extra if it would help over the weekends, and her coach does encourage a couple of hours of cross training. He is into weight lifting and cycling, which are his go-to suggestions, but she hates both.
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I feel and look bulky not because of muscle, but from having too much fat over it - I lift with the intention of purposefully growing muscle and don't think I am bulky when I get to a bf% I'm conformable with. Losing some of the fat will help her look leaner.
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I dont think this will help but I gather she is really serious about the swimming? If she's serious there isn't much she can do I guess except ensuring she works her lower body as much as her upper.
Show her pics of swimming athletes, they all have the bulkier upper body, it's kinda how it ends up for swimming athletes.5 -
How old exactly is your daughter? My eldest is 12 and body image is already coming up a fair bit. Even so far as she is heavier than others in her class, but much taller than most of them too. My younger one is really small compared to her friends. We talk a lot about being healthy. Eating healthier food first, just a small portion of 'junk'. Getting stronger, because strong bones helped save granddads life (seriously, made a difference for my dad going through radiation). Appearance is way down on the list of what we talk about.
I think you need to work on getting your daughters confidence up. Yes swimming might give her a stronger, more muscular back. Usually though women with broader shoulders tend to have wider hips, or at least an ability to gain muscle there to even it out. In saying that I very rarely look at a female Olympic swimmer and 'holey shoulders' . Most of the girls I see around are just fit looking. I often see a former world butterfly record holder, and she was fairly built back in the day. She still is, but a little bit smaller as she isn't doing hours at the pool nowadays.
Coming as a kid athlete, and the sister of a former national athletics champion, it's vitality important that young women learn to love and respect their bodies. No matter their size, or shape. If your daughter loves swimming, and can look at what awesome things she can do in the pool as a result of looking after herself, that would be ideal.5 -
Swimming does little to gain bulk as it is a low-resistance exercise. How many huge swimmers you see in the Olympics? They have large shoulders but that comes from years of training and genetics.6
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I think if she loses some weight she won't look bulky at all. I just googled female olympic swimmers and none of them looked bulky or super muscular. If she is that concerned about it she could do some lower body work outs to "even herself out". She could run or ride a bike. Or just do bodyweight exercises like she does on the upper half.2
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I hope she can realize that her swimming skills and her muscles are a great example of her dedication and hard work, and that example of personal growth is more meaningful than trying to conform to arbitrary beauty standards for women.
OF COURSE I understand that growing up female is a ridiculous minefield of impossible and conflicting expectations, so her feelings about her body make a lot of sense, considering the world we grow up in and the pressures we're subjected to. I think the best thing is to make sure she knows you're there if she needs to talk, or learn information on nutrition and health, or cheer her on in reaching her swimming goals, etc. Just having a great support group of family and friends, who make it known that they love her unconditionally and are proud of all her accomplishments, can help her be more likely to emerge into adulthood without all the added baggage of disordered eating, yo-yo dieting, guilt about eating, and body image dysmorphia.
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Sounds like a good time to talk about body image, the expectations placed on people and their physical appearance, and the importance of a healthy body over random aesthetics that are the luck of the draw and nothing to do with effort or will.2
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I'm hesitant to say this... but get her diet/intake in check. Gains are more tied to her intake than to her swimming. How you do that while managing body image concerns and a healthy view of food is another issue.6
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livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I feel and look bulky not because of muscle, but from having too much fat over it - I lift with the intention of purposefully growing muscle and don't think I am bulky when I get to a bf% I'm conformable with. Losing some of the fat will help her look leaner.
This would be my guess as well. I've very rarely seen 'bulky', but defined, arms on women. 'Bulky' arms on a female (unless they are doing tremendous amounts of bodybuilding work over years & years specifically to build the muscle) almost always have a good amount of fat over the muscle. She might like the look she gets from the muscle if her arms were leaner with muscle definition showing (which most people seem to find attractive).3 -
I dont think this will help but I gather she is really serious about the swimming? If she's serious there isn't much she can do I guess except ensuring she works her lower body as much as her upper.
Show her pics of swimming athletes, they all have the bulkier upper body, it's kinda how it ends up for swimming athletes.
Yeah, I know and she has seriously thought about quitting (at least the racing prep) because she hates the look, which I think is really stupid. Fortunately she has decided not to, but she still hopes there is a way to look more balanced.0 -
gallicinvasion wrote: »I hope she can realize that her swimming skills and her muscles are a great example of her dedication and hard work, and that example of personal growth is more meaningful than trying to conform to arbitrary beauty standards for women.
OF COURSE I understand that growing up female is a ridiculous minefield of impossible and conflicting expectations, so her feelings about her body make a lot of sense, considering the world we grow up in and the pressures we're subjected to. I think the best thing is to make sure she knows you're there if she needs to talk, or learn information on nutrition and health, or cheer her on in reaching her swimming goals, etc. Just having a great support group of family and friends, who make it known that they love her unconditionally and are proud of all her accomplishments, can help her be more likely to emerge into adulthood without all the added baggage of disordered eating, yo-yo dieting, guilt about eating, and body image dysmorphia.
Yes, we do talk about it a lot. It does not help that her best friend is a dancer, and on a constant diet to stay below normal BMI. While I do remind her not to compare and that being this thin is equally unhealthy as being overweight, I think it is hard at this age.0 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »I feel and look bulky not because of muscle, but from having too much fat over it - I lift with the intention of purposefully growing muscle and don't think I am bulky when I get to a bf% I'm conformable with. Losing some of the fat will help her look leaner.
This would be my guess as well. I've very rarely seen 'bulky', but defined, arms on women. 'Bulky' arms on a female (unless they are doing tremendous amounts of bodybuilding work over years & years specifically to build the muscle) almost always have a good amount of fat over the muscle. She might like the look she gets from the muscle if her arms were leaner with muscle definition showing (which most people seem to find attractive).
I hope so too, that being a few kilos lighter will help have more defined muscle and like the look, because it is definitely not all muscle. She has wide shoulders and back, but her arms could certainly slim by losing some fat. They do some intense strength training, and she also used to do weights too a couple of years ago, as part of martial arts strength training, plus she has a slight hormonal imbalance (high androgens, inherited from me unfortunately), so her natural shape as she grows older is not traditionally feminine. I also have more muscle than expected for a woman but I guess I always liked it and thought of it as looking stronger, not bulkier. But I also was thinner at her age, so that might be a good point about the fat.1 -
This makes me sad.
I was a very light and frail high schooler and used to admire the backs/shoulders of the girls on the swim team. The grass is always greener, right?7 -
I think it's sad too. I admire women who have strong looking arms and backs and I think it's sad that she would consider quitting doing a sport because of some random body image aesthetic ideal that she thinks she needs to conform to.
If she has strong looking, muscular arms and back, that is a sign of dedication to her sport and is nothing but admirable. I feel bad for her. 4 -
She exercises and seems relatively healthy. She is also still developing. AIthough some have suggested dieting, I would caution this should only be done after consulting a doctor.
Maybe she could work on developing her lower half to balance the top. I have naturally broad shoulders and thin legs so I have to work on squats and lunges to look balanced.
Regardless, I'm sure she is beautiful just the way she is!
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If she's less worried about her actual size, and more worried about looking unbalanced then she could work on building muscles to balance out her overall proportions. Not just lower body, but I think swimming mostly works back/traps/tris, so she may find a more balanced look adding in lifting for chest/biceps as well as lower body quads/glutes/hamstring/calf...particularly glutes...nothing will balance out the look of a strong back like having strong glutes...it should give her an overall totally amazon kind of look, but in a balanced sort of way.
I also don't understand why she doesn't want to look like a ballerina...that seems like a very strong and yet balanced visual...I would bet some of the ballet type exercises would be good for balancing her upper body back to front and balancing out the upper to lower visual as well.
You can only alter the muscle, her body may store fat more in her upper body and back, particularly if she has hormone issues...that isn't going to change without losing the excess fat, just ask anyone with those 5 extra pound that are all in the belly...might want to give DIM a try to help with the hormone imbalance if you haven't already.0 -
I swam at that age, and developed swimmers shoulders.
I know you're her mom, and she won't listen to you, but keep reminding her that those shoulders mean she's *strong*. I hated my back in high school, but then I'd look at the young women on our team who I looked up to -- AKA, the seniors -- and saw how strong and awesome *they* were. And that helped.
Now? I've still got broad shoulders (I read that average for a women is 14 across the back, and mine's 19), but I'm a 34DD, and generally wear tops/dresses that are a small or XS.
I'd encourage her to look at role models who look like her. Look at the athletes -- Katie Ledecky is *built* and she is amazing. Ditto with Simone Manuel, Maya DiRado, and Missy Franklin.
If she wants to work on her lower body, encourage her -- perhaps with her coaches' and trainers' oversight -- to consider a program like Strong Lifts or New Rules of Lifting for women. Having strong thighs will also make her a powerhouse in the pool.
Keep reinforcing the idea of strength and power, and not trimming down. Reinforcing slimming down is going to reinforce in her head the idea that the only ideal female aesthetic is to be stick straight, and that she shouldn't be happy unless she can look like the dancers and the "typical" teenage girl.
It's also normal for teenagers to gain a little bit more fat as they're in puberty. This is normal. This is healthy. Don't feed into potential body image issues by telling her that she needs to shed it. As long as her physician isn't concerned, don't be putting those ideas in her head *now* that she needs to be slim to be happy and healthy. Those feelings will last a lifetime.5 -
funjen1972 wrote: »She exercises and seems relatively healthy. She is also still developing. AIthough some have suggested dieting, I would caution this should only be done after consulting a doctor.
Maybe she could work on developing her lower half to balance the top. I have naturally broad shoulders and thin legs so I have to work on squats and lunges to look balanced.
Regardless, I'm sure she is beautiful just the way she is!
She has been advised by her dr to lose something like 3-5 kilos, slowly over a few months. She was first told this about a year ago, and basically refused to really cooperate. She was told the same thing during winter and finally a month ago, and this time I think it has clicked. She is probably doing it for the wrong reasons (comparing herself to other girls etc) but still, it is what the dr recommends.2 -
Swimming does little to gain bulk as it is a low-resistance exercise. How many huge swimmers you see in the Olympics? They have large shoulders but that comes from years of training and genetics.
You need to look closer at the backs and shoulders. They bulk up quite a bit in competitive swimmers. I have seen older kids on the swim team bulk up a fair amount just over the summer and they "only" swam twice a day for about an hour each time.5 -
collectingblues wrote: »I swam at that age, and developed swimmers shoulders.
I know you're her mom, and she won't listen to you, but keep reminding her that those shoulders mean she's *strong*. I hated my back in high school, but then I'd look at the young women on our team who I looked up to -- AKA, the seniors -- and saw how strong and awesome *they* were. And that helped.
Now? I've still got broad shoulders (I read that average for a women is 14 across the back, and mine's 19), but I'm a 34DD, and generally wear tops/dresses that are a small or XS.
I'd encourage her to look at role models who look like her. Look at the athletes -- Katie Ledecky is *built* and she is amazing. Ditto with Simone Manuel, Maya DiRado, and Missy Franklin.
I think this is more or less what she feels. She has a best friend at the pool who is also one of the team's stars and they both whine about their back and shoulders. I think also being at this awkward stage where she is the height of an adult but has almost no breasts makes her feel worse than her friends, who are all a bit more traditionally "feminine". I will try showing her a few female athletes, had not thought of that.1 -
collectingblues wrote: »I swam at that age, and developed swimmers shoulders.
I know you're her mom, and she won't listen to you, but keep reminding her that those shoulders mean she's *strong*. I hated my back in high school, but then I'd look at the young women on our team who I looked up to -- AKA, the seniors -- and saw how strong and awesome *they* were. And that helped.
Now? I've still got broad shoulders (I read that average for a women is 14 across the back, and mine's 19), but I'm a 34DD, and generally wear tops/dresses that are a small or XS.
I'd encourage her to look at role models who look like her. Look at the athletes -- Katie Ledecky is *built* and she is amazing. Ditto with Simone Manuel, Maya DiRado, and Missy Franklin.
I think this is more or less what she feels. She has a best friend at the pool who is also one of the team's stars and they both whine about their back and shoulders. I think also being at this awkward stage where she is the height of an adult but has almost no breasts makes her feel worse than her friends, who are all a bit more traditionally "feminine". I will try showing her a few female athletes, had not thought of that.
It's *really* rough at that age. I also was in show choir, so my peers there were your traditional petite slim-shouldered types... And unfortunately, with show choir being what it was, the director had absolutely no qualms about pointing out how I was broad compared to anyone else. (And sadly, neither did my father.)
I wish I knew then what I know now -- that there's not just one ideal aesthetic, and that you can be built, and strong, and *still* attractive.2 -
Being a kid is tough. I grew up figure skating a lot and always had bigger than average muscular thighs. I know the feeling, you can't fit into some of the cool clothing your friends are. Eventually she will embrace her shape and be happy about it but as someone who has been there it is hard to see.
I'd just encourage her and tell her what she's doing is healthy and she's building a foundation right now for something she can benefit from her entire life. Lots have been there she is not alone2 -
I'm not sure if anyone suggested this...but maybe she needs to get into an environment where she is exposed to athletic women.
I do competitive powerlifting and am more built than the "average" woman. I hear nothing but positive and honest remarks about my body from other women at the gym.
I'm sure your daughter's peers have a huge influence on what she views as a "normal" female body (having been a teen girl I know "normal" meant skinny at the time). She might not like the weight training at first, but if she had some female role models around, she might come around to it...and change her perspective on her on body.4 -
deputy_randolph wrote: »I'm not sure if anyone suggested this...but maybe she needs to get into an environment where she is exposed to athletic women.
I do competitive powerlifting and am more built than the "average" woman. I hear nothing but positive and honest remarks about my body from other women at the gym.
I'm sure your daughter's peers have a huge influence on what she views as a "normal" female body (having been a teen girl I know "normal" meant skinny at the time). She might not like the weight training at first, but if she had some female role models around, she might come around to it...and change her perspective on her on body.
This is really good advice. Our environment can be a HUGE influence on what we perceive as normal or acceptable... changing her environment a bit could have a significant impact.
I get that everyone is different and all that wonderful jazz, but if your daughter is trying to fit in with what she thinks is popular (or whatever) and is feeling insecure about it, "reassuring" her that everyone is beautiful and that all bodies are fantastic and all the other rainbows and unicorns that society tries to pump out these days probably isn't going to help, and might only isolate her further. Full disclosure - I'm speaking from my own experiences, so maybe I'm projecting a bit, but not everyone one is beautiful, and not every body shape is wonderful. Suggesting such could give your daughter the impression that you don't really understand (and what parent understands the world of a teenager, right???).
Just something to think about.2 -
Guide her properly to lose the kilos then help her appreciate her sexy neck and shoulders. Swimming will help define her upper body but won’t turn her into Arnold. Remind her that a good neck and shoulders makes the lower body appear slimmer. 🏊♂️ Tell her to keep swimming!1
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I appreciate time for the training might be difficult, but how about suggesting triathlons/aquathons for fun? The cross training involved might help even things out.
Normalizing the look is a good point, is there a cross fit gym near you? Once or twice a week in that environment or similar might help.
I used to teach teenagers and once had a passionate argument with a group of girls about Serena Williams, and whether she was fat. It was shocking and sad that her phenomenal abilities were irrelevant as far as they were concerned. Although by the end of the debate they had things to think about!3 -
I agree with what everyone has said in terms of really trying to show her women who are strong swimmers. I also liked the idea of trying to get her into an environment where she's around strong women who are confident (at least outwardly) about having what could be seen as a muscular physique. I remember when I rock climbed competitively when I was your daughter's age and the numerous conversations my coach had with us about the importance of being healthy (and it was never in an awkward or imposing way).
The only thing I have to add would be actually getting her in touch with women who are strong swimmers. I think her coach is really doing a disservice in not being willing to try to understand why she's feeling discouraged about her body and the potential of having muscular shoulders. Getting in contact with a local college's women's swimming team could be useful in terms of allowing her to hear the perspective of older swimmers.2 -
This is a weird question for swimmers, serious ones. My daughter who is in her teens is swimming on and off since she was a baby and has got very serious about it this last year. She is borderline overweight, and definitely not all muscle, but certainly far more muscular than the average teen girl, especially upper body, like most swimmers. The problem is she has started complaining a lot about gains in the upper arms and back, which is a look she hates. Her coach is a guy and thinks she is crazy, so no tips from him.
Does anyone know if there is a way for a swimmer to somehow balance the muscle gains? She is not aiming for a ballerina-type look, she hates being bulkier in the upper body and hoping for something more balanced. She is currently seriously in the process of eating healthier to lose a few kilos, but while it is good for her health and performance, I doubt it will help with the unbalanced look she dislikes so much.
Usual training is 3 sessions per week: warm up, 30ish mins body weight strength training, short break followed by 90-120 min swimming, and she has no control over the program since it is a team. She could add an hour or two of something extra if it would help over the weekends, and her coach does encourage a couple of hours of cross training. He is into weight lifting and cycling, which are his go-to suggestions, but she hates both.
Aggelikik, will you please share a back view photo of your teen daughter, if she isn't too young (ie < 18 years)? It is fairly difficult to give suggestions without actually seeing what the problem is, if it exists. There might not be an issue. If she's closer to 13, it could be a child's plumpiness. If she's 14 - 16, her body might be acclimating to the hormonal adjustments. Many aren't their ideal as teens. It's an awkward stage for some.
ETA: If not a photo, measurements will be much appreciated.- Shoulder to shoulder
- Back width
- Back length to waist
- Shoulder circumference
- Bicep circumference
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deputy_randolph wrote: »I'm not sure if anyone suggested this...but maybe she needs to get into an environment where she is exposed to athletic women.
I do competitive powerlifting and am more built than the "average" woman. I hear nothing but positive and honest remarks about my body from other women at the gym.
I'm sure your daughter's peers have a huge influence on what she views as a "normal" female body (having been a teen girl I know "normal" meant skinny at the time). She might not like the weight training at first, but if she had some female role models around, she might come around to it...and change her perspective on her on body.
Good idea, I think this would help, so I will try encouraging her to join me at the gym even for one session per week. It is true, she is at that age where half the girls in high school are into all sorts of crazy diets to look very skinny or talking constantly about their imaginary fat rolls and so on. I check her friends social media activities and there is a ton of "wow look at how fat I am" posts, where I can only see really good looking slim girls complaining about not looking like models.3 -
When I was a swimmer I saw this reflected too. Then again I was a butterflier. I suggest she even it out by bulking up her legs instead of worrying about slimming down her shoulders.3
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