Need Some Advice On Cadence
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BrianSharpe wrote: »MelanieCN77 wrote: »Coincidentally I turned my attention to cadence just this week as I have my first 10k coming up on Thanksgiving day and I am looking for ways to make it suck less. I can run a 5k, and I've done 10k distance on the treadmill a fair few times but outside not so much.
Try, if possible, to get a few 8 to 10K runs outside before race day as it's quite different feeling that the treadmill.
I'm nit sure I'd be tinkering with something as fundamental as cadence less than a month out from a race. If you want it to suck less (every runners goal) try to relax and enjoy the run, as your first 10K your only goal is to finish with a smile on your face. No matter what it will be a PR and then start thinking about how to improve for the future.
Thanks. My main focus is on distances the next few weeks, and I will go easy on the tinkering. I am trail running 5-6 miles most weekends but there's more walking in trail running than road running haha... so yeah just looking to overcome the mental fatigue you get when you can't get comfortable. I've never been a technical runner, figured it wouldn't be a bad thing to take a closer look at my habits and form.0 -
Oh and I did four miles comfortably this morning
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MeanderingMammal wrote: »The research on the 180spm ideal is quite limited in applicability. It was based on a very narrow set of subjects and in a track context.
IMHO limited is overstating it. It's all but worthless. It's not any kind of study, but anecdotal evidence from a single coach on their athletes.
I have an average cadence of 158. I can run 5 minute miles or 9 minute miles and I'll have an average cadence of 158 steps0 -
Ok. Here is a run i did today...
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3126848517
I walked the first third of a mile to warm up, the ran the rest at a slow pace. At first i tried to control my cadence (set up a cadence/pace data screen on my Garmin) at a certain pace. It felt awkward so i just ran at a comfortable cadence and pace that felt natural, and observed as i went. Seems like i feel comfortable and natural at about 150 to 160 at a 14:00 to 15:00 pace.
My heart rate and breathing felt fine too, and i felt like i could have gone for quite a while like that.
My MHR according to the 220-age formula should be 159 (220 - 61), but i have got my HR up to 165 several times using a chest strap monitor, so i have my MHR set to 165.
Feel free to analyse my data and add some pointers.
Keep in mind that i'm just an OldAssDude trying to improve my fitness.
And less than a year ago, i could only run for 30 seconds.
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OldAssDude wrote: »Ok. Here is a run i did today...
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3126848517
I walked the first third of a mile to warm up, the ran the rest at a slow pace. At first i tried to control my cadence (set up a cadence/pace data screen on my Garmin) at a certain pace. It felt awkward so i just ran at a comfortable cadence and pace that felt natural, and observed as i went. Seems like i feel comfortable and natural at about 150 to 160 at a 14:00 to 15:00 pace.
My heart rate and breathing felt fine too, and i felt like i could have gone for quite a while like that.
My MHR according to the 220-age formula should be 159 (220 - 61), but i have got my HR up to 165 several times using a chest strap monitor, so i have my MHR set to 165.
Feel free to analyse my data and add some pointers.
Keep in mind that i'm just an OldAssDude trying to improve my fitness.
And less than a year ago, i could only run for 30 seconds.
My analysis is that you're over thinking it!5 -
OldAssDude wrote: »Ok. Here is a run i did today...
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3126848517
I walked the first third of a mile to warm up, the ran the rest at a slow pace. At first i tried to control my cadence (set up a cadence/pace data screen on my Garmin) at a certain pace. It felt awkward so i just ran at a comfortable cadence and pace that felt natural, and observed as i went. Seems like i feel comfortable and natural at about 150 to 160 at a 14:00 to 15:00 pace.
My heart rate and breathing felt fine too, and i felt like i could have gone for quite a while like that.
My MHR according to the 220-age formula should be 159 (220 - 61), but i have got my HR up to 165 several times using a chest strap monitor, so i have my MHR set to 165.
Feel free to analyse my data and add some pointers.
Keep in mind that i'm just an OldAssDude trying to improve my fitness.
And less than a year ago, i could only run for 30 seconds.
My advice?
Do you have actual health reasons for needing a certain heart rate? Any cardiac history?
If not, why not just try running, without over analyzing the data?
I'll share the best advice that I got from one of my running and drinking buddies: Running becomes a lot more fun when you don't give a rat's *kitten* about the details or pace.
If you want to focus on improving your running, just run.
What is the benefit to your training or weight loss from overanalyzing details that make little to no difference in amateur-level performance?3 -
TavistockToad wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »Ok. Here is a run i did today...
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3126848517
I walked the first third of a mile to warm up, the ran the rest at a slow pace. At first i tried to control my cadence (set up a cadence/pace data screen on my Garmin) at a certain pace. It felt awkward so i just ran at a comfortable cadence and pace that felt natural, and observed as i went. Seems like i feel comfortable and natural at about 150 to 160 at a 14:00 to 15:00 pace.
My heart rate and breathing felt fine too, and i felt like i could have gone for quite a while like that.
My MHR according to the 220-age formula should be 159 (220 - 61), but i have got my HR up to 165 several times using a chest strap monitor, so i have my MHR set to 165.
Feel free to analyse my data and add some pointers.
Keep in mind that i'm just an OldAssDude trying to improve my fitness.
And less than a year ago, i could only run for 30 seconds.
My analysis is that you're over thinking it!
Thank you. That was helpful. 0 -
collectingblues wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »Ok. Here is a run i did today...
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3126848517
I walked the first third of a mile to warm up, the ran the rest at a slow pace. At first i tried to control my cadence (set up a cadence/pace data screen on my Garmin) at a certain pace. It felt awkward so i just ran at a comfortable cadence and pace that felt natural, and observed as i went. Seems like i feel comfortable and natural at about 150 to 160 at a 14:00 to 15:00 pace.
My heart rate and breathing felt fine too, and i felt like i could have gone for quite a while like that.
My MHR according to the 220-age formula should be 159 (220 - 61), but i have got my HR up to 165 several times using a chest strap monitor, so i have my MHR set to 165.
Feel free to analyse my data and add some pointers.
Keep in mind that i'm just an OldAssDude trying to improve my fitness.
And less than a year ago, i could only run for 30 seconds.
My advice?
Do you have actual health reasons for needing a certain heart rate? Any cardiac history?
If not, why not just try running, without over analyzing the data?
I'll share the best advice that I got from one of my running and drinking buddies: Running becomes a lot more fun when you don't give a rat's *kitten* about the details or pace.
If you want to focus on improving your running, just run.
What is the benefit to your training or weight loss from overanalyzing details that make little to no difference in amateur-level performance?
hey, i'm just looking to be able to do longer slower runs at a pace/cadence/HR that i can sustain without fizzling out.
There is no need to point out that my performance is amateur-level. I think that's already apparent, and i'm making an effort to improve that.
didn't you have to work at it, and learn stuff?
Or were you born an athlete?1 -
OldAssDude wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »Ok. Here is a run i did today...
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3126848517
I walked the first third of a mile to warm up, the ran the rest at a slow pace. At first i tried to control my cadence (set up a cadence/pace data screen on my Garmin) at a certain pace. It felt awkward so i just ran at a comfortable cadence and pace that felt natural, and observed as i went. Seems like i feel comfortable and natural at about 150 to 160 at a 14:00 to 15:00 pace.
My heart rate and breathing felt fine too, and i felt like i could have gone for quite a while like that.
My MHR according to the 220-age formula should be 159 (220 - 61), but i have got my HR up to 165 several times using a chest strap monitor, so i have my MHR set to 165.
Feel free to analyse my data and add some pointers.
Keep in mind that i'm just an OldAssDude trying to improve my fitness.
And less than a year ago, i could only run for 30 seconds.
My analysis is that you're over thinking it!
Thank you. That was helpful.
You say in your post below that you want to do a longer slower run, so do just that...
The best way to get better at running is to run more
:drinker: 2 -
OldAssDude wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »Ok. Here is a run i did today...
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3126848517
I walked the first third of a mile to warm up, the ran the rest at a slow pace. At first i tried to control my cadence (set up a cadence/pace data screen on my Garmin) at a certain pace. It felt awkward so i just ran at a comfortable cadence and pace that felt natural, and observed as i went. Seems like i feel comfortable and natural at about 150 to 160 at a 14:00 to 15:00 pace.
My heart rate and breathing felt fine too, and i felt like i could have gone for quite a while like that.
My MHR according to the 220-age formula should be 159 (220 - 61), but i have got my HR up to 165 several times using a chest strap monitor, so i have my MHR set to 165.
Feel free to analyse my data and add some pointers.
Keep in mind that i'm just an OldAssDude trying to improve my fitness.
And less than a year ago, i could only run for 30 seconds.
My advice?
Do you have actual health reasons for needing a certain heart rate? Any cardiac history?
If not, why not just try running, without over analyzing the data?
I'll share the best advice that I got from one of my running and drinking buddies: Running becomes a lot more fun when you don't give a rat's *kitten* about the details or pace.
If you want to focus on improving your running, just run.
What is the benefit to your training or weight loss from overanalyzing details that make little to no difference in amateur-level performance?
hey, i'm just looking to be able to do longer slower runs at a pace/cadence/HR that i can sustain without fizzling out.
There is no need to point out that my performance is amateur-level. I think that's already apparent, and i'm making an effort to improve that.
didn't you have to work at it, and learn stuff?
Or were you born an athlete?
We're *all* amateur level here. Unless we have an elite in our midst who hasn't fessed up, it's an accurate assessment for 95-99 percent of the people on the forum.
There's no need to get defensive simply because someone points out that you're not an elite.
What I'm saying is that unless you are elite, you stand very little to gain, performancewise, by obsessing over the details to the level that you are. And that's said by the woman who just realized that she can predict a race pace by averaging all of the total run paces in the six weeks leading up to a race. And calculated it back for almost every race I've done.
Want to be a better runner? Run more. Worry less.1 -
OldAssDude wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »Ok. Here is a run i did today...
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3126848517
I walked the first third of a mile to warm up, the ran the rest at a slow pace. At first i tried to control my cadence (set up a cadence/pace data screen on my Garmin) at a certain pace. It felt awkward so i just ran at a comfortable cadence and pace that felt natural, and observed as i went. Seems like i feel comfortable and natural at about 150 to 160 at a 14:00 to 15:00 pace.
My heart rate and breathing felt fine too, and i felt like i could have gone for quite a while like that.
My MHR according to the 220-age formula should be 159 (220 - 61), but i have got my HR up to 165 several times using a chest strap monitor, so i have my MHR set to 165.
Feel free to analyse my data and add some pointers.
Keep in mind that i'm just an OldAssDude trying to improve my fitness.
And less than a year ago, i could only run for 30 seconds.
My advice?
Do you have actual health reasons for needing a certain heart rate? Any cardiac history?
If not, why not just try running, without over analyzing the data?
I'll share the best advice that I got from one of my running and drinking buddies: Running becomes a lot more fun when you don't give a rat's *kitten* about the details or pace.
If you want to focus on improving your running, just run.
What is the benefit to your training or weight loss from overanalyzing details that make little to no difference in amateur-level performance?
hey, i'm just looking to be able to do longer slower runs at a pace/cadence/HR that i can sustain without fizzling out.
There is no need to point out that my performance is amateur-level. I think that's already apparent, and i'm making an effort to improve that.
didn't you have to work at it, and learn stuff?
Or were you born an athlete?
Sorry, I didn't get this from your previous posts. If this is truly your goal, then I would encourage you to have a look at a book called "80/20" running by Matt Fitzgerald. It explains why the best way to become a better endurance runner is to do 80% of your running at a slow, comfortable pace and push yourself into or near the anaerobic zone only 20% of the time. Running at a slower pace than you are able can be challenging, especially if you are used to pushing your limits. It takes patience and also a bit of pride swallowing. But it is the best way to build your aerobic base and allow you to run at a pace/cadence/HR that you can sustain "without fizzling out." It involves finding your lactate threshold and monitoring your HR as you run. Pace and cadence will naturally fall in line. i credit the book with getting me to the starting line of the Boston Marathon, so I believe pretty strongly in its principles.4 -
The thing that keeps me going faster is running with folks who are of similar abilities (or a little faster). This keeps me motivated or I will fall behind. IMO, nothing beats a group of friends to make you faster.
definitely this... I never push myself as fast as I do with a fast group.1 -
FWIW - My plan to kick Matt's *kitten* next year includes significant core and hip work. Working resistance training into your routine is important. As I am learning, running can only take me so far. Cross training (smart cross training) is important.
This. After running for years, strength training made a tremendously huge difference in my pace. Stronger arms make a difference in what cadence you comfortably maintain. Strong hamstrings (usually not worked all that much when running) make a major difference in the uphill speed in particular. Stronger leg muscles (strength training makes a bigger impact much faster than running does) = much less fatigue over distance and you can maintain cadence & stride better.2 -
If you do want to aim for a faster cadence, you can try a music playlist that's set to a certain range. Spotify has quite a few across a handful of genres (you can search playlists for "bpm"). (note: genre choices will of course be limited by bpm range)1
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https://www.outsideonline.com/2359986/dont-think-too-hard-about-your-running-form
"The message seems pretty straightforward here: you know instinctively how to run and how to breathe, so stop trying to tinker with the details. "
3 -
lporter229 wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »Ok. Here is a run i did today...
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3126848517
I walked the first third of a mile to warm up, the ran the rest at a slow pace. At first i tried to control my cadence (set up a cadence/pace data screen on my Garmin) at a certain pace. It felt awkward so i just ran at a comfortable cadence and pace that felt natural, and observed as i went. Seems like i feel comfortable and natural at about 150 to 160 at a 14:00 to 15:00 pace.
My heart rate and breathing felt fine too, and i felt like i could have gone for quite a while like that.
My MHR according to the 220-age formula should be 159 (220 - 61), but i have got my HR up to 165 several times using a chest strap monitor, so i have my MHR set to 165.
Feel free to analyse my data and add some pointers.
Keep in mind that i'm just an OldAssDude trying to improve my fitness.
And less than a year ago, i could only run for 30 seconds.
My advice?
Do you have actual health reasons for needing a certain heart rate? Any cardiac history?
If not, why not just try running, without over analyzing the data?
I'll share the best advice that I got from one of my running and drinking buddies: Running becomes a lot more fun when you don't give a rat's *kitten* about the details or pace.
If you want to focus on improving your running, just run.
What is the benefit to your training or weight loss from overanalyzing details that make little to no difference in amateur-level performance?
hey, i'm just looking to be able to do longer slower runs at a pace/cadence/HR that i can sustain without fizzling out.
There is no need to point out that my performance is amateur-level. I think that's already apparent, and i'm making an effort to improve that.
didn't you have to work at it, and learn stuff?
Or were you born an athlete?
Sorry, I didn't get this from your previous posts. If this is truly your goal, then I would encourage you to have a look at a book called "80/20" running by Matt Fitzgerald. It explains why the best way to become a better endurance runner is to do 80% of your running at a slow, comfortable pace and push yourself into or near the anaerobic zone only 20% of the time. Running at a slower pace than you are able can be challenging, especially if you are used to pushing your limits. It takes patience and also a bit of pride swallowing. But it is the best way to build your aerobic base and allow you to run at a pace/cadence/HR that you can sustain "without fizzling out." It involves finding your lactate threshold and monitoring your HR as you run. Pace and cadence will naturally fall in line. i credit the book with getting me to the starting line of the Boston Marathon, so I believe pretty strongly in its principles.
Thank you. This is helpful. I did read up some on the 80/20 thing, and i do monitor my HR while running. I also don't mind swallowing my pride either as places that i run, i don't see many people my age even walking fast lol. I think i'm just fixating on form too much.0 -
https://www.outsideonline.com/2359986/dont-think-too-hard-about-your-running-form
"The message seems pretty straightforward here: you know instinctively how to run and how to breathe, so stop trying to tinker with the details. "
YOU FOUND IT!!!
This sounds like exactly what i am doing.
I see all this crap on the internet...
run at 180 spm or your doing it wrong
keep your arms at exactly a 90 degree angle
keep your back perfectly straight
tilt your pelvis slightly forward
keep your shoulders back
hold your head so it feels like someone is pulling the back of your head up with a string
breath so only your belly moves in and out
breath in through your nose for 4 steps and out through your mouth for 4 steps
run as though your sneaking up behind someone
and most of all it should feel natural
hahaha
how the h*ll can anything feel natural trying to do all that crap at the same time...
My heart rate gets over 100 just thinking about it.
The run that i posted today started off trying to worry about all that crap. At about the 14:00 minute mark i thought to myself... i'm just gonna run at a comfortable pace that feels natural and that i think i can sustain for this 3.5 mile run. I checked my heart rate/pace/cadence every once in a while just as a reference. It felt natural and i felt like i could sustain it for quite a while. It was more enjoyable because i wasn't worried about all that crap.
I do try to maintain a good posture and impact under my center mass, and i think that's all i really need to worry about.
THANK YOU SOLDIER!!!
5 -
Gave this thread a cursory scan and noted the "worry about cadence" vs "don't worry about cadence" discussion. While I'm not advocating for either approach, I can tell you a very easy way to play with cadence without stressing over it is to try a run or two with a metronome app. Just download a free app to your phone and set it to any cadence rate you like. Then pick the tones you want to listen to, such as a "Tick, Tock", "Ding, Dong" sound, etc and start the app once you get warmed up. My coach suggested I try that during a few runs last year and it was sorta fun. I just naturally fell into the 180bpm cadence and "zoned out" to it during the run. I carry the phone in my running vest.
Also, as a guy who will be 61 next month, the other suggestion I'd offer is to pick up Joe Friel's book "Fast After 50", which details the physical changes and challenges faced by athletes as we move through midlife and into "The Golden Years" lol. It describes how training adaptations can prolong or increase performance capacity as we go through the 50's, 60's, 70's and beyond. It specifically talks about the need for both high intensity work, as well as the need for more "recovery paced" days between hard efforts. It is some fun reading if you're interested in endurance sports.3 -
We need to run sometime @OldAssDude. You're not too far north of me. If you ever get to the Harrisburg area look me up.
I may be up your way next year to run Steamtown (if I don't run Chicago).3 -
Gave this thread a cursory scan and noted the "worry about cadence" vs "don't worry about cadence" discussion. While I'm not advocating for either approach, I can tell you a very easy way to play with cadence without stressing over it is to try a run or two with a metronome app. Just download a free app to your phone and set it to any cadence rate you like. Then pick the tones you want to listen to, such as a "Tick, Tock", "Ding, Dong" sound, etc and start the app once you get warmed up. My coach suggested I try that during a few runs last year and it was sorta fun. I just naturally fell into the 180bpm cadence and "zoned out" to it during the run. I carry the phone in my running vest.
I did try a metronome app a while back, but it still felt more natural at 150 to 160. I tried 170 and 180, but i fizzled out pretty quickly, and it just felt awkward running at a slow pace at such a high cadence. Now if i do intervals and run at a faster pace on the run interval, 180 feels fine at a faster pace.
Also, as a guy who will be 61 next month, the other suggestion I'd offer is to pick up Joe Friel's book "Fast After 50", which details the physical changes and challenges faced by athletes as we move through midlife and into "The Golden Years" lol. It describes how training adaptations can prolong or increase performance capacity as we go through the 50's, 60's, 70's and beyond. It specifically talks about the need for both high intensity work, as well as the need for more "recovery paced" days between hard efforts. It is some fun reading if you're interested in endurance sports.
I do intervals a lot. I do 30 second all out effort (try to hit my MHR) and 2 minute power walking for the active rest interval. I do this over a course of almost 4 miles and probably get 15 or 16 intervals in. Other times i do 1 minute fast paced run (about 90% effort), and 3 minute power walk active recovery intervals over the same distance. I think my main problem is that i don't do enough long slow runs and it's causing my base aerobic level to suffer. I think better pace will come in time all by itself if i focus more on distance, and quit wasting so much energy over thinking form.
Thanks for the feedback.0
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