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Science vs. Scruples
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »Honestly, yes I probably am downplaying assault. Are you "upplaying" it, or is that my own sensitivities impacting how I read/interpret your post? IMO, rape is not the same thing as grabbing someone's butt. But both are labeled as assault (at least as I understand it here in the States). And that was my point - not everyone who has been accused of assault should be viewed or treated the same way. Different situations can and do have very different circumstances. Some people are scumbags, thru and thu, no doubt. But not everyone.
A grope and a rape are never treated equally. Not by anyone, not by any justice system in any country. That’s not your opinion, that’s facts. If you are downplaying what he did do with “well it’s not like he raped anyone” that is... wow. What he actually did do is violate multiple women’s personal space, made them feel uncomfortable and maybe even afraid for their safety at work, possibly restricting their opportunities for career advancement. This behaviour hurts people, it can affect self esteem, confidence, where you feel able to work and be welcome and since he then tried to label one of the women involved as a fantasist that could affect how potential employers and sponsors view her character and she could lose out financially. He did this repeatedly, with apparently no fear of ever being called out and you have to assume would have continued until he was made to stop. Is that not enough to be angry about?
I think the issue is this.
If something a crime then it should be punished within the criminal justice system. If something is not a crime then is it then the role of the public to exact whatever punishment they see fit through public pressure?
If we all agree groping is wrong then it should be a crime and if someone gropes someone it should be a criminal offense....the punishment given and enforced by the judicial system. The issue is if the person isnt convicted and therefore is not punished quite often the public basically attempts to hang them in the court of public opinion. And for that to happen all it takes is for some members of the public to just be convinced the person is guilty for whatever reason.
I get that....but it also makes me uncomfortable. I feel like we have a justice system for a reason and if someone should be punished for bad behavior it should be through that system where there is some accountability and clear punishments....not via social media and ostracism or job loss.
I don't know that I agree with the premise that everything that's morally wrong should be illegal. I think most people would agree that lying is generally wrong, even if you're not under oath. But it's something we enforce socially rather than legally. Bigamy is illegal, but telling half a dozen people "you're the most special person in my life, and I love only you" isn't. But that's not because most people think it's perfectly acceptable.
Also, I'm not sure that "if we all agree" is a good setup for anything - because when does that ever happen?
Aaron_K123 wrote: »sunfastrose wrote: »Anyone else find the hilarity behind the use of the "pound sign" # in this?
PoundMeToo
I should have stopped reading here; this "joke" is so puerile that I don't know how I could have believed any discussion of value would be in this post.I see it as a farce and the inevitable conclusion of worshiping celebrities. Assuming both parties are responsible adults of sound mind then it is up to both to accept the responsibility that comes with power and autonomy. You can't desire power without the responsibility that comes with it. Peter Parker would still be crying in a bedroom somewhere and the story would have sucked, much like every victim narrative.
The women were at professional conferences and events associated with them. What are they meant to be held responsible for? Talking to other people in their profession while believing they should be safe from being treated as sexual objects? What hussies, believing that they should be accorded respect.
I bow to your shaming skills.
Was a crime committed? ...or does that matter? ...offense has been committed and the mob demands blood.
For what it is worth I think your joke towards the metoo movement was crass and inconsiderate of what I think is a lot of legitimate suffering and problems in our society that need to be addressed. That said if you want to make a crass joke in public that is your prerogative and I'm not going to jump down your throat about it or pretend that it was anything other than a joke....just makes me lose a bit of respect. There are better ways to handle it.
My consideration runs low when convictions are handed out without due process and based on hearsay. Human beings don't get upset at statements that are false. Emotion requires an element of truth.
How many #metoo accusations resulted in criminal convictions or even indictments? How many #metoo accusations were provably false?
I am taking this personally and emotionally invested because I have spent the better part of a my life working with and helping actual rape survivors regain some semblance of normalcy.
I have a close colleague who was falsely accused of rape. I was brought into this accusers false story, but luckily for me I reportedly took the "victim" to an abortion clinic - I had the luxury of being perceived as an "ally". While my friend's life was torn apart the individual making the false accusation never experienced any repercussions from her actions. My friend was on the brink of suicide and this still haunts him 20 years later.
Are there better ways to handle it? Possibly, but supporting the pyramid scheme of victim hierarchy is not a viable solution. It has demonstrably made society worse.
If your claim that people don't get upset at false statements is accurate, why was your friend upset at the false accusation? Based on your argument, he shouldn't have been, because "emotion requires an element of truth."7 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »sunfastrose wrote: »Anyone else find the hilarity behind the use of the "pound sign" # in this?
PoundMeToo
I should have stopped reading here; this "joke" is so puerile that I don't know how I could have believed any discussion of value would be in this post.I see it as a farce and the inevitable conclusion of worshiping celebrities. Assuming both parties are responsible adults of sound mind then it is up to both to accept the responsibility that comes with power and autonomy. You can't desire power without the responsibility that comes with it. Peter Parker would still be crying in a bedroom somewhere and the story would have sucked, much like every victim narrative.
The women were at professional conferences and events associated with them. What are they meant to be held responsible for? Talking to other people in their profession while believing they should be safe from being treated as sexual objects? What hussies, believing that they should be accorded respect.
I bow to your shaming skills.
Was a crime committed? ...or does that matter? ...offense has been committed and the mob demands blood.
For what it is worth I think your joke towards the metoo movement was crass and inconsiderate of what I think is a lot of legitimate suffering and problems in our society that need to be addressed. That said if you want to make a crass joke in public that is your prerogative and I'm not going to jump down your throat about it or pretend that it was anything other than a joke....just makes me lose a bit of respect. There are better ways to handle it.
My consideration runs low when convictions are handed out without due process and based on hearsay. Human beings don't get upset at statements that are false. Emotion requires an element of truth.
How many #metoo accusations resulted in criminal convictions or even indictments? How many #metoo accusations were provably false?
I am taking this personally and emotionally invested because I have spent the better part of a my life working with and helping actual rape survivors regain some semblance of normalcy.
I have a close colleague who was falsely accused of rape. I was brought into this accusers false story, but luckily for me I reportedly took the "victim" to an abortion clinic - I had the luxury of being perceived as an "ally". While my friend's life was torn apart the individual making the false accusation never experienced any repercussions from her actions. My friend was on the brink of suicide and this still haunts him 20 years later.
Are there better ways to handle it? Possibly, but supporting the pyramid scheme of victim hierarchy is not a viable solution. It has demonstrably made society worse.
Not based on hearsay, and not false. The most recent incidents were witnessed. This was ongoing, repeated, and escalating behaviour. Or should we all just have waited until he did rape someone?
And admitted to by the person accused. As a man, I am amazed at how tone deaf some of these comments are!
As the father of 3 daughters, I have gotten lots of specific input from them about places they feel comfortable going or not. And not one of them is a snowflake who is overly sensitive; a singer/ songwriter rock musician, a pilot and a CPA. They are all pretty confident and fairly tough skinned. They have all told me the male culture of harassment is ubiquitous and I believe them. They have experienced it in their careers and socially.
To minimize this kind of thing perpetuates it. And yes, I acknowledge there have been some false accusers who had less than honorable motives. But that doesn't dismiss the cultural prevalence of sexualy harassment by men in our culture at all.11 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »sunfastrose wrote: »Anyone else find the hilarity behind the use of the "pound sign" # in this?
PoundMeToo
I should have stopped reading here; this "joke" is so puerile that I don't know how I could have believed any discussion of value would be in this post.I see it as a farce and the inevitable conclusion of worshiping celebrities. Assuming both parties are responsible adults of sound mind then it is up to both to accept the responsibility that comes with power and autonomy. You can't desire power without the responsibility that comes with it. Peter Parker would still be crying in a bedroom somewhere and the story would have sucked, much like every victim narrative.
The women were at professional conferences and events associated with them. What are they meant to be held responsible for? Talking to other people in their profession while believing they should be safe from being treated as sexual objects? What hussies, believing that they should be accorded respect.
I bow to your shaming skills.
Was a crime committed? ...or does that matter? ...offense has been committed and the mob demands blood.
For what it is worth I think your joke towards the metoo movement was crass and inconsiderate of what I think is a lot of legitimate suffering and problems in our society that need to be addressed. That said if you want to make a crass joke in public that is your prerogative and I'm not going to jump down your throat about it or pretend that it was anything other than a joke....just makes me lose a bit of respect. There are better ways to handle it.
My consideration runs low when convictions are handed out without due process and based on hearsay. Human beings don't get upset at statements that are false. Emotion requires an element of truth.
How many #metoo accusations resulted in criminal convictions or even indictments? How many #metoo accusations were provably false?
I am taking this personally and emotionally invested because I have spent the better part of a my life working with and helping actual rape survivors regain some semblance of normalcy.
I have a close colleague who was falsely accused of rape. I was brought into this accusers false story, but luckily for me I reportedly took the "victim" to an abortion clinic - I had the luxury of being perceived as an "ally". While my friend's life was torn apart the individual making the false accusation never experienced any repercussions from her actions. My friend was on the brink of suicide and this still haunts him 20 years later.
Are there better ways to handle it? Possibly, but supporting the pyramid scheme of victim hierarchy is not a viable solution. It has demonstrably made society worse.
Not based on hearsay, and not false. The most recent incidents were witnessed. This was ongoing, repeated, and escalating behaviour. Or should we all just have waited until he did rape someone?
Everything we are basing our heavily biased opinions on is hearsay at this point. You allow due process to occur. Conflicting testimony to come out. Citations of specific laws. Reprimands for improper behavior - monetary, confinement, capital (rape should be a capital offense).
This is a key point that separates rule of law from mob rule.
It also requires people to stop waiting for someone else to intervene and speak up. It requires a cultural shift from passive aggression to assertiveness.
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clicketykeys wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Honestly, yes I probably am downplaying assault. Are you "upplaying" it, or is that my own sensitivities impacting how I read/interpret your post? IMO, rape is not the same thing as grabbing someone's butt. But both are labeled as assault (at least as I understand it here in the States). And that was my point - not everyone who has been accused of assault should be viewed or treated the same way. Different situations can and do have very different circumstances. Some people are scumbags, thru and thu, no doubt. But not everyone.
A grope and a rape are never treated equally. Not by anyone, not by any justice system in any country. That’s not your opinion, that’s facts. If you are downplaying what he did do with “well it’s not like he raped anyone” that is... wow. What he actually did do is violate multiple women’s personal space, made them feel uncomfortable and maybe even afraid for their safety at work, possibly restricting their opportunities for career advancement. This behaviour hurts people, it can affect self esteem, confidence, where you feel able to work and be welcome and since he then tried to label one of the women involved as a fantasist that could affect how potential employers and sponsors view her character and she could lose out financially. He did this repeatedly, with apparently no fear of ever being called out and you have to assume would have continued until he was made to stop. Is that not enough to be angry about?
I think the issue is this.
If something a crime then it should be punished within the criminal justice system. If something is not a crime then is it then the role of the public to exact whatever punishment they see fit through public pressure?
If we all agree groping is wrong then it should be a crime and if someone gropes someone it should be a criminal offense....the punishment given and enforced by the judicial system. The issue is if the person isnt convicted and therefore is not punished quite often the public basically attempts to hang them in the court of public opinion. And for that to happen all it takes is for some members of the public to just be convinced the person is guilty for whatever reason.
I get that....but it also makes me uncomfortable. I feel like we have a justice system for a reason and if someone should be punished for bad behavior it should be through that system where there is some accountability and clear punishments....not via social media and ostracism or job loss.
I don't know that I agree with the premise that everything that's morally wrong should be illegal. I think most people would agree that lying is generally wrong, even if you're not under oath. But it's something we enforce socially rather than legally. Bigamy is illegal, but telling half a dozen people "you're the most special person in my life, and I love only you" isn't. But that's not because most people think it's perfectly acceptable.
Also, I'm not sure that "if we all agree" is a good setup for anything - because when does that ever happen?Aaron_K123 wrote: »sunfastrose wrote: »Anyone else find the hilarity behind the use of the "pound sign" # in this?
PoundMeToo
I should have stopped reading here; this "joke" is so puerile that I don't know how I could have believed any discussion of value would be in this post.I see it as a farce and the inevitable conclusion of worshiping celebrities. Assuming both parties are responsible adults of sound mind then it is up to both to accept the responsibility that comes with power and autonomy. You can't desire power without the responsibility that comes with it. Peter Parker would still be crying in a bedroom somewhere and the story would have sucked, much like every victim narrative.
The women were at professional conferences and events associated with them. What are they meant to be held responsible for? Talking to other people in their profession while believing they should be safe from being treated as sexual objects? What hussies, believing that they should be accorded respect.
I bow to your shaming skills.
Was a crime committed? ...or does that matter? ...offense has been committed and the mob demands blood.
For what it is worth I think your joke towards the metoo movement was crass and inconsiderate of what I think is a lot of legitimate suffering and problems in our society that need to be addressed. That said if you want to make a crass joke in public that is your prerogative and I'm not going to jump down your throat about it or pretend that it was anything other than a joke....just makes me lose a bit of respect. There are better ways to handle it.
My consideration runs low when convictions are handed out without due process and based on hearsay. Human beings don't get upset at statements that are false. Emotion requires an element of truth.
How many #metoo accusations resulted in criminal convictions or even indictments? How many #metoo accusations were provably false?
I am taking this personally and emotionally invested because I have spent the better part of a my life working with and helping actual rape survivors regain some semblance of normalcy.
I have a close colleague who was falsely accused of rape. I was brought into this accusers false story, but luckily for me I reportedly took the "victim" to an abortion clinic - I had the luxury of being perceived as an "ally". While my friend's life was torn apart the individual making the false accusation never experienced any repercussions from her actions. My friend was on the brink of suicide and this still haunts him 20 years later.
Are there better ways to handle it? Possibly, but supporting the pyramid scheme of victim hierarchy is not a viable solution. It has demonstrably made society worse.
If your claim that people don't get upset at false statements is accurate, why was your friend upset at the false accusation? Based on your argument, he shouldn't have been, because "emotion requires an element of truth."
No one should, theoretically. However it becomes a case of what you can prove. In these cases guilt is assumed before innocence, because we have all been conditioned to believe the accuser. After all - who would lie about this?
There is a key difference in making a statement and making an accusation. I can claim the sky is green and grass is blue and evoke no response. If I accuse you of rape this immediately makes it emotional and quite personal.
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »sunfastrose wrote: »Anyone else find the hilarity behind the use of the "pound sign" # in this?
PoundMeToo
I should have stopped reading here; this "joke" is so puerile that I don't know how I could have believed any discussion of value would be in this post.I see it as a farce and the inevitable conclusion of worshiping celebrities. Assuming both parties are responsible adults of sound mind then it is up to both to accept the responsibility that comes with power and autonomy. You can't desire power without the responsibility that comes with it. Peter Parker would still be crying in a bedroom somewhere and the story would have sucked, much like every victim narrative.
The women were at professional conferences and events associated with them. What are they meant to be held responsible for? Talking to other people in their profession while believing they should be safe from being treated as sexual objects? What hussies, believing that they should be accorded respect.
I bow to your shaming skills.
Was a crime committed? ...or does that matter? ...offense has been committed and the mob demands blood.
For what it is worth I think your joke towards the metoo movement was crass and inconsiderate of what I think is a lot of legitimate suffering and problems in our society that need to be addressed. That said if you want to make a crass joke in public that is your prerogative and I'm not going to jump down your throat about it or pretend that it was anything other than a joke....just makes me lose a bit of respect. There are better ways to handle it.
My consideration runs low when convictions are handed out without due process and based on hearsay. Human beings don't get upset at statements that are false. Emotion requires an element of truth.
How many #metoo accusations resulted in criminal convictions or even indictments? How many #metoo accusations were provably false?
I am taking this personally and emotionally invested because I have spent the better part of a my life working with and helping actual rape survivors regain some semblance of normalcy.
I have a close colleague who was falsely accused of rape. I was brought into this accusers false story, but luckily for me I reportedly took the "victim" to an abortion clinic - I had the luxury of being perceived as an "ally". While my friend's life was torn apart the individual making the false accusation never experienced any repercussions from her actions. My friend was on the brink of suicide and this still haunts him 20 years later.
Are there better ways to handle it? Possibly, but supporting the pyramid scheme of victim hierarchy is not a viable solution. It has demonstrably made society worse.
Not based on hearsay, and not false. The most recent incidents were witnessed. This was ongoing, repeated, and escalating behaviour. Or should we all just have waited until he did rape someone?
Everything we are basing our heavily biased opinions on is hearsay at this point. You allow due process to occur. Conflicting testimony to come out. Citations of specific laws. Reprimands for improper behavior - monetary, confinement, capital (rape should be a capital offense).
This is a key point that separates rule of law from mob rule.
It also requires people to stop waiting for someone else to intervene and speak up. It requires a cultural shift from passive aggression to assertiveness.
Please explain how a situation that was witnessed, and that the perpetrator admitted to, is hearsay. Remember, some of us here watched this thing unfold, we're not just basing our opinions on the article linked in the OP. We read what Alan himself wrote on his Facebook page - his attempt to get out in front of it and garner sympathy for his alcoholism before the *kitten* hit the fan, his non-apology apologies, his saying one thing on his public page and then another in a private group, all of it. To say it was ugly is an understatement. And some of us had private conversations with him about it too. Still hearsay?8 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »sunfastrose wrote: »Anyone else find the hilarity behind the use of the "pound sign" # in this?
PoundMeToo
I should have stopped reading here; this "joke" is so puerile that I don't know how I could have believed any discussion of value would be in this post.I see it as a farce and the inevitable conclusion of worshiping celebrities. Assuming both parties are responsible adults of sound mind then it is up to both to accept the responsibility that comes with power and autonomy. You can't desire power without the responsibility that comes with it. Peter Parker would still be crying in a bedroom somewhere and the story would have sucked, much like every victim narrative.
The women were at professional conferences and events associated with them. What are they meant to be held responsible for? Talking to other people in their profession while believing they should be safe from being treated as sexual objects? What hussies, believing that they should be accorded respect.
I bow to your shaming skills.
Was a crime committed? ...or does that matter? ...offense has been committed and the mob demands blood.
For what it is worth I think your joke towards the metoo movement was crass and inconsiderate of what I think is a lot of legitimate suffering and problems in our society that need to be addressed. That said if you want to make a crass joke in public that is your prerogative and I'm not going to jump down your throat about it or pretend that it was anything other than a joke....just makes me lose a bit of respect. There are better ways to handle it.
My consideration runs low when convictions are handed out without due process and based on hearsay. Human beings don't get upset at statements that are false. Emotion requires an element of truth.
How many #metoo accusations resulted in criminal convictions or even indictments? How many #metoo accusations were provably false?
I am taking this personally and emotionally invested because I have spent the better part of a my life working with and helping actual rape survivors regain some semblance of normalcy.
I have a close colleague who was falsely accused of rape. I was brought into this accusers false story, but luckily for me I reportedly took the "victim" to an abortion clinic - I had the luxury of being perceived as an "ally". While my friend's life was torn apart the individual making the false accusation never experienced any repercussions from her actions. My friend was on the brink of suicide and this still haunts him 20 years later.
Are there better ways to handle it? Possibly, but supporting the pyramid scheme of victim hierarchy is not a viable solution. It has demonstrably made society worse.
Not based on hearsay, and not false. The most recent incidents were witnessed. This was ongoing, repeated, and escalating behaviour. Or should we all just have waited until he did rape someone?
Everything we are basing our heavily biased opinions on is hearsay at this point. You allow due process to occur. Conflicting testimony to come out. Citations of specific laws. Reprimands for improper behavior - monetary, confinement, capital (rape should be a capital offense).
This is a key point that separates rule of law from mob rule.
It also requires people to stop waiting for someone else to intervene and speak up. It requires a cultural shift from passive aggression to assertiveness.
Please explain how a situation that was witnessed, and that the perpetrator admitted to, is hearsay. Remember, some of us here watched this thing unfold, we're not just basing our opinions on the article linked in the OP. We read what Alan himself wrote on his Facebook page - his attempt to get out in front of it and garner sympathy for his alcoholism before the *kitten* hit the fan, his non-apology apologies, his saying one thing on his public page and then another in a private group, all of it. To say it was ugly is an understatement. And some of us had private conversations with him about it too. Still hearsay?
Evidently not by social media standards. He's already been convicted. When is sentencing?
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »sunfastrose wrote: »Anyone else find the hilarity behind the use of the "pound sign" # in this?
PoundMeToo
I should have stopped reading here; this "joke" is so puerile that I don't know how I could have believed any discussion of value would be in this post.I see it as a farce and the inevitable conclusion of worshiping celebrities. Assuming both parties are responsible adults of sound mind then it is up to both to accept the responsibility that comes with power and autonomy. You can't desire power without the responsibility that comes with it. Peter Parker would still be crying in a bedroom somewhere and the story would have sucked, much like every victim narrative.
The women were at professional conferences and events associated with them. What are they meant to be held responsible for? Talking to other people in their profession while believing they should be safe from being treated as sexual objects? What hussies, believing that they should be accorded respect.
I bow to your shaming skills.
Was a crime committed? ...or does that matter? ...offense has been committed and the mob demands blood.
For what it is worth I think your joke towards the metoo movement was crass and inconsiderate of what I think is a lot of legitimate suffering and problems in our society that need to be addressed. That said if you want to make a crass joke in public that is your prerogative and I'm not going to jump down your throat about it or pretend that it was anything other than a joke....just makes me lose a bit of respect. There are better ways to handle it.
My consideration runs low when convictions are handed out without due process and based on hearsay. Human beings don't get upset at statements that are false. Emotion requires an element of truth.
How many #metoo accusations resulted in criminal convictions or even indictments? How many #metoo accusations were provably false?
I am taking this personally and emotionally invested because I have spent the better part of a my life working with and helping actual rape survivors regain some semblance of normalcy.
I have a close colleague who was falsely accused of rape. I was brought into this accusers false story, but luckily for me I reportedly took the "victim" to an abortion clinic - I had the luxury of being perceived as an "ally". While my friend's life was torn apart the individual making the false accusation never experienced any repercussions from her actions. My friend was on the brink of suicide and this still haunts him 20 years later.
Are there better ways to handle it? Possibly, but supporting the pyramid scheme of victim hierarchy is not a viable solution. It has demonstrably made society worse.
Not based on hearsay, and not false. The most recent incidents were witnessed. This was ongoing, repeated, and escalating behaviour. Or should we all just have waited until he did rape someone?
Everything we are basing our heavily biased opinions on is hearsay at this point. You allow due process to occur. Conflicting testimony to come out. Citations of specific laws. Reprimands for improper behavior - monetary, confinement, capital (rape should be a capital offense).
This is a key point that separates rule of law from mob rule.
It also requires people to stop waiting for someone else to intervene and speak up. It requires a cultural shift from passive aggression to assertiveness.
Please explain how a situation that was witnessed, and that the perpetrator admitted to, is hearsay. Remember, some of us here watched this thing unfold, we're not just basing our opinions on the article linked in the OP. We read what Alan himself wrote on his Facebook page - his attempt to get out in front of it and garner sympathy for his alcoholism before the *kitten* hit the fan, his non-apology apologies, his saying one thing on his public page and then another in a private group, all of it. To say it was ugly is an understatement. And some of us had private conversations with him about it too. Still hearsay?
Evidently not by social media standards. He's already been convicted. When is sentencing?
Nice way to skirt around the question.6 -
Wait, so if sexual harassment doesn't rise to the level of a crime, and telling him to stop doesn't work, and the person in charge ignores my reporting it, I'm not allowed to speak about it publicly? I should just quietly quit my job or stop going to the places it happens? Because there hasn't been a trial?
He's not accused of a crime, so there won't be "due process" and he publicly admitted he did what he is accused of. Why is it unfair of me to judge the actions he has admitted to again?11 -
For those that don't understand privilege
10 -
johnslater461 wrote: »For those that don't understand privilege
I agree that a lot of what is going on is male privilege, more specifically cis male privilege. That said in my experience people want to deny that that have privilege or that something is being allowed to happen because of it because it is threatening to them. It's kind of like how people metaphorically jump back in horror and denial when they're accused of saying something racist (as opposed to actually reflecting on what they said). It's face threatening. It's also just uncomfortable, to which I say, welcome to feeling uncomfortable.7 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »I think the issue is this.
If something a crime then it should be punished within the criminal justice system. If something is not a crime then is it then the role of the public to exact whatever punishment they see fit through public pressure?
If we all agree groping is wrong then it should be a crime and if someone gropes someone it should be a criminal offense....the punishment given and enforced by the judicial system. The issue is if the person isnt convicted and therefore is not punished quite often the public basically attempts to hang them in the court of public opinion. And for that to happen all it takes is for some members of the public to just be convinced the person is guilty for whatever reason.
I get that....but it also makes me uncomfortable. I feel like we have a justice system for a reason and if someone should be punished for bad behavior it should be through that system where there is some accountability and clear punishments....not via social media and ostracism or job loss.
The public is the last line of defense against injustice just like it always has been. That is how this country was founded. "Bad behavior" needs consequences or it just keeps happening. Everyone committing these acts needs to be more afraid not less. AA is a smart man and he repeatedly risked his career and possibly his family and for what? Whatever happens to him he should have seen as a possibility when he started treating women like his playthings. He put himself into a position where the his trial would be in the public because that always had the potential of happening. He is responsible for every outcome of this situation.
It is terrible when the public gets it wrong and a life is ruined. It would be nice if there was a better way that guaranteed only the guilty were punished but that is something even the courts can't offer. It is not ideal and yes it should make everyone uncomfortable but it is what happens when things fall through the cracks.
Perhaps if there are enough figurative public lynchings a better system will emerge that is swift and painful enough to be a proper deterrent. Until then harassers/gropers/or worse beware because almost everyone has a phone with a camera these days...
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janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I keep coming back to this thread to post, then I keep deleting my post and leaving... rinse and repeat.
There seems to be a lot of emotion involved in this topic which is making it hard for people to read/listen to what others are saying. Yes, this includes me. There are a lot of layers to this topic...
Agreed. As a white male I especially feel squeamish about giving my opinion on these sorts of things. But justice really shouldn't be about gender or skin-color and so the very fact that I am made to feel hesitant about it also bothers me.
Social media has changed our world. It has made it so it is possible for someone who gets enough notice via social media to literally destroy someones life not through pressing charges through the criminal justice system but rather by appealing to the public's emotions. That should bother people shouldn't it? The whole reason we have a justice system is to prevent that sort of thing from happening by providing a means for punishment to be enacted that is transparent and predicated on evidence. If a crime was committed, charges should be filed. The fact that you can get punishment met out by instead going to the public directly through social media is not really a good thing in my opinion.
I do not know enough about this specific case to comment. Clearly if this guy groped or otherwise violated women (or anyone really) then that should be looked into and punished. The problem with doing it via public action is there is no way to fit the punishment to the crime. If you think it is okay to do that then I'd be curious to ask what crimes you think that is appropriate to do in and what crimes you do not, or is public action always a legitimate way to handle punishment?
Question: are we talking about this as a literal crime or are we talking about this as a breach of decent behavior?
Because I think a fair bit of the "me too" stuff less as literal crimes (although many of them are and should be handled appropriately), I think of them as breaches of decent behavior. And I'm perfectly fine with breaches of decent behavior being handled publicly, with people deciding for themselves how much they want to associate with and support someone who is actively engaging in it or has engaged in it and not constructively addressed what it has done to others.
I'm less interested in whether or not Aragon committed an actual violation of the law and more in whether or not he's a person who is contributing to a culture in his profession where women can't fully participate as equals.
Edit: And I'm obviously not the gatekeeper, but I think it's perfectly appropriate for everyone -- including white men -- to be involved in that conversation. I just think that anyone who hasn't personally been on the "receiving end" of this behavior or doesn't understand how it can impact one's professional and social life should be aware of that and be receptive to hearing from those who have felt the impact.
I'm talking actual crimes. I can sort-of get the idea of a public wanting to punish someone for a crime they feel they committed that the criminal justice system hasn't punished them for...it just makes me uncomfortable that punishment be doled out by a riled up public rather than a court. If it is just "Breach of decent behavior", like telling a really insensitive joke or being lewd, I'm not sure destroying someones career over that is really an appropriate response.
What you say about needing to be receptive and recognizing that my experience may not be the same as someone else is totally fair and I accept that.2 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »sunfastrose wrote: »Anyone else find the hilarity behind the use of the "pound sign" # in this?
PoundMeToo
I should have stopped reading here; this "joke" is so puerile that I don't know how I could have believed any discussion of value would be in this post.I see it as a farce and the inevitable conclusion of worshiping celebrities. Assuming both parties are responsible adults of sound mind then it is up to both to accept the responsibility that comes with power and autonomy. You can't desire power without the responsibility that comes with it. Peter Parker would still be crying in a bedroom somewhere and the story would have sucked, much like every victim narrative.
The women were at professional conferences and events associated with them. What are they meant to be held responsible for? Talking to other people in their profession while believing they should be safe from being treated as sexual objects? What hussies, believing that they should be accorded respect.
I bow to your shaming skills.
Was a crime committed? ...or does that matter? ...offense has been committed and the mob demands blood.
For what it is worth I think your joke towards the metoo movement was crass and inconsiderate of what I think is a lot of legitimate suffering and problems in our society that need to be addressed. That said if you want to make a crass joke in public that is your prerogative and I'm not going to jump down your throat about it or pretend that it was anything other than a joke....just makes me lose a bit of respect. There are better ways to handle it.
My consideration runs low when convictions are handed out without due process and based on hearsay. Human beings don't get upset at statements that are false. Emotion requires an element of truth.
How many #metoo accusations resulted in criminal convictions or even indictments? How many #metoo accusations were provably false?
I am taking this personally and emotionally invested because I have spent the better part of a my life working with and helping actual rape survivors regain some semblance of normalcy.
I have a close colleague who was falsely accused of rape. I was brought into this accusers false story, but luckily for me I reportedly took the "victim" to an abortion clinic - I had the luxury of being perceived as an "ally". While my friend's life was torn apart the individual making the false accusation never experienced any repercussions from her actions. My friend was on the brink of suicide and this still haunts him 20 years later.
Are there better ways to handle it? Possibly, but supporting the pyramid scheme of victim hierarchy is not a viable solution. It has demonstrably made society worse.
I agree with you...I also feel strongly that this form of social media justice is not okay, it is mob justice in a very literal sense. I also get and agree with that no one has some sort of right to not be offended and offending someone is not a crime. I also get you were being intentionally a provocateur and I think I get why.
I just didn't feel like saying "pound me too" was the best way to convey your concerns. I agree with your points here, but that doesn't make me feel like your crass joke was appropriate. Again though, me or anyone else finding that "offensive" does not entitle me or anyone else to some sort of position of authority over you and I am not trying to claim that. I was basically just saying "Dude, come on...you know that was distasteful and you said it anyways so own that"5 -
To sum up I think the #metoo movement has a legitamate complaint about how women are treated in society and what they often have to put up with. I also think it is important to deal with any cases where (regardless of gender) someone in a position of power uses that power to sexually assault someone who is within their authority.
That said I think it needs to be handled with filing police reports and pursing criminal charges. Appealing to the public to shame or destroy someone on the basis of a story you have told is inappropriate, even if that story happens to be true. I get that perhaps the issues in society have meant that trying to file criminal charges is not met with true justice or gets you in additional trouble and we have to deal with that as well....but that doesn't justify using a mob...two wrongs don't make a right.
(again, I am speaking in general terms not necessarily about this specific case which I don't know anything about the details)3 -
Bolding mine. For various reasons this isn't always possible. Be it statute of limitations, police not being willing to work with the person who was assaulted, rape kits not being done, children not being believed, and the various ways that society has socialized women and girls into not reporting assault.Aaron_K123 wrote: »To sum up I think the #metoo movement has a legitamate complaint about how women are treated in society and what they often have to put up with. I also think it is important to deal with any cases where (regardless of gender) someone in a position of power uses that power to sexually assault someone who is within their authority.
That said I think it needs to be handled with filing police reports and pursing criminal charges. Appealing to the public to shame or destroy someone on the basis of a story you have told is inappropriate, even if that story happens to be true. I get that perhaps the issues in society have meant that trying to file criminal charges is not met with true justice or gets you in additional trouble and we have to deal with that as well....but that doesn't justify using a mob...two wrongs don't make a right.
(again, I am speaking in general terms not necessarily about this specific case which I don't know anything about the details)
I also think there's something really wrong with comparing rape, sexual assault, molestation, etc with a victim telling someone other than law enforcement about it and the potential "mob" (which is really inaccurate on a number of levels - if he was being dox'd then I'd be more willing to agree that this was a mob like mentality) that may possibly come from that.
Never mind too that some people, for various reasons, choose not to press charges. I personally know someone who raped someone, admitted to it (ABC in the US did an hour long story on it and included audio of him admitting to it - it's one of the more disturbing things I've heard someone I know say), and didn't end up with any legal repercussions because the woman he raped didn't press charges. Sure you could say, "well the woman who was raped should have pressed charges" but there are so many reasons that I can think of why someone would choose not to and none of them include the idea that the person who raped, molested, assaulted, etc them doesn't "deserve" the legal consequences.
Honestly I get that you're trying hard to be civil and I appreciate it. I also think that there's a lot of reading and listening that you need to do surrounding systemic sexism and the effects that has people, both men and women.4 -
Bolding mine. For various reasons this isn't always possible. Be it statute of limitations, police not being willing to work with the person who was assaulted, rape kits not being done, children not being believed, and the various ways that society has socialized women and girls into not reporting assault.Aaron_K123 wrote: »To sum up I think the #metoo movement has a legitamate complaint about how women are treated in society and what they often have to put up with. I also think it is important to deal with any cases where (regardless of gender) someone in a position of power uses that power to sexually assault someone who is within their authority.
That said I think it needs to be handled with filing police reports and pursing criminal charges. Appealing to the public to shame or destroy someone on the basis of a story you have told is inappropriate, even if that story happens to be true. I get that perhaps the issues in society have meant that trying to file criminal charges is not met with true justice or gets you in additional trouble and we have to deal with that as well....but that doesn't justify using a mob...two wrongs don't make a right.
(again, I am speaking in general terms not necessarily about this specific case which I don't know anything about the details)
I also think there's something really wrong with comparing rape, sexual assault, molestation, etc with a victim telling someone other than law enforcement about it and the potential "mob" (which is really inaccurate on a number of levels - if he was being dox'd then I'd be more willing to agree that this was a mob like mentality) that may possibly come from that.
Never mind too that some people, for various reasons, choose not to press charges. I personally know someone who raped someone, admitted to it (ABC in the US did an hour long story on it and included audio of him admitting to it - it's one of the more disturbing things I've heard someone I know say), and didn't end up with any legal repercussions because the woman he raped didn't press charges. Sure you could say, "well the woman who was raped should have pressed charges" but there are so many reasons that I can think of why someone would choose not to and none of them include the idea that the person who raped, molested, assaulted, etc them doesn't "deserve" the legal consequences.
Honestly I get that you're trying hard to be civil and I appreciate it. I also think that there's a lot of reading and listening that you need to do surrounding systemic sexism and the effects that has people, both men and women.
Yeah I get that the criminal justice system is flawed. But the response to that should be trying to make changes to the criminal justice system to address the problems, not mob justice.2 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »To sum up I think the #metoo movement has a legitamate complaint about how women are treated in society and what they often have to put up with. I also think it is important to deal with any cases where (regardless of gender) someone in a position of power uses that power to sexually assault someone who is within their authority.
That said I think it needs to be handled with filing police reports and pursing criminal charges. Appealing to the public to shame or destroy someone on the basis of a story you have told is inappropriate, even if that story happens to be true. I get that perhaps the issues in society have meant that trying to file criminal charges is not met with true justice or gets you in additional trouble and we have to deal with that as well....but that doesn't justify using a mob...two wrongs don't make a right.
(again, I am speaking in general terms not necessarily about this specific case which I don't know anything about the details)
I know you said you were speaking in general terms, but just wanted to clarify that in this instance, AA made the first move in terms of making it public. The women in question had not named names publicly. They did not ask for this. AA made his sympathy-garnering post about his drinking problem, alluding to having behaved in ways he was sorry for (and I was one of the many who expressed support and well wishes for him for getting help with his drinking), the next day he followed that with a non-apology post that specifically named the women (and no, he didn't have their permission to do that). He brought fire on himself, and continued to stoke the flames until he thankful disabled his Facebook page.9 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »To sum up I think the #metoo movement has a legitamate complaint about how women are treated in society and what they often have to put up with. I also think it is important to deal with any cases where (regardless of gender) someone in a position of power uses that power to sexually assault someone who is within their authority.
That said I think it needs to be handled with filing police reports and pursing criminal charges. Appealing to the public to shame or destroy someone on the basis of a story you have told is inappropriate, even if that story happens to be true. I get that perhaps the issues in society have meant that trying to file criminal charges is not met with true justice or gets you in additional trouble and we have to deal with that as well....but that doesn't justify using a mob...two wrongs don't make a right.
(again, I am speaking in general terms not necessarily about this specific case which I don't know anything about the details)
You are entitled to your opinion. I am not sure how public shaming, a tool used by some court systems, is wrong. If anything the perpetrators should be glad that we still live in a polite enough society that it is not worse. I think the second wrong is blaming the victim for how society deals with these types of injustices.
If you grope another person this is a possible outcome. You don't want it to happen to you so don't grope another person.3 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »To sum up I think the #metoo movement has a legitamate complaint about how women are treated in society and what they often have to put up with. I also think it is important to deal with any cases where (regardless of gender) someone in a position of power uses that power to sexually assault someone who is within their authority.
That said I think it needs to be handled with filing police reports and pursing criminal charges. Appealing to the public to shame or destroy someone on the basis of a story you have told is inappropriate, even if that story happens to be true. I get that perhaps the issues in society have meant that trying to file criminal charges is not met with true justice or gets you in additional trouble and we have to deal with that as well....but that doesn't justify using a mob...two wrongs don't make a right.
(again, I am speaking in general terms not necessarily about this specific case which I don't know anything about the details)
You are entitled to your opinion. I am not sure how public shaming, a tool used by some court systems, is wrong. If anything the perpetrators should be glad that we still live in a polite enough society that it is not worse. I think the second wrong is blaming the victim for how society deals with these types of injustices.
If you grope another person this is a possible outcome. You don't want it to happen to you so don't grope another person.
The problem isn't the punishment (public shaming) it is how guilt is assessed (via social media vs a criminal court case). If someone is criminally charged with rape and found guilty of rape in court and in addition to serving a prison sentence additionally the public decides to take notice and shame them and they suffer as a result that is not the example I have an issue with.
The example I have an issue with is that person A accuses person B of a crime on social media, it garners public attention and then the public decides to punish person B by harrassing them or their employer in order to get them fired or otherwise hurt. Even if person B is actually guilty which they very well might be this is a wholly inappropriate way of handling it.1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »
Bolding mine. For various reasons this isn't always possible. Be it statute of limitations, police not being willing to work with the person who was assaulted, rape kits not being done, children not being believed, and the various ways that society has socialized women and girls into not reporting assault.Aaron_K123 wrote: »To sum up I think the #metoo movement has a legitamate complaint about how women are treated in society and what they often have to put up with. I also think it is important to deal with any cases where (regardless of gender) someone in a position of power uses that power to sexually assault someone who is within their authority.
That said I think it needs to be handled with filing police reports and pursing criminal charges. Appealing to the public to shame or destroy someone on the basis of a story you have told is inappropriate, even if that story happens to be true. I get that perhaps the issues in society have meant that trying to file criminal charges is not met with true justice or gets you in additional trouble and we have to deal with that as well....but that doesn't justify using a mob...two wrongs don't make a right.
(again, I am speaking in general terms not necessarily about this specific case which I don't know anything about the details)
I also think there's something really wrong with comparing rape, sexual assault, molestation, etc with a victim telling someone other than law enforcement about it and the potential "mob" (which is really inaccurate on a number of levels - if he was being dox'd then I'd be more willing to agree that this was a mob like mentality) that may possibly come from that.
Never mind too that some people, for various reasons, choose not to press charges. I personally know someone who raped someone, admitted to it (ABC in the US did an hour long story on it and included audio of him admitting to it - it's one of the more disturbing things I've heard someone I know say), and didn't end up with any legal repercussions because the woman he raped didn't press charges. Sure you could say, "well the woman who was raped should have pressed charges" but there are so many reasons that I can think of why someone would choose not to and none of them include the idea that the person who raped, molested, assaulted, etc them doesn't "deserve" the legal consequences.
Honestly I get that you're trying hard to be civil and I appreciate it. I also think that there's a lot of reading and listening that you need to do surrounding systemic sexism and the effects that has people, both men and women.
Yeah I get that the criminal justice system is flawed. But the response to that should be trying to make changes to the criminal justice system to address the problems, not mob justice.
Can you define what you mean by "mob justice"? Also I really hope that you you realize that people are trying to change the criminal justice system and society in general but that change isn't some sort of quick thing. What you're saying is coming out in a way that makes it appear that you really don't understand the gravity of the situation surrounding, in this case, sexual assault. It reminds me of people who say "well you shouldn't have a demonstration about racism" (any demonstration), you should just work within the system. What those people don't realize is that what's going on is systemic and the system is organized in such a way to maintain privilege. Sexism is a systemic issue. Change is slow, especially when you're working against a system that is steeped in white male privilege and sexism.
Your words are also coming across as saying "people shouldn't talk about someone assaulting or raping them" because I mean, that's essentially what you're saying here. That no one should have spoken in public about Aragon assaulting them. Why shouldn't they? Why should someone be allowed to continue to speak at a conference when three people have come out saying that they assaulted them at that conference?6
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