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Alcohol: Toxic in any amount, or beneficial in moderation, or does it depend on the person?
Orphia
Posts: 7,097 Member
in Debate Club
Would love to see any conclusive meta-studies, or even peer-reviewed research that shows the science is still inconclusive.
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Replies
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While alcohol may have some some health benefits, it definitely can cause the body harm, too. I think it's safer to keep that in-mind, rather than try to rationalize drinking as a healthy habit/lifestyle.8
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Tried the whole 1 glass of wine a day for about a month or so; just felt wrong/weird.
LFTs (AST actually) went up a bit to back it up; stopped because I feel better not drinking. Nothing wrong once in a blue moon in moderation of course1 -
Does it have to be one or the other? Either toxic in any amount or beneficial?
Possibly the answer is neither.11 -
Thanks Orphia for creating this board! I've been following the discussion on the other boards; it is an interesting one.
Here are my random thoughts:
If I hear that a person "drinks every day," my immediate reaction upon hearing that is that that person is veering very close to having a potentially problematic relationship with alcohol. I suppose there's always going to be a little old lady out there who truly does have just one 5 ounce glass of sherry in the evening, but my suspicion is that she would be the exception, rather than the rule. For the daily drinker, it's usually more than one drink, sometimes way more.
But I am open to hearing differing opinions about this.
And since we're citing studies, my understanding was always that per the federal government dietary guidelines, for women, drinking more than seven drinks per week (5 ounces counting as one glass of wine) puts you in the "heavy drinker" category. https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/appendix-9/
Is the "7 drinks per week" guideline in dispute? Perhaps some would say that it is too much-- and in order to be a "moderate drinker," it really should be fewer drinks than 7.
Once again, I'd love to hear others' views on this.3 -
"Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy."SuzySunshine99 wrote: »Does it have to be one or the other? Either toxic in any amount or beneficial?
Possibly the answer is neither.
Paracelsus
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This is a great topic! I have heard/read more than one doctor recently say that alcohol in any amount is a carcinogen, and while they might have a drink on a special occasion they stopped drinking otherwise and suggest folks cut it out entirely. I'll be interested to see if anyone knows where this new trend comes from. (I understand there have been previous times in pop history where alcohol was demonized - I just mean the latest wave of tee-totaling doctors I've been seeing)
Yet many traditional diets (including the Blue Zones) include a regular daily serving of wine or beer.
And many of my older Italian-American and German-American relatives lived into their 90's and while they never got sloshed, had a daily glass or mug.
I wonder if this is the same sort of "data" as that WHO report that made bacon a carcinogen?3 -
Cleosweetie wrote: »Thanks Orphia for creating this board! I've been following the discussion on the other boards; it is an interesting one.
Here are my random thoughts:
If I hear that a person "drinks every day," my immediate reaction upon hearing that is that that person is veering very close to having a potentially problematic relationship with alcohol. I suppose there's always going to be a little old lady out there who truly does have just one 5 ounce glass of sherry in the evening, but my suspicion is that she would be the exception, rather than the rule. For the daily drinker, it's usually more than one drink, sometimes way more.
But I am open to hearing differing opinions about this.
And since we're citing studies, my understanding was always that per the federal government dietary guidelines, for women, drinking more than seven drinks per week (5 ounces counting as one glass of wine) puts you in the "heavy drinker" category. https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/appendix-9/
Is the "7 drinks per week" guideline in dispute? Perhaps some would say that it is too much-- and in order to be a "moderate drinker," it really should be fewer drinks than 7.
Once again, I'd love to hear others' views on this.
I am not a little old lady
and I will have one glass of wine or one beer with dinner often. I don't think that is all that rare. Most of the people in my family since I was a child have done so, and my in-laws and friends I often have dinner with as well. Maybe it depends on where you're from? 7 -
@kinny72 -- thanks for weighing in! Good points. I do agree that it's all very relative. On my husband's side of the family, you're "a drinker" if you have two glasses of wine in one sitting. (Me.) Whereas in a circle of some really good family friends, they're cracking open champagne at 10am if it's a "special occasion." (Amazingly, there's always a special occasion.) And then they drink for most of the day.
Now that you mention it, I guess the people around me are more on either end of the spectrum -- hardly ever drink at all, or it's 2 min when they do drink.
I just know that I was really shocked to hear that 8 glasses of wine a week = heavy drinker.2 -
Cleosweetie wrote: »@kinny72 -- thanks for weighing in! Good points. I do agree that it's all very relative. On my husband's side of the family, you're "a drinker" if you have two glasses of wine in one sitting. (Me.) Whereas in a circle of some really good family friends, they're cracking open champagne at 10am if it's a "special occasion." (Amazingly, there's always a special occasion.) And then they drink for most of the day.
Now that you mention it, I guess the people around me are more on either end of the spectrum -- hardly ever drink at all, or it's 2 min when they do drink.
I just know that I was really shocked to hear that 8 glasses of wine a week = heavy drinker.
Oh yeah, I agree. I knew the rec for women was one drink a day, but I didn't realize there was so little wiggle room in there!1 -
My thought is that moderate alcohol is somewhat helpful for some issues (like heart health) while somewhat bad for other issues (like some cancers). I haven't seen reputable doctors telling people to start drinking if they don't already.1
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Lethal Dose studies would be the best bet to minimize bias. I've found a number of epidemiological studies, but no general physiological studies that aren't heavily biased.0
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I have a work colleague who admits to drinking a couple of bourbons daily and sees no problem with it. I worry because she is quite overweight and a heavy smoker. Her face is purple which she tries to disguise with heavy foundation and her teeth are a very dark colour. I dont think she is in the best of health, I suspect this has been her routine for many years. Its not doing her any favours thats for sure.5
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I don't know about poison, but I know it's a group 1 carcinogen (it's established as a fact that it increases the risk of developing certain types of cancer).
As for the cardiovascular benefits, they may not happen for everyone. There was a study a while back that basically concluded these benefits only apply to some people with a certain genotype. It was a case-control study. There was also one floating around last year that socioeconomic status may have something to do with that too.
There is no consensus yet, but I'm personally erring on the side of none is better than some, but some is better than a lot, and that it would do people good to find the smallest amount they can reasonably drink. My reasoning for that is silly and basically has to do with cancer being a more brutal disease than heart disease (having watched people die from both), so even if there are benefits, the risks outweigh them in my opinion.7 -
It may be a bit pedantic, but: Ethyl alcohol is regarded by the body as a poison, regardless of the dose. It's the one macronutrient (yes, alcohol is actually a separate macronutrient all its own) which the body will put all else on hold to oxidize until it is gone, and which has zero retention in the body.
With that said, I think "the dose makes the poison" applies in terms of deleterious effects upon the body. I've not seen any physiological studies that draw a line as to what that dose is and/or over what time. Not saying they don't exist (they may) - I just haven't seen them. I have seen some studies claiming that certain alcoholic drinks are beneficial in moderation, but IIRC it was other micronutrients in the drinks themselves which provided the benefits, not the alcohol itself (I could be wrong on this one - don't have any studies at hand to quote/link).
Anecdotally, I've seen a number of people close to me die and/or become extremely ill from alcohol-related diseases (all of who were very heavy drinkers/alcoholics). Again anecdotally, I also know a great number of people who drink alcohol in moderation and don't exhibit any signs of it negatively influencing their health.9 -
I have seen some studies claiming that certain alcoholic drinks are beneficial in moderation, but IIRC it was other micronutrients in the drinks themselves which provided the benefits, not the alcohol itself (I could be wrong on this one - don't have any studies at hand to quote/link).
Thanks for weighing in, @AnvilHead. I've seen these articles as well. However, within the last year there have been several "expose" type of articles written about how the studies touting the beneficial effects of alcohol were funded in part by the alcohol industry!
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Cleosweetie wrote: »@kinny72 -- thanks for weighing in! Good points. I do agree that it's all very relative. On my husband's side of the family, you're "a drinker" if you have two glasses of wine in one sitting. (Me.) Whereas in a circle of some really good family friends, they're cracking open champagne at 10am if it's a "special occasion." (Amazingly, there's always a special occasion.) And then they drink for most of the day.
Now that you mention it, I guess the people around me are more on either end of the spectrum -- hardly ever drink at all, or it's 2 min when they do drink.
I just know that I was really shocked to hear that 8 glasses of wine a week = heavy drinker.
So I was browsing this thread and got kind of curious about what my alcohol intake per week actually is. Of all my friends, I would probably classify myself as drinking the least alcohol -- I try to avoid it because I tend towards being a lightweight, and besides I'm small enough that the extra calories impact me quite a bit more than my friends. I also come from a place that doesn't really have a heavy drinking culture, so even though I live in the USA now, I've never really seen the point of more than a glass in one sitting, max two if it's a special occasion.
This week wasn't so bad -- 2.6 standard drinks. 4-5 drinks last week. 6 drinks week before that when I was on vacation. Not yet a heavy drinker that week, but not really that far off either. Which makes me realize, by this standard, virtually everyone I know that isn't a tee-totaler is a heavy drinker. It's not necessarily *that* surprising since we're all in our 20s/early 30s, but really makes me kinda worried for some people I know who definitely drink 3x more than I do on my heaviest week.1 -
Cleosweetie wrote: »Thanks Orphia for creating this board! I've been following the discussion on the other boards; it is an interesting one.
Here are my random thoughts:
If I hear that a person "drinks every day," my immediate reaction upon hearing that is that that person is veering very close to having a potentially problematic relationship with alcohol. I suppose there's always going to be a little old lady out there who truly does have just one 5 ounce glass of sherry in the evening, but my suspicion is that she would be the exception, rather than the rule. For the daily drinker, it's usually more than one drink, sometimes way more.
But I am open to hearing differing opinions about this.
And since we're citing studies, my understanding was always that per the federal government dietary guidelines, for women, drinking more than seven drinks per week (5 ounces counting as one glass of wine) puts you in the "heavy drinker" category. https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/appendix-9/
Is the "7 drinks per week" guideline in dispute? Perhaps some would say that it is too much-- and in order to be a "moderate drinker," it really should be fewer drinks than 7.
Once again, I'd love to hear others' views on this.
I had a 92 yr old friend once. He would walk around the neighborhood, flirting and checking on gardens he planted in the houses he owned and rented out. He tilled the soil for me in my yard and gave me tomato plants to put in them.
He said that when he was 70, the doctor told him he needed to stop drinking coffee and stop drinking alcohol if he wanted to live to see 80. When he was 80, the doctor told him he needed to stop drinking coffee and stop drinking alcohol if he wanted to live to see 90. When he was 90, they told him to keep doing whatever he was doing.
Notice his lifestyle: daily walks, strength exercise through gardening, landlording and all the mental stimulation that requires, he also went to several different churches when he needed prayer, so at any given time, he had hundreds of people praying for him, he ate food he grew himself, he often threw parties for his large family. He had immense social support and independence. The coffee and alcohol were additions to his great life, not cruches he used to get him through life. He had a miracle healing from paralysis when he was 40ish, so he had an appreciation for life that most people wouldn't.
I think once you turn to alcohol for escape is when it turns toxic.
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Cleosweetie wrote: »I have seen some studies claiming that certain alcoholic drinks are beneficial in moderation, but IIRC it was other micronutrients in the drinks themselves which provided the benefits, not the alcohol itself (I could be wrong on this one - don't have any studies at hand to quote/link).
Thanks for weighing in, @AnvilHead. I've seen these articles as well. However, within the last year there have been several "expose" type of articles written about how the studies touting the beneficial effects of alcohol were funded in part by the alcohol industry!
Study funding isn't necessarily a condemning factor. It's more relevant to examine the methodology of the study itself and/or any conflicts of interest in the people conducting the study.
There are a lot of industries which fund studies germane to their industry, because who's going to fund them if they don't? The cotton industry has no interest in funding a study about alcohol, the beef industry has no interest in funding a study about corn, etc. Most researchers can't fully fund their own studies (and all the equipment, etc. required), so they have to rely upon external funding or the studies won't get done.
Not saying there's never any underhanded stuff going on behind the scenes - just that a study being funded by the industry it's germane to doesn't automatically render it biased/invalid.13 -
Thanks for your input, @Anvilhead!
On a different note, the Lancet just published this study:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/23/health/global-alcohol-study/index.html
It says that at the end of the day, no amount of alcohol is good for you.
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There’s a good analysis of the Lancet paper here.
https://medium.com/wintoncentre/the-risks-of-alcohol-again-2ae8cb006a4a
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Cleosweetie wrote: »Thanks for your input, @Anvilhead!
On a different note, the Lancet just published this study:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/23/health/global-alcohol-study/index.html
It says that at the end of the day, no amount of alcohol is good for you.
A couple of the major issues I have with this study (in addition to the clickbait drama sound bites the study authors used to talk about it)-
First, it is still largely showing correlation, if I'm understanding it correctly. They aren't saying alcohol 100% caused all the deaths and diseases noted, just that people who drink are more likely to end up with one of them.
Second, they are including things like alcohol related violence and accidents, which isn't about "drinking alcohol", it's about "drinking alcohol irresponsibly". And I believe that any health conditions that are strongly linked to alcohol are at least usually linked to excessive drinking. I wonder what those statistics would look like if you were just looking at numbers for men drinking 1 or 2 per day and women drinking 1 per day, minus those who did so while driving or cleaning their guns. How many of those included in the study just had a glass of wine or a finger of Scotch while watching TV at night? How many of the bad outcomes were people drinking in excess, people who drank and drove or other stupid activities, and people who already had mental illness or violent lives and added alcohol to that mix?
Third, the bar graphs show that the vast majority of people drink some amount of alcohol. Isn't it possible that the small minority who never drink also never do lots of other things? I mean, if you did this study in Pennsylvania, a part of that 10% would be Amish, and they don't have cars or use anything electronic, grow a lot of their own food, and they rarely travel outside of their hometown. So if they live longer, is it because they don't drink, or is it one of the other things they don't do? (Not to say there aren't people who live completely typical lives and just choose not to drink, but statistically, that 10% includes people who abstain for moral or religious reasons and quite possibly make lots of other choices differently from the 90%).
To be fair, another thread made me rather stabby last night and I am taking it out on this study
I probably just need a beer... 16 -
A couple of the major issues I have with this study (in addition to the clickbait drama sound bites the study authors used to talk about it)-
First, it is still largely showing correlation, if I'm understanding it correctly. They aren't saying alcohol 100% caused all the deaths and diseases noted, just that people who drink are more likely to end up with one of them.
Second, they are including things like alcohol related violence and accidents, which isn't about "drinking alcohol", it's about "drinking alcohol irresponsibly". And I believe that any health conditions that are strongly linked to alcohol are at least usually linked to excessive drinking. I wonder what those statistics would look like if you were just looking at numbers for men drinking 1 or 2 per day and women drinking 1 per day, minus those who did so while driving or cleaning their guns. How many of those included in the study just had a glass of wine or a finger of Scotch while watching TV at night? How many of the bad outcomes were people drinking in excess, people who drank and drove or other stupid activities, and people who already had mental illness or violent lives and added alcohol to that mix?
Third, the bar graphs show that the vast majority of people drink some amount of alcohol. Isn't it possible that the small minority who never drink also never do lots of other things? I mean, if you did this study in Pennsylvania, a part of that 10% would be Amish, and they don't have cars or use anything electronic, grow a lot of their own food, and they rarely travel outside of their hometown. So if they live longer, is it because they don't drink, or is it one of the other things they don't do? (Not to say there aren't people who live completely typical lives and just choose not to drink, but statistically, that 10% includes people who abstain for moral or religious reasons and quite possibly make lots of other choices differently from the 90%).
To be fair, another thread made me rather stabby last night and I am taking it out on this study I probably just need a beer...
Love this post SO much.
Those that are unable to drink responsibly should not.
The comment: "no amount of alcohol is good for you" can be placed in almost any context depending on personal situations and beliefs. Wonder how much chocolate cake / ice cream / McDonalds / red meat / chicken / wheat products / soday / sugar / fat / non-fat / non-GMO / non-organic / exercise / no exercise / non whatever / is good for you?
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@kimny72 -- all good points.
Basically, this study is a Rorschach test-- everyone is going to take away what they want to see and justify what they are already doing, lol.5 -
Cleosweetie wrote: »Thanks Orphia for creating this board! I've been following the discussion on the other boards; it is an interesting one.
Here are my random thoughts:
If I hear that a person "drinks every day," my immediate reaction upon hearing that is that that person is veering very close to having a potentially problematic relationship with alcohol. I suppose there's always going to be a little old lady out there who truly does have just one 5 ounce glass of sherry in the evening, but my suspicion is that she would be the exception, rather than the rule. For the daily drinker, it's usually more than one drink, sometimes way more.
But I am open to hearing differing opinions about this.
And since we're citing studies, my understanding was always that per the federal government dietary guidelines, for women, drinking more than seven drinks per week (5 ounces counting as one glass of wine) puts you in the "heavy drinker" category. https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/appendix-9/
Is the "7 drinks per week" guideline in dispute? Perhaps some would say that it is too much-- and in order to be a "moderate drinker," it really should be fewer drinks than 7.
Once again, I'd love to hear others' views on this.
I am not a little old lady and I will have one glass of wine or one beer with dinner often. I don't think that is all that rare. Most of the people in my family since I was a child have done so, and my in-laws and friends I often have dinner with as well. Maybe it depends on where you're from?
Just dropping in to reinforce the bolded - I too usually have a glass of wine in the evening. I even measure out 5 oz., because I have a terrible eye for quantity.
I also agree with others that context and dosage matter.4 -
https://www.thedailybeast.com/no-alcohol-is-the-only-safe-amount-of-alcohol-for-you-study-says
Here's another clickbait headline for you, @kimny72!
It will be interesting/amusing to see all the different angles on this study. FYI, apparently the Gates Foundation funded it.0 -
Cleosweetie wrote: »https://www.thedailybeast.com/no-alcohol-is-the-only-safe-amount-of-alcohol-for-you-study-says
Here's another clickbait headline for you, @kimny72!
It will be interesting/amusing to see all the different angles on this study. FYI, apparently the Gates Foundation funded it.
Just skimmed it, but I like this quote the best I think "Gakidou told CNN that she was aware of the studies that showed better health with moderate drinking, but dismissed it and said that alcohol was almost universally a problematic health issue." Oh, okay, well I guess we're just dismissing any study that didn't agree with yours. That makes things easier. :noway:
On a related note, we are taking my mom out to dinner for her birthday tonight, and I am for sure having a lovely alcoholic beverage with my dinner and will not be even the tiniest bit worried that I am putting myself in the wrong statistical column
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Waste of calories to me personally. To think I used to brew! LOL4
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I'm the OP. Thanks, all, for an interesting discussion.
My brother-in-law died of liver failure from alcoholism on Thursday.
I had no idea he had liver problems when I started this topic.
I'm stepping out of the discussion due to emotion for now.36 -
I don’t have any hard-won research (so you may ignore me if you wish), but I had a nurse (not a doctor, but still someone full of smarts) give it to me straight “I don’t think you should drink.” As in, not even half a sip/please stay completely dry.* Of course, that implies that I have countless medical reasons to abstain, so be dry I will. That puts me in the “toxic in any amount” camp (and makes me wish I could politely ask the world to do the same, but I can’t and that’s alright by me-this (well, where I am) is America! Land of the free, home of the brave because of the brave.)
*In addition to the above persuasion/knowledge of my specific health risks, I am also aware of moral, social and public safety implications that push me even further into the dry side.
Edited to squash an exhaustion-fueled typo4
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