Gaining strength in a deficit
Options
RealWorldStrengthLLC
Posts: 552 Member
So I know I SHOULDN'T be gaining strength in a deficit, but I am...consistently. All my beginner gains should have maxed out a long time ago (I lifted for 5+ years) - and my re-gain of strength was pretty much over 4 months after I started lifting again (after 2 year hiatus)...I'm starting to break into PR territory at least once a week on a 1000 cal deficit.
How is this even happening? I seriously would like to know the science behind it, because I've
been told time and time again I should be losing muscle mass on that kind of deficit, and I agree.
How is this even happening? I seriously would like to know the science behind it, because I've
been told time and time again I should be losing muscle mass on that kind of deficit, and I agree.
1
Replies
-
I've been telling people it happened to me.
Maybe you'll be more convincing to them than I was.
14 -
dunno, but out of curiosity am going to follow to see what people say.0
-
youcantflexcardio wrote: »So I know I SHOULDN'T be gaining strength in a deficit, but I am...consistently. All my beginner gains should have maxed out a long time ago (I lifted for 5+ years) - and my re-gain of strength was pretty much over 4 months after I started lifting again (after 2 year hiatus)...I'm starting to break into PR territory at least once a week on a 1000 cal deficit.
How is this even happening? I seriously would like to know the science behind it, because I've
been told time and time again I should be losing muscle mass on that kind of deficit, and I agree.
Gaining strength isn't the same as adding muscle. You can definitely build strength in a deficit. You can't build (much!) muscle, but you can strengthen what you've already got.
ETA: Plus strength training in a deficit helps to reduce the amount of muscle lost.27 -
Your previous PRs might not have been your true 100% effort (as in my case, kept PR'ing front squats despite being close to my lowest BW). Anecdotally, less common in pressing movements
Tracking your RPE (Relative Perceived Exertion) for a set might be a better way of determining/estimating what your true 1-rep max might be (don't know if you are estimating or actually performing 1-rep max; in my case, was judging my MAX based on what the heaviest weight I could do for 5 reps). Sure, what order you perform the lift with respect to other exercises in your workout is another variable to consider (stamina/fatigue)8 -
Many factors can it be...
1. You have added volume and your training is optimal stimulas in relations to your short come back..
2. Your form had been improved.
3. Your PR territory was governed by bad programming.
4. You're not actually in a 1000 calorie deficit.
5. Your fatigue has disapated from lack of volume and you're body is responding with a peak.
6. You didn't test a true PR previously.
Most of these don't equate to strength gains just better performance.
Without knowing your programming and training, there isn't much we can guess.
12 -
Many factors can it be...
1. You have added volume and your training is optimal stimulas in relations to your short come back..
2. Your form had been improved.
3. Your PR territory was governed by bad programming.
4. You're not actually in a 1000 calorie deficit.
5. Your fatigue has disapated from lack of volume and you're body is responding with a peak.
6. You didn't test a true PR previously.
Most of these don't equate to strength gains just better performance.
Without knowing your programming and training, there isn't much we can guess.
1. My training program is the same as when I came back to lifting in April.
2. My form is solid...has been for years
3. See 1
4. I'm at a 1000 cal deficit. I'm losing 2lbs a week, like clockwork, and have been for over 2 months.
5. See 1
6. 2 months ago I struggle to deadlift 425 for 1. Yesterday I did 455 for 2 and probably had a 3rd in me. I know what weights I could lift, I write everything down - every set, every rep.
4 -
Of course you can gain strength in a deficit. Why do you think you can't?16
-
youcantflexcardio wrote: »So I know I SHOULDN'T be gaining strength in a deficit, but I am...consistently. All my beginner gains should have maxed out a long time ago (I lifted for 5+ years) - and my re-gain of strength was pretty much over 4 months after I started lifting again (after 2 year hiatus)...I'm starting to break into PR territory at least once a week on a 1000 cal deficit.
How is this even happening? I seriously would like to know the science behind it, because I've
been told time and time again I should be losing muscle mass on that kind of deficit, and I agree.
I'm no professional or anything similar but I've got a few theories...
1- It's definitely possible to build muscle in a deficit if you have enough fat stores to do it. However as you become leaner, your body becomes less and less efficient at burning fat simply because of the lack of availability throughout your body.
As this happens the glycogen stores within the muscles become more readily available for the body to burn in comparison to your dwindling fat stores.
You don't actually lose muscle tissue (outside of extreme circumstances), but you begin to lose the water stored within the muscle used for immediate energy... Less water/glycogen = less muscle mass = weaker
So if you have an abundance of fat stores, it's possible to lose fat in a deficit, while growing muscle tissue, because it's easily available for the body to utilize before really tapping glycogen stores.
Think... You CAN gain muscle in a deficit, you just CAN'T gain weight in a deficit.
I'll come back when I remember what my 2nd theory was lol8 -
youcantflexcardio wrote: »Many factors can it be...
1. You have added volume and your training is optimal stimulas in relations to your short come back..
2. Your form had been improved.
3. Your PR territory was governed by bad programming.
4. You're not actually in a 1000 calorie deficit.
5. Your fatigue has disapated from lack of volume and you're body is responding with a peak.
6. You didn't test a true PR previously.
Most of these don't equate to strength gains just better performance.
Without knowing your programming and training, there isn't much we can guess.
1. My training program is the same as when I came back to lifting in April.
2. My form is solid...has been for years
3. See 1
4. I'm at a 1000 cal deficit. I'm losing 2lbs a week, like clockwork, and have been for over 2 months.
5. See 1
6. 2 months ago I struggle to deadlift 425 for 1. Yesterday I did 455 for 2 and probably had a 3rd in me. I know what weights I could lift, I write everything down - every set, every rep.
Another thing to consider is that if you have lost about 20lbs over the last 2.5 months, while retaining most or all of your muscle... That's 20lbs less your legs have to press while deadlifting, which can now be added to the bar instead.
Regardless, not trying to dimish or downplay your efforts...
Great job Man, keep on kicking that @ss in the gym!12 -
Keto_Vampire wrote: »Your previous PRs might not have been your true 100% effort (as in my case, kept PR'ing front squats despite being close to my lowest BW). Anecdotally, less common in pressing movements
Tracking your RPE (Relative Perceived Exertion) for a set might be a better way of determining/estimating what your true 1-rep max might be (don't know if you are estimating or actually performing 1-rep max; in my case, was judging my MAX based on what the heaviest weight I could do for 5 reps). Sure, what order you perform the lift with respect to other exercises in your workout is another variable to consider (stamina/fatigue)
How would one track RPE? My tracking formula is pretty simple, it's (example)
Squat - 5@225/5@315/5@315/4@315
Basically the exercise type, Reps@weight and a / between sets.
I would be interested to calculate RPE because I pretty much set a rep range or target, and if I can do more I add weight, if I can't hit the range I decrease weight.0 -
Mr_Healthy_Habits wrote: »youcantflexcardio wrote: »So I know I SHOULDN'T be gaining strength in a deficit, but I am...consistently. All my beginner gains should have maxed out a long time ago (I lifted for 5+ years) - and my re-gain of strength was pretty much over 4 months after I started lifting again (after 2 year hiatus)...I'm starting to break into PR territory at least once a week on a 1000 cal deficit.
How is this even happening? I seriously would like to know the science behind it, because I've
been told time and time again I should be losing muscle mass on that kind of deficit, and I agree.
I'm no professional or anything similar but I've got a few theories...
1- It's definitely possible to build muscle in a deficit if you have enough fat stores to do it. However as you become leaner, your body becomes less and less efficient at burning fat simply because of the lack of availability throughout your body.
As this happens the glycogen stores within the muscles become more readily available for the body to burn in comparison to your dwindling fat stores.
You don't actually lose muscle tissue (outside of extreme circumstances), but you begin to lose the water stored within the muscle used for immediate energy... Less water/glycogen = less muscle mass = weaker
So if you have an abundance of fat stores, it's possible to lose fat in a deficit, while growing muscle tissue, because it's easily available for the body to utilize before really tapping glycogen stores.
Think... You CAN gain muscle in a deficit, you just CAN'T gain weight in a deficit.
I'll come back when I remember what my 2nd theory was lol
I am pretty overweight if I'm being honest. I'm sitting at 270ish right now (started at 301)...my athletic range (between 10% and 18% BF) IS 190-220.0 -
Yes, you can gain strength in a deficit. It's not unusual, though results vary by individual. The size of your deficit and how much you have to lose are big factors. At 270, you have plenty of stored fuel even when eating in a 1000 deficit. It's not really surprising that your lifts are still increasing.7
-
estherdragonbat wrote: »youcantflexcardio wrote: »So I know I SHOULDN'T be gaining strength in a deficit, but I am...consistently. All my beginner gains should have maxed out a long time ago (I lifted for 5+ years) - and my re-gain of strength was pretty much over 4 months after I started lifting again (after 2 year hiatus)...I'm starting to break into PR territory at least once a week on a 1000 cal deficit.
How is this even happening? I seriously would like to know the science behind it, because I've
been told time and time again I should be losing muscle mass on that kind of deficit, and I agree.
Gaining strength isn't the same as adding muscle. You can definitely build strength in a deficit. You can't build (much!) muscle, but you can strengthen what you've already got.
ETA: Plus strength training in a deficit helps to reduce the amount of muscle lost.
Yup. I could increase my reps/weight. But that didn’t mean I was building muscle. You can strengthen the existing muscle fiber and help it work more efficiently, but that can be outside of increasing the amount of muscle tissue.
Deceiving (and a bit of a bummer) isn’t it?6 -
Pretty basic premise of RPE:youcantflexcardio wrote: »Keto_Vampire wrote: »Your previous PRs might not have been your true 100% effort (as in my case, kept PR'ing front squats despite being close to my lowest BW). Anecdotally, less common in pressing movements
Tracking your RPE (Relative Perceived Exertion) for a set might be a better way of determining/estimating what your true 1-rep max might be (don't know if you are estimating or actually performing 1-rep max; in my case, was judging my MAX based on what the heaviest weight I could do for 5 reps). Sure, what order you perform the lift with respect to other exercises in your workout is another variable to consider (stamina/fatigue)
How would one track RPE? My tracking formula is pretty simple, it's (example)
Squat - 5@225/5@315/5@315/4@315
Basically the exercise type, Reps@weight and a / between sets.
I would be interested to calculate RPE because I pretty much set a rep range or target, and if I can do more I add weight, if I can't hit the range I decrease weight.
2 -
According to that chart my RPE is definitely always at 8.5 or above, usually around 9.5. Good chart though, I might start tracking that0
-
estherdragonbat wrote: »youcantflexcardio wrote: »So I know I SHOULDN'T be gaining strength in a deficit, but I am...consistently. All my beginner gains should have maxed out a long time ago (I lifted for 5+ years) - and my re-gain of strength was pretty much over 4 months after I started lifting again (after 2 year hiatus)...I'm starting to break into PR territory at least once a week on a 1000 cal deficit.
How is this even happening? I seriously would like to know the science behind it, because I've
been told time and time again I should be losing muscle mass on that kind of deficit, and I agree.
Gaining strength isn't the same as adding muscle. You can definitely build strength in a deficit. You can't build (much!) muscle, but you can strengthen what you've already got.
ETA: Plus strength training in a deficit helps to reduce the amount of muscle lost.
Yup. I could increase my reps/weight. But that didn’t mean I was building muscle. You can strengthen the existing muscle fiber and help it work more efficiently, but that can be outside of increasing the amount of muscle tissue.
Deceiving (and a bit of a bummer) isn’t it?
Furthering the deception, one can look more muscular alongside getting stronger, even without adding muscle mass, through a combination of the increased blood flow, intra-muscular water retention for healing/repair, and the beginnings of fat loss letting that all show more.
It's all good stuff, and it can make people believe they're gaining more mass than they are (or any at all) even when they aren't. I'm not saying gains are impossible in a deficit for anyone ever, but simply that there can be appearance improvements without mass gain.7 -
youcantflexcardio wrote: »So I know I SHOULDN'T be gaining strength in a deficit, but I am...consistently. All my beginner gains should have maxed out a long time ago (I lifted for 5+ years) - and my re-gain of strength was pretty much over 4 months after I started lifting again (after 2 year hiatus)...I'm starting to break into PR territory at least once a week on a 1000 cal deficit.
How is this even happening? I seriously would like to know the science behind it, because I've
been told time and time again I should be losing muscle mass on that kind of deficit, and I agree.
You can gain strength in a deficit. Strength isn't always gained by increasing muscle mass...A lot of strength gain is adaption of the CNS and more efficient use of existing muscle fibers. Actual gains in muscle mass in a deficit are possible, but not going to be particularly significant.
With a 2 year hiatus, that's going to put you back at a beginner status...I continued to get stronger and hit PRs when I was running Starting Strength for at least 6 months before I started hitting plateaus. I did not gain any significant muscle mass in that time..I looked better because my muscles popped more due to leaning out and my muscles being full of "pump"...ie water.12 -
youcantflexcardio wrote: »Many factors can it be...
1. You have added volume and your training is optimal stimulas in relations to your short come back..
2. Your form had been improved.
3. Your PR territory was governed by bad programming.
4. You're not actually in a 1000 calorie deficit.
5. Your fatigue has disapated from lack of volume and you're body is responding with a peak.
6. You didn't test a true PR previously.
Most of these don't equate to strength gains just better performance.
Without knowing your programming and training, there isn't much we can guess.
1. My training program is the same as when I came back to lifting in April.
2. My form is solid...has been for years
3. See 1
4. I'm at a 1000 cal deficit. I'm losing 2lbs a week, like clockwork, and have been for over 2 months.
5. See 1
6. 2 months ago I struggle to deadlift 425 for 1. Yesterday I did 455 for 2 and probably had a 3rd in me. I know what weights I could lift, I write everything down - every set, every rep.
1. If your programming has exactly the same stimulas,(reps, sets, intensity) you didn't for a fact gain strength. If you added weight to your lifts as you stated, your stimulas has changed. Post your an April workout and a current one from your logs if you disagree.
2. Post a vid of four months ago and a current and let's see if your form has improved? If not, maybe we can give you done tips to further your progress.
3. See 1
4. As long as you calorie intake has dropped progressively this is possible.
5. How are you measuring your fatigue within your programming? What timetable do you peak for each different lift within your programming?
6. One test alone doesn't equate a true 1RM of strength. We all have bad days, weeks, or months. Again post vid of grindy 425 dead and 455×2@RPE 9.5 and I would hazard your form has improved and adaptation has taken place.
My post as stated were examples of some of the things that can attribute to more weight lifted, of course not all. Things can get fuzzy without more data on you as a individual. Show examples of your data from workouts and vids from that time frame and we can give you the science why it could be happening as you asked for.
I look forward to seeing your data/vids and congrats on your improvements!5 -
A lot of interesting points in this thread. However, I think the most simple thing has been missed. You gained a lot of weight. You are a lot bigger person now. And since you took so much time off you are essentially starting over. You new Weight Lifting plateau is naturally going to be at higher weight because you are now a bigger person. Regardless of how unhealthy you were during your weight gain, you didn't put on 100% blubber. You now have more muscle mass than you did before even though you went thru a lazy phase. So just like any strength progression you'll keep gaining until you hit your natural plateau, to me it makes sense that that plateau is now higher because you are bigger guy.1
-
Gaining strength is not the same as gaining muscle. Strength come from muscle, yes, but it also comes from your muscles learning to work together effectively to perform a movement. The latter can happen without a change in muscle size—especially in beginners.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 392K Introduce Yourself
- 43.6K Getting Started
- 259.8K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.7K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 402 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.8K Motivation and Support
- 7.9K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.4K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 998 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.4K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions