Ketogenic diet for weight loss:yes or no?
Replies
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A ketogenic diet can work wonders for some people. I know people who have diabetes who can really keep it under control with diet if they go extremely low carb, and some people who don't seem to be able to control their carb eating are more successful by eliminating most carbs from their diets. You do need to be careful about high protein diets if you have kidney problems, even early kidney problems, so check with a doctor.
The ketogenic diet is not a high protein diet. A proper ketogenic diet is low carb, MODERATE PROTEIN, high fat, usually a good ratio would be around 5% carbs/30% Protein/ 65% Fat. Protein should be around .4-.6g per lb of lean body mass for most normally active people.
When it comes to kidney disease, 30% protein could easily be a problem. If you cut any macro back significantly, you're likely to eat more of the other two to make up the difference. I'm not saying that people shouldn't do ketogenic diets, just that there are precautions to take.0 -
A ketogenic diet can work wonders for some people. I know people who have diabetes who can really keep it under control with diet if they go extremely low carb, and some people who don't seem to be able to control their carb eating are more successful by eliminating most carbs from their diets. You do need to be careful about high protein diets if you have kidney problems, even early kidney problems, so check with a doctor.
The ketogenic diet is not a high protein diet. A proper ketogenic diet is low carb, MODERATE PROTEIN, high fat, usually a good ratio would be around 5% carbs/30% Protein/ 65% Fat. Protein should be around .4-.6g per lb of lean body mass for most normally active people.
When it comes to kidney disease, 30% protein could easily be a problem. If you cut any macro back significantly, you're likely to eat more of the other two to make up the difference. I'm not saying that people shouldn't do ketogenic diets, just that there are precautions to take.
I agree precautions should be taken. That is why I specifically said that it is a moderate protein diet. Many people have the idea that it is high protein. Fat should be the replacement for carbs, not protein. You are correct too much protein is bad! A percentage can be a bad thing as you have said. This is why I gave both a number and percentage. I am not disagreeing with you. I am just explaining within the context of the ketogenic diet.0 -
The only reason for such an extreme diet would be if you had a medical condition and it was recommended by your doctor/dietitian. For weight loss, going to such an extreme could actually hamper your long-term goal of *keeping* the extra fat off because you will not have learned proper portion sizes and you will likely gain back your losses and then some, once you have gone back to normal eating.
Been eating keto for over 4 months. Why do you think that I don't know what proper portion sizes are? I weigh and measure all my food just like most of MFP does. I understand portion sizes very well, thank you very much. As far as I'm concerned, this is a lifestyle change. Anyone that thinks, after losing weight on any diet, that they can go back to 'normal eating' and not gain it all back is sadly mistaken.
Which is why that for *most* people, it's better to learn moderation of their favorite foods rather than simply avoiding them. I could go a month or two without ice cream, but not much longer than that.0 -
The only reason for such an extreme diet would be if you had a medical condition and it was recommended by your doctor/dietitian. For weight loss, going to such an extreme could actually hamper your long-term goal of *keeping* the extra fat off because you will not have learned proper portion sizes and you will likely gain back your losses and then some, once you have gone back to normal eating.
Being ketogenic is not "extreme" and is a natural human state (at least it was before our diets became dominated by sugar and processed grains). Most doctors know *kitten* about nutrition. Metabolic syndrome, with it's many effects, one of which is excess fat storage, is indeed a "medical condition" -albeit unrecognized except by Metabolic and sometimes diabetic specialists.
I agree that a ketogenic lifestyle is useless as a temporary "diet".
"Learning portion sizes" and "normal eating", what a crock. If one is malnourished, using "willpower" to control "portions" is completely futile.
Eliminating bread, peanuts, milk, cheese, beans, corn, etc,. ad nausem, is not about health unless you have allergies or intolerance. It is entirely unnecessary for anyone else. You'll only take my chocolate from my cold, dead hands!
I'm not sure you understand the diet. Full fat cheese is encouraged for most people. Dairy is only removed if a person is having trouble with processing it. Milk has sugar (lactose) so yes this is removed but Heavy cream is used instead. Peanuts are not the best but can be incorporated. Chocolate is allowed, just dark chocolate or unsweetened chocolate sweetened with no carb sugar substitutes. Bread, beans and corn, yes they are removed. But you can eat other veggies and full fat dressings, meats with fat, chicken with skin, all of the good tasting fatty foods that are considered "bad foods" for a low fat diet are encouraged. But this must be in conjunction with low carbs. High carb with high fat is very bad.
That's one of the things I find humorous about the criticisms of keto. The philosophy behind keto and the philosophy behind IIFYM are basically exactly the same -- the macros that keto fits to are just quite different.
With keto, one could say that after ensuring that their daily essential nutrients are taken in, you can eat whatever you would like that fits your macros. Keto isn't philosophically intertwined with paleo or eating clean.
Took the words right out of my mouth about misconceptions...thank you both!0 -
A ketogenic diet can work wonders for some people. I know people who have diabetes who can really keep it under control with diet if they go extremely low carb, and some people who don't seem to be able to control their carb eating are more successful by eliminating most carbs from their diets. You do need to be careful about high protein diets if you have kidney problems, even early kidney problems, so check with a doctor.
The ketogenic diet is not a high protein diet. A proper ketogenic diet is low carb, MODERATE PROTEIN, high fat, usually a good ratio would be around 5% carbs/30% Protein/ 65% Fat. Protein should be around .4-.6g per lb of lean body mass for most normally active people.
When it comes to kidney disease, 30% protein could easily be a problem. If you cut any macro back significantly, you're likely to eat more of the other two to make up the difference. I'm not saying that people shouldn't do ketogenic diets, just that there are precautions to take.
Precautions should definitely be taken when switching your diet (to anything), and it's always a good idea to get blood work done and have good communication with your doctor.
I'm not sure how diet is changed for those with kidney disease. For a normal person, though (and I know you weren't making this assertion, I just feel like it's worth mentioning) 30% protein is pretty normal and harmless. At 2000 calories a day, you're talking 150g of protein. For what it's worth, I actually would recommend lower than that for a ketogenic diet, but not from a kidney-sparing point of view.0 -
The only reason for such an extreme diet would be if you had a medical condition and it was recommended by your doctor/dietitian. For weight loss, going to such an extreme could actually hamper your long-term goal of *keeping* the extra fat off because you will not have learned proper portion sizes and you will likely gain back your losses and then some, once you have gone back to normal eating.
Being ketogenic is not "extreme" and is a natural human state (at least it was before our diets became dominated by sugar and processed grains). Most doctors know *kitten* about nutrition. Metabolic syndrome, with it's many effects, one of which is excess fat storage, is indeed a "medical condition" -albeit unrecognized except by Metabolic and sometimes diabetic specialists.
I agree that a ketogenic lifestyle is useless as a temporary "diet".
"Learning portion sizes" and "normal eating", what a crock. If one is malnourished, using "willpower" to control "portions" is completely futile.
Eliminating bread, peanuts, milk, cheese, beans, corn, etc,. ad nausem, is not about health unless you have allergies or intolerance. It is entirely unnecessary for anyone else. You'll only take my chocolate from my cold, dead hands!
I'm not sure you understand the diet. Full fat cheese is encouraged for most people. Dairy is only removed if a person is having trouble with processing it. Milk has sugar (lactose) so yes this is removed but Heavy cream is used instead. Peanuts are not the best but can be incorporated. Chocolate is allowed, just dark chocolate or unsweetened chocolate sweetened with no carb sugar substitutes. Bread, beans and corn, yes they are removed. But you can eat other veggies and full fat dressings, meats with fat, chicken with skin, all of the good tasting fatty foods that are considered "bad foods" for a low fat diet are encouraged. But this must be in conjunction with low carbs. High carb with high fat is very bad.
I was thinking paleo, which does eliminate dairy entirely, as well as peanuts (my favorite snack). Beans and cornbread is actually a very healthy meal, inexpensive, and quite delicious.0 -
In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.I'll be upfront and say it works better for fat loss in the short term (lots of competitive body builders and fitness models do this for comps) however long term sustaining it takes a lot of discipline. It basically works by depleting lots of carbs from the system and utilizing protein and fat as energy sources. What most won't tell you is that carbs when absorbed hold glycogen and water in the muscle and liver at higher amounts than on a ketogenic diet. So initially the large weight loss comes from loss of water and glycogen. Touch any starchy, processed carb after that........................and it's not uncommon for a big weight gain (due to water and glycogen retention).
If you're looking to build muscle over the long haul, it's not gonna happen on ketogenic diet since there's lack of mTOR reaction.
If one isn't willing to stay off say cake, ice cream, or other sugary items for life, then chances are this isn't the diet they should use for weight loss.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
^I agree with much of the above. I do NOT think a ketogenic lifestyle should be used as a quick fix and anyone who decides to increase carbs needs to do so with caution, at a slow pace. Yes, there is water weight loss, but I can assure you that I did not lose 63 pounds of just water. My body is burning fat like crazy. I have also NOT lost muscle and am indeed building muscle. Muscle can be built while ketogenic because our body can manufacture glucose for the muscles (poster above is more knowledgeable about muscle building than myself, no doubt). Also, no ketogenic lifestyle is completely absent of carbohydrates. Mine come from vegetables for the most part.
Yes, if one is waiting for the day to go back to eating a high sugar/grain diet, then this is NOT the lifestyle for them. However, it IS my permanent lifestyle and it IS completely healthy. The health problems that have been resolved are nothing short of amazing. No piece of cake is worth poor health imo. For me, this lifestyle is not "hard" or "restrictive" but I do understand that it seems that way for other people.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.I'll be upfront and say it works better for fat loss in the short term (lots of competitive body builders and fitness models do this for comps) however long term sustaining it takes a lot of discipline. It basically works by depleting lots of carbs from the system and utilizing protein and fat as energy sources. What most won't tell you is that carbs when absorbed hold glycogen and water in the muscle and liver at higher amounts than on a ketogenic diet. So initially the large weight loss comes from loss of water and glycogen. Touch any starchy, processed carb after that........................and it's not uncommon for a big weight gain (due to water and glycogen retention).
If you're looking to build muscle over the long haul, it's not gonna happen on ketogenic diet since there's lack of mTOR reaction.
If one isn't willing to stay off say cake, ice cream, or other sugary items for life, then chances are this isn't the diet they should use for weight loss.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
^I agree with much of the above. I do NOT think a ketogenic lifestyle should be used as a quick fix and anyone who decides to increase carbs needs to do so with caution, at a slow pace. Yes, there is water weight loss, but I can assure you that I did not lose 63 pounds of just water. My body is burning fat like crazy. I have also NOT lost muscle and am indeed building muscle. Muscle can be built while ketogenic because our body can manufacture glucose for the muscles (poster above is more knowledgeable about muscle building than myself, no doubt). Also, no ketogenic lifestyle is completely absent of carbohydrates. Mine come from vegetables for the most part.
Yes, if one is waiting for the day to go back to eating a high sugar/grain diet, then this is NOT the lifestyle for them. However, it IS my permanent lifestyle and it IS completely healthy. The health problems that have been resolved are nothing short of amazing. No piece of cake is worth poor health imo. For me, this lifestyle is not "hard" or "restrictive" but I do understand that it seems that way for other people.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Thank you! I'll check it out0 -
Comparison of energy-restricted very low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets on weight loss and body composition in overweight men and women.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/155332500 -
I have lost about 1/2 my weight keto and the other 1/2 IIFYM and I have lost ZERO lean mass according to a calculator on bodybuilding.com. Anyhow, I attribute this to making sure I get 1g of protein/lb of lean mass and lifting. You don't need to be keto to keep your lean mass and lost strictly fat, you need only provide your body with adequate protein (which is different for everyone)0
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In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I stopped reading at this point... what nonsense:KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass.0 -
The only reason for such an extreme diet would be if you had a medical condition and it was recommended by your doctor/dietitian. For weight loss, going to such an extreme could actually hamper your long-term goal of *keeping* the extra fat off because you will not have learned proper portion sizes and you will likely gain back your losses and then some, once you have gone back to normal eating.
Being ketogenic is not "extreme" and is a natural human state (at least it was before our diets became dominated by sugar and processed grains). Most doctors know *kitten* about nutrition. Metabolic syndrome, with it's many effects, one of which is excess fat storage, is indeed a "medical condition" -albeit unrecognized except by Metabolic and sometimes diabetic specialists.
I agree that a ketogenic lifestyle is useless as a temporary "diet".
"Learning portion sizes" and "normal eating", what a crock. If one is malnourished, using "willpower" to control "portions" is completely futile.
I love you!0 -
I won't get into the metabolic discussion, because there are WAY too many armchair scientists on this site, but it come down to one thing...can you do it for the rest of your life? If not, then find something else.0
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The only reason for such an extreme diet would be if you had a medical condition and it was recommended by your doctor/dietitian. For weight loss, going to such an extreme could actually hamper your long-term goal of *keeping* the extra fat off because you will not have learned proper portion sizes and you will likely gain back your losses and then some, once you have gone back to normal eating.
Been eating keto for over 4 months. Why do you think that I don't know what proper portion sizes are? I weigh and measure all my food just like most of MFP does. I understand portion sizes very well, thank you very much. As far as I'm concerned, this is a lifestyle change. Anyone that thinks, after losing weight on any diet, that they can go back to 'normal eating' and not gain it all back is sadly mistaken.
Which is why that for *most* people, it's better to learn moderation of their favorite foods rather than simply avoiding them. I could go a month or two without ice cream, but not much longer than that.
This is the problem with so many of your posts slamming lifestyles that you do not understand. When there are health issues to do with metabolism, "moderation" is a myth. Why should someone continue doing something that fails just because people like you think it's "balanced" and that they are suffering without their "favourite" foods. My favourite foods are still in my diet. My favourites have always been steak, bacon, pork chops, ribs, butter, green salads, etc.
And guess what feels better than anything tastes? Perfect health.0 -
Short answer: YES!
Long answer:
I personally love being on a ketogenic diet.
I'm not hungry or starving, I eat waaayy more vegetables now then I even have in my entire life, feel healthier, and have more energy.
I mainly consume Butter, Avocados, Meat, Veggies, Cheese, Nuts...
What's not to love?
But, weight loss is ultimately caused because of a calorie deficit.
I figure, we all have to restrict something for weight loss. For me, being on a low carb, high fat diet allows me to eat delicious food, stay under my allotted calories, and not feel deprived.
To each their own though, there's no one way cookie cutter sure way to lose weight, we all have opinions, you just have to figure out what works for you, and stick with it.
Good luck!:drinker:
Awesome!!!0 -
In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.I'll be upfront and say it works better for fat loss in the short term (lots of competitive body builders and fitness models do this for comps) however long term sustaining it takes a lot of discipline. It basically works by depleting lots of carbs from the system and utilizing protein and fat as energy sources. What most won't tell you is that carbs when absorbed hold glycogen and water in the muscle and liver at higher amounts than on a ketogenic diet. So initially the large weight loss comes from loss of water and glycogen. Touch any starchy, processed carb after that........................and it's not uncommon for a big weight gain (due to water and glycogen retention).
If you're looking to build muscle over the long haul, it's not gonna happen on ketogenic diet since there's lack of mTOR reaction.
If one isn't willing to stay off say cake, ice cream, or other sugary items for life, then chances are this isn't the diet they should use for weight loss.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
^I agree with much of the above. I do NOT think a ketogenic lifestyle should be used as a quick fix and anyone who decides to increase carbs needs to do so with caution, at a slow pace. Yes, there is water weight loss, but I can assure you that I did not lose 63 pounds of just water. My body is burning fat like crazy. I have also NOT lost muscle and am indeed building muscle. Muscle can be built while ketogenic because our body can manufacture glucose for the muscles (poster above is more knowledgeable about muscle building than myself, no doubt). Also, no ketogenic lifestyle is completely absent of carbohydrates. Mine come from vegetables for the most part.
Yes, if one is waiting for the day to go back to eating a high sugar/grain diet, then this is NOT the lifestyle for them. However, it IS my permanent lifestyle and it IS completely healthy. The health problems that have been resolved are nothing short of amazing. No piece of cake is worth poor health imo. For me, this lifestyle is not "hard" or "restrictive" but I do understand that it seems that way for other people.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Thank you for the link. Certainly I have lost some muscle due to not lugging 240 pounds around anymore but i am also a hell of a lot more active. I lost weight fast in the beginning now i lose very, very slow. I agree that if one is building muscle then weight is not being lost rapidly. However, I find it hard to think that our ancestors lost all of their muscle mass in times of famine... or how did they survive a famine? Either way, i do some sprinting and lifting heavy things, but won't get down to a serious muscle building routine while I am operating at a calorie deficit.0 -
In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I stopped reading at this point... what nonsense:KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass.
Yes, it is. We wouldn't even be around as a species if that were true, or only the humans that lived in tropical zones would have survived. That just isn't logical. I live with Inuit people. I have no idea how they hunted whales, seals, caribou, polar bears etc, and survived in such a cold climate, with no muscle mass.0 -
:drinker: :drinker: :drinker: Ketogenic LIFESTYLE for permanent weight loss: ABSOLUTELY :drinker: :drinker: :drinker:
No longer on insulin resistant and Type 2 meds, no more depression, sleeping great, full of energy.. blood work is fantastic since November 2012 lost 64 pounds.
To me its not a diet as I will follow the eating plan even after I lose the rest of my weight. Its truly saved my life .
(haters need not reply to my post)
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Thoughts and reasoning behind it, anyone? Thanks
I did keto for many months. I highly recommend it for people who it would be a good fit for.
Is OP a good fit for keto? Not really.
Who is a good fit for keto? Someone who needs to lose a lot of weight (>40 pounds).
OP only needs to lose 20 pounds. Keto will cut that 20 pounds out in water weight alone within the first couple weeks. OP will then stop the diet and gain all the water weight back making OP a sad panda. Unless OP stays with keto for at least two months after reaching target weight to allow her body to normalize water weight after induction she will not like keto.
Why is keto good? Because it makes it very easy to eat within a calorie deficit. Fat and protein fill you up fast and leave you satiated longer than carby foods. Highly processed carbs (like sugar) have a recurrence effect where when you eat some, your body craves more leading to constant cravings.0 -
I would like to hear your argument on this?In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I stopped reading at this point... what nonsense:KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass.0 -
Not my argument; feel free to look up studies done on very low carb ketogenic diets. You don't even have far to search since some links were already posted in this very thread.
I would like to hear your argument on this?In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I stopped reading at this point... what nonsense:KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass.0 -
Welcome to refute it with peer reviewed clinical study showing it doesn't happen.In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I stopped reading at this point... what nonsense:KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I have and will continue to do so! You stated it was nonsense, and I was just curious on why you think that. Don't get me wrong, I just like hearing both sides of the argument.
Not my argument; feel free to look up studies done on very low carb ketogenic diets. You don't even have far to search since some links were already posted in this very thread.
I would like to hear your argument on this?In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I stopped reading at this point... what nonsense:KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass.0 -
The only reason for such an extreme diet would be if you had a medical condition and it was recommended by your doctor/dietitian. For weight loss, going to such an extreme could actually hamper your long-term goal of *keeping* the extra fat off because you will not have learned proper portion sizes and you will likely gain back your losses and then some, once you have gone back to normal eating.
Been eating keto for over 4 months. Why do you think that I don't know what proper portion sizes are? I weigh and measure all my food just like most of MFP does. I understand portion sizes very well, thank you very much. As far as I'm concerned, this is a lifestyle change. Anyone that thinks, after losing weight on any diet, that they can go back to 'normal eating' and not gain it all back is sadly mistaken.
Well said. I also follow a Keto diet and have no problem with portion control. In fact, I have even better portion control now than I ever did before. For me, this is "normal eating" and why would I ever go back to eating foods that make my body sick and unhealthy? Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to eat carbs to be healthy. Your body has the ability to make any glucose it thinks it needs.
Keto is not a temporary diet (verb) for weight loss. It is a diet (noun) for healthy living for people who are insulin resistant, Type 2 Diabetic, or just have trouble processing carbs properly (metaboolic syndrome - if you have it, you know it's real based on your personal experiences regardless of what anyone else who doesn't have it claims). There is no one diet or way of eating that fits everyone. Because Keto might not be what your body needs, does not make it extreme or unhealthy for others. In fact, I am more healthy now that I follow a Ketogenic diet than before. My labwork from my doctor proves this. My Diabetes is well controlled, my cholesterol and triglycerides are good, as well as all my other lab readings. I've been able to stop taking all my meds because now I eat healthy for my body. Oh, and bonus, I'm losing weight and learning to have a healthy relationship with food.
If you don't need a Keto diet, then you probably will find it difficult to follow and stick with and might even not feel good eating that way. I would love to tell everyone that they should eat Keto because it's the healthiest thing out there, but THERE IS NO ONE AND ONLY WAY OF EATING FOR EVERYONE, BECAUSE EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. I don't know why that concept seems to be so hard for people to understand, but it is.0 -
The link doesn't say one loses ALL of their muscle mass, but a significant amount of it.
In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.I'll be upfront and say it works better for fat loss in the short term (lots of competitive body builders and fitness models do this for comps) however long term sustaining it takes a lot of discipline. It basically works by depleting lots of carbs from the system and utilizing protein and fat as energy sources. What most won't tell you is that carbs when absorbed hold glycogen and water in the muscle and liver at higher amounts than on a ketogenic diet. So initially the large weight loss comes from loss of water and glycogen. Touch any starchy, processed carb after that........................and it's not uncommon for a big weight gain (due to water and glycogen retention).
If you're looking to build muscle over the long haul, it's not gonna happen on ketogenic diet since there's lack of mTOR reaction.
If one isn't willing to stay off say cake, ice cream, or other sugary items for life, then chances are this isn't the diet they should use for weight loss.
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^I agree with much of the above. I do NOT think a ketogenic lifestyle should be used as a quick fix and anyone who decides to increase carbs needs to do so with caution, at a slow pace. Yes, there is water weight loss, but I can assure you that I did not lose 63 pounds of just water. My body is burning fat like crazy. I have also NOT lost muscle and am indeed building muscle. Muscle can be built while ketogenic because our body can manufacture glucose for the muscles (poster above is more knowledgeable about muscle building than myself, no doubt). Also, no ketogenic lifestyle is completely absent of carbohydrates. Mine come from vegetables for the most part.
Yes, if one is waiting for the day to go back to eating a high sugar/grain diet, then this is NOT the lifestyle for them. However, it IS my permanent lifestyle and it IS completely healthy. The health problems that have been resolved are nothing short of amazing. No piece of cake is worth poor health imo. For me, this lifestyle is not "hard" or "restrictive" but I do understand that it seems that way for other people.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942
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Thank you for the link. Certainly I have lost some muscle due to not lugging 240 pounds around anymore but i am also a hell of a lot more active. I lost weight fast in the beginning now i lose very, very slow. I agree that if one is building muscle then weight is not being lost rapidly. However, I find it hard to think that our ancestors lost all of their muscle mass in times of famine... or how did they survive a famine? Either way, i do some sprinting and lifting heavy things, but won't get down to a serious muscle building routine while I am operating at a calorie deficit.
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Well, I'm sure they wore clothes. And again, the link doesn't state that ALL muscle mass is lost. Some one relatively lean in muscle wouldn't lose much compared to an obese person on the same type of diet.In ANY weight loss there will be some muscle loss. There is no dispute amongst any journals of medicine or physiology on this. The amount lost will depend on some variables. And building muscle on calorie deficit, as well as being ketogenic is highly unlikely. To build muscle you are adding mass. To add mass, then weight increases. To variably "exchange" fat energy for muscle increase isn't as easy as it sounds. Here's a thread I posted on ketogenic diets and muscle building.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diets+don't+build+muscle#posts-12328942
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I stopped reading at this point... what nonsense:KETOGENIC DIETS DRIVE AN EXTRAORDINARY LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS
While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass.
Yes, it is. We wouldn't even be around as a species if that were true, or only the humans that lived in tropical zones would have survived. That just isn't logical. I live with Inuit people. I have no idea how they hunted whales, seals, caribou, polar bears etc, and survived in such a cold climate, with no muscle mass.
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I must have had amazing abs because I've been losing in the mid-section. This muscle loss discussion is nonsensical, you're losing weight and it's mostly body fat.0
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Of course it is. Science lies.I must have had amazing abs because I've been losing in the mid-section. This muscle loss discussion is nonsensical, you're losing weight and it's mostly body fat.
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Of course it is. Science lies.I must have had amazing abs because I've been losing in the mid-section. This muscle loss discussion is nonsensical, you're losing weight and it's mostly body fat.
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"You're losing weight and it's mostly body fat."
You actually disagree with that, ninerbuff? That would mean you believe that you're losing more weight from muscle than fat -- I'd be interested in seeing anything that backs that belief up.0 -
I don't disagree. I was being sarcastic about the "muscle loss being nonsensical". The responses are implying that ALL muscle is being lost when the article doesn't state that.
Of course it is. Science lies.I must have had amazing abs because I've been losing in the mid-section. This muscle loss discussion is nonsensical, you're losing weight and it's mostly body fat.
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"You're losing weight and it's mostly body fat."
You actually disagree with that, ninerbuff? That would mean you believe that you're losing more weight from muscle than fat -- I'd be interested in seeing anything that backs that belief up.
Research DOES show one loses more fat on ketogenic than any other diet when calorie values are the same. I don't dispute that since it's been researched and confirmed. However, the loss of muscle is also higher in ketogenic groups. That's what science says.
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