Concept 2 Rowing Workouts of the Day

littlebear0121

I love how Concept 2 publishes workouts of the day to keep things interesting. I have a simple question about them. I often do workouts that are supposed to be at 22, 24, 26 etc. strokes per minute. We've had our erg for a little under a year, and I use it about every other day, so I'm pretty much a beginner. However, workouts at these stroke rates seem pretty slow and not challenging. I'm wondering if this is because I have short legs (I'm 5'7" but have a long torso and short legs) and am not doing as much work as a long-legged person at the same stroke rate. Or maybe they're designed to be slow? Maybe I'm doing something wrong? Any comments on how you approach the workouts of the day and stroke rate?

GoodLardy

You should probably post this on the C2 site for better info, but I’ve always been in the understanding that you make things more challenging by pushing harder with your legs, even in a low stroke rate. Not “ faster”. I’m new to rowing as well, so i could be wrong.

aokoye

like GoodLardy said, stroke rate isn't necessarily an arbiter of how fast you're going (how low your split time is). So for example, during part of my warmup I was at a rate of 22 and my split was 2:02. During my cool down I had the same stroke rate but my split was in the 2:30s.

@AnnPT77 likely has a much more nuanced way of posting this.

Also, I'm 5' 8.5" so not tall by rowing standards.

AnnPT77

Stroke ratings in the mid-20s tend to be bread & butter workouts, sustainable for a longer period, but not really so terribly far under race pace splits. That's where the majority of my workouts were, even when I was actually training.

For example, back a few years ago when I was more seriously (but still recreationally) training and occasionally competing, my target race pace was about 2:03/500 (I'm waaaayyy older and female-er than our friend @aokoye up there - I was in my late 40s at the time (now 63) and I'm 5'5", started rowing in my mid-40s). My coach gave me a personal target pace at 22spm of 2:21.2, 24 at 2:18.4, 26 at 2:15.3, based on heart rate response on a rowing machine step test. Those 12-18 seconds make a huge difference - I could go at those paces a really long time, but at the 2:03 I'd be pretty much done, as expected, in a race situation, after the 8 minutes and change. That extra pace increment costs a lot, physically.

I suspect that if the mid-20s spm seem unchallenging, you probably have some technique issues. It should be possible to hit a very challenging intensity at 14-16spm (not that that's a thing one would usually do, usually that's more like cool down spm, or for special drills). Making machine rowing challenging is all about getting your weight and strength into the flywheel. Stroke rating (and damper setting**) is kind of a side issue.

As a concept, we work at lower spm the majority of the time because that lets us have the time to notice and correct technique issues. Racing is then taking that same technique and strength, and applying it at race spm (30s, typically). (Obviously, one has to do some higher spm work as part of the training, just to practice it and to build the endurance/VO2max/etc. to take those strong strokes to higher spm. Those are much shorter workouts!)

Compare your time for one of the Concept 2 rankable times or distances, and see where you stand for your age/sex/weight group. That should give you a clue how you're doing technique-wise. I could give you some things you could look for in your technique, as clues, too, but I need to finish my coffee and run off to an appointment very soon, so no time to get into it now.

** I hope your setting is around 3-4, not 10. The US national team women do most of their practice in the 4-ish range; you don't need to be higher . . . probably should be lower. It's not "resistance", it's simulated boat-feel.

mburgess458

Rowing can be just as challenging at a low stroke rate. The harder you pull the harder it is. The app I use (ErgData) can also show things like "peak force" which is how much force you are pulling at. If you pull at a peak force of 100 lbs and a spm of 22 it won't be that challenging and you won't be going that fast. If you pull at a peak force of 200 lbs and a spm of 22 it will be super challenging and you'll be flying.

That's one of the things I love about rowing. You can row at a higher spm and lower force and it's more cardio and less like lifting... you can row at a higher force and lower spm and it's more like lifting weights.

AnnPT77

This post will be about a few things you can look at in your rowing that may give clues about technique issues. I apologize in advance if any/all make you think "of course I know that, why do you think I wouldn't?". Since all I know about you is the minimal facts in your OP, I'm basing this on things I often see at the gym, and you may be well beyond that.

1. Do you ever use the power curve display? That's the one with "Kg Lb" on the left-hand side by the Y axis. It shows you how power is applied through your stroke. Don't pick on your first stroke, but let yourself drop into a decent normal mid-paced rhythm, then look at the shape of the curve. You want it to be pretty smooth, like a geologically old hill, not pointy/peaky like a recently-geologically-born new mountain range. It should move upward smoothly at the start of the stroke, come to a smooth rounded top area or even close to a flat plateau, then drop off smoothly at the right-hand side at the end of the stroke.

You don't want sub-hills anywhere on it (like moguls on a ski slope). Those would be points where your power transfer from legs to back to arms on the drive isn't smooth. (It lags a little behind you as you take the stroke, so it may not be immediately obvious exactly where the issue is.) Different coaches want different things. Some want the up-slope and the down slope to be similar length and angle, or so I'm told. My coaches wanted a steep-as-possible but smooth slope on the left (quickly but smoothly applied leg power at the start of the drive), so that the hill appeared to be shifted to the left; then a tall central area that lasted as long as possible (rounded or flattish, but smooth - maintaining the power with back and arms), then a little more gradual slope on the right (a little inevitable deceleration).

2. As you're taking strokes, notice your arms and legs:

2A. Is there any point at which both your elbows and your knees have a bend? One or the other should be bent at various points on both the drive and recovery, but they shouldn't both be bent at the same time. If they are, there's an issue with sequencing the body parts.
2B. Are you ever finding you raise your hands so they miss your knees, or where hands and knees are sort of close to each other? That, too, suggests an issue with body part sequencing.

3. When you start each stroke, you should ideally feel pressure of your full foot against the foot-stretcher. It's OK if your heels come up at the end of the recovery to get vertical shins at the catch, but the heels should go down first/quickly as you start the drive, then you should feel pressure on your sole. (You're trying to suspend your weight a bit on the handle, and use muscle-generated pressure on the foot stretcher to further accelerate the handle.)

As soon as you get your feet down and feel that sole pressure, you should continue to feel some pressure there all the way through the finish. Furthermore, you should be able to feel a slight unweighting of your rear on the seat - not open air between glutes and seat, since this is a horizontal force, but kind of as if the pressure of your glutes on the seat just becomes a little less, so they go from compressed against the seat on the recovery, to decompressed on the drive. Ideally, you'll feel that slight unweighting on the seat all the way through the legs-back-arms transfers of the drive, all the say to the point where you turn the motion around into the recovery. You're trying to accelerate the handle/flywheel through the whole drive (may not be strictly possible; arms are weaker than legs and back, but you can make that up a little by consciously accelerating the arms).

This is just a few quick things to look at and consider. If you're noticing issues of any of these, and want to talk about it, post what you're experiencing and maybe we can suggest some drills or improvements to try. If you have questions, please ask.

littlebear0121

Thank you, @mburgess458, @AnnPT77, @GoodLaurdy, and @aokoye! I imagine my technique is terrible. I went through the Concept 2 beginner videos, printed off their instruction form for technique, and watched some videos from DarkHorseRowing on youtube. I received and followed advice given on this forum when we bought the erg, and I will revisit the advice people gave on how to learn proper technique.

@AnnPT77, how could I find a coach? We moved to this area about 1.5 years ago, and I don't know anyone around here who rows. We live 30 minutes from the Mississippi River, so there might be a rowing team there? I don't have time in this season of life to drive anywhere to exercise, although I would enjoy rowing on a team competitively someday. I would probably not be a good addition to a team, however because of my height. I almost always row at 4 damper setting. I have entered my times on the Concept 2 rankings (I'm 39 and in the 30-39 category, in the heavyweight category for now.) I am ranked about the 25th percentile for the 500 meters in my category and 45th percentile for the 5000 meters.

Thank you all for your input. I didn't know most of the information you shared with me. I do use ergData on my phone while rowing but haven't paid any attention yet to the peak force yet.

ruthbardell

I find length per stroke a really useful field in the erg data app. We are almost the same height (and age, though that is irrelevant), and I too am mostly body with very short legs. If I am concentrating on technique properly my stroke length is somewhere between 135 and 139 cm. When I start to get distracted by people around me I can easily lose 10 cm from that.

If you are on Facebook there is an indoor rowing group called concept 2 indoor rowing hub by fitness matters. It is open for anyone to join, and has people like Pete Marston (from The Pete Plan) and Graham Benton, who wins pretty much every indoor rowing competition and has lots of records, in the group. You can post a short video of yourself rowing to the group and you will always get useful technical feedback. Not quite the same as having a coach with you, but a close second.

AnnPT77

You can find some clubs via USRowing at http://www.usrowing.org/find-club/ . That will include only clubs affiliated with them.

You can also try the brute force method: Do a Google search on "rowing club near (name of nearest good-sized city)" or "indoor rowing near (name of nearest good-sized city)".

If you're in a community Facebook or other social club, you could also ask if anyone has a kid who's a multi-year rower at a decent school who'd give you some coaching for a few bucks.

The idea about rowing groups or sites where you can get video review: That's good, too.

Another option, if you're sufficiently into it, would be a vacation at a rowing camp. Craftsbury in Vermont is excellent (https://www.craftsbury.com/sculling/sculling-camps/sculling-home/) and they accept beginners. There are others, but they're kind of the grand-daddy. Currently owned by the Concept 2 folks, too.

Best wishes!

aokoye

littlebear0121 wrote: »

Thank you, @mburgess458, @AnnPT77, @GoodLaurdy, and @aokoye! I imagine my technique is terrible. I went through the Concept 2 beginner videos, printed off their instruction form for technique, and watched some videos from DarkHorseRowing on youtube. I received and followed advice given on this forum when we bought the erg, and I will revisit the advice people gave on how to learn proper technique.

@AnnPT77, how could I find a coach? We moved to this area about 1.5 years ago, and I don't know anyone around here who rows. We live 30 minutes from the Mississippi River, so there might be a rowing team there? I don't have time in this season of life to drive anywhere to exercise, although I would enjoy rowing on a team competitively someday. I would probably not be a good addition to a team, however because of my height. I almost always row at 4 damper setting. I have entered my times on the Concept 2 rankings (I'm 39 and in the 30-39 category, in the heavyweight category for now.) I am ranked about the 25th percentile for the 500 meters in my category and 45th percentile for the 5000 meters.

Thank you all for your input. I didn't know most of the information you shared with me. I do use ergData on my phone while rowing but haven't paid any attention yet to the peak force yet.

In addition to what Ann said, there might be a rowing club near you that does erg workouts specifically for people who haven't learned how to row on water yet. There are at least two clubs in two very different parts of my state that do this (I live in Oregon) which makes me think that it can't be especially out of the ordinary. This of course is more of a, "when you have time to get somewhere to workout" plan.

Don't sell yourself short with regards to your height. One of the fastest men on our team is 5' 10"ish maybe (he's taller than me but I don't think he's 6 feet tall), not especially built like a tank, and in his 50s. When technique and strength are equal then yeah - hight plays a bigger role, but you're not going to be an Olympic rower and even then, there are Olympic level rowers who are short (short in the context of rowing that is). Also you've never had any coaching - don't tell yourself you wouldn't be useful before you've even tried.

TL;DR - try and find a rowing club when your schedule permits and don't think that you're too short for rowing.
Also yay for more rowing threads!

sgt1372

littlebear0121 wrote: »

I love how Concept 2 publishes workouts of the day to keep things interesting. I have a simple question about them. I often do workouts that are supposed to be at 22, 24, 26 etc. strokes per minute. We've had our erg for a little under a year, and I use it about every other day, so I'm pretty much a beginner. However, workouts at these stroke rates seem pretty slow and not challenging. I'm wondering if this is because I have short legs (I'm 5'7" but have a long torso and short legs) and am not doing as much work as a long-legged person at the same stroke rate. Or maybe they're designed to be slow? Maybe I'm doing something wrong? Any comments on how you approach the workouts of the day and stroke rate?

Your height is irrelevant.

If you do not find rowing at lower SPMs "challenging", it's probably because you are not rowing "harder" and w/more effort than you do at higher stroke rates, where you can use momentum to do some of the work.

In theory, in order to exert the same effort as measured in cals or watts, at a lower SPM, you will have to row "harder" than you would at a higher SPM. The way to test this is to compare the total cals burned doing 500 or 1k meters at your preferred stoke rate and level of effort and at the lower stroke rate at the same level of effort. The latter should result in a lower cals burned, lower distance traveled and longer time to do it. The only way to make the results equal is to row harder to burn more cals at the lower stroke rate to equal the effort exerted at the higher stroke rate.

So, the way to make rowing at the lower SPM more "challenging" is simply to row harder.

AnnPT77

littlebear0121 wrote: »

Thank you, @mburgess458, @AnnPT77, @GoodLaurdy, and @aokoye! I imagine my technique is terrible. I went through the Concept 2 beginner videos, printed off their instruction form for technique, and watched some videos from DarkHorseRowing on youtube. I received and followed advice given on this forum when we bought the erg, and I will revisit the advice people gave on how to learn proper technique.

@AnnPT77, how could I find a coach? We moved to this area about 1.5 years ago, and I don't know anyone around here who rows. We live 30 minutes from the Mississippi River, so there might be a rowing team there? I don't have time in this season of life to drive anywhere to exercise, although I would enjoy rowing on a team competitively someday. I would probably not be a good addition to a team, however because of my height. I almost always row at 4 damper setting. I have entered my times on the Concept 2 rankings (I'm 39 and in the 30-39 category, in the heavyweight category for now.) I am ranked about the 25th percentile for the 500 meters in my category and 45th percentile for the 5000 meters.

Thank you all for your input. I didn't know most of the information you shared with me. I do use ergData on my phone while rowing but haven't paid any attention yet to the peak force yet.

Apologies: I gave you some thoughts on the "finding a club" part, but didn't reply to the bolded part above.

Damper 4 should be OK - you're not imagining that increasing the damper "adds resistance" and makes the workout tougher - that's good.

When I talked about the force curve and its peaks, just to be clear, I wasn't talking about ergdata (though I know others were). I was talking about one of the displays you can get on your Concept 2 rowing machine monitor. Hit "change display" until you see the one with "kg lb" on the side. That's the one I'm talking about, that shows power application through the stroke. Many people don't use it, but it's my favorite monitor display.

There's no reason to think your height greatly limits your value to a team. I'm shorter than you (5'5"), and masters teams have liked me fine, even when I was obese. (Masters = old people, not necessarily excellent people, in rowing ). A few of the very good collegiate rowers I've known are your height, even. (I am close to a Div I NCAA women's team that's been somewhat successful, conference and nationally, over the last decade, and know some of them pretty well, been coached by their coaches, etc.) Working your way to a faster rowing machine pace will make you more attractive to rowing teams. At the club/masters level, just being a reliable team player who shows up consistently, on time, and is willing to work hard & do whatever's needed, will make you a valued player, typically.

Given where you are now with your erg pace, it sounds like you're doing pretty well on endurance, but could have some room for improvement on power. That can be a combination of raw strength (which is slow to improve, and focused strength training can help), and technique (which can improve pretty quickly, if you find the things you most need to work on). Looking at the 3 things enumerated in my earlier post could give you some hints about where to focus. It sounds like you're doing pretty well already, so I'm thinking #1 or #3 might be more likely sources of insight, but that's just a guess.

Have you taken a video of yourself rowing, and compared it with the Concept 2 beginner videos? Do you have a mirror where you can see yourself as you're rowing (from the side is usually most helpful)? Those things can help pinpoint stuff to work on, even if you don't have a coach.

One thing you could try, just for fun now and then, would be to work at a lower stroke rating (say 16-18) and see how much power you can get into each stroke (how low you can get the split at that rating). Experiment with techical changes one at a time, by which I mean focus on a particular aspect of the stroke you think you might be able to improve. Work on that particular thing for a few minutes, trying to drop the split lower.

Some examples of things you could work on (one at a time!) would be:
* working to get your heels down first at the catch, if you aren't already;
* keeping the forward swing of the body in place as long as possible (not letting yourself open at the hips until the legs are very nearly flat - just enough overlap of the motions for a smooth, not jerky, transition);
* pushing smoothly but intensely hard with your legs as soon as your heels are down, almost like a slo-mo jump;
* checking that as you do the body swing (both forward during the recovery and backward during the drive) that it's a swing from the hip joint with a straight back, not a curving of the spine;
* making sure you're sitting erect all through the stroke (straight spine, looking at the horizon, chest open - one of my coaches said to pretend you have a lovely necklace you want to show off, another said to pretend there's a headlight on your chest that is beaming out toward the horizon);
* making sure your arms stay straight during the drive until just the last tiny bit of the body swing (just enough overlap to keep the monitor's force curve smooth and your glutes slightly unweighted on the seat through the transition);
* accelerating the arms (almost a snap, but not quite that violent) when it's time to bend them, making sure to let the elbows move naturally/relaxedly out to your sides (not get stuck in front of your body);
* finding that "unweighted from the seat" feeling, or "suspended between handle and foot-stretcher" feeling, through the full drive;
* finding the right angle of body swing (you don't want to feel your seat scoot forward under you when you swing back on the drive, that's a sign that your layback is at too big an angle);
* making sure that anytime any part of your body is moving backward on the drive, it's powering the handle back with it (most common area where this can fail is during the leg drive: you want to make sure that the handle is moving just as fast as the seat is moving during the legs phase);
* keeping your shoulders down during the drive so you engage the lats, feeling your shoulder blades be firmed together through the drive and really pulling together between them at the arms part of the drive;
* sending your arms away quickly at the start of the recovery (about the same speed they came toward your body at the end of the drive).

After the arms, the recovery sequence is less important on the rowing machine than in a boat, but the right idea is still to keep the "arms away, body swing, release legs" sequence on the recovery, so the whole stroke cycle becomes a smooth sort of coiling/compression of the body during the recovery, and a gradual, sequential release of that coiled, spring-like body "leg press, body swing, arm pull" on the drive.

Have fun!

AnnPT77

Afterthought: A kind-of-fun thing to do, that can potentially help your rowing intensity over time, is to do a workout trying to maximize meters per stroke (requires only the C2 monitor).

For me, it happens at relatively lower spm (19-22, typically), with relatively good technique, especially leg power and suspension. For me, the split ends up around 2:18-2:22ish (old, female, smallish - remember). That's about 10m per stroke, for me.

One thing I like about it is that it rewards both smooth aggressiveness on the drive, and patience on the recovery, both of which are extremely useful in the boat.

aokoye

Oh I should also note, that 2:10 during my warm up was during one of three power tens I did that evening. That said I am younger and male-r than @AnnPT77 - though in testosterone and gender identity alone (I'll let you connect the fairly obvious dots there).

My glutes, quads, and hamstrings are also weaker than the benchmark for cis men my age because of the two knee surgeries over the past few years (among other things). Of those sets of muscles, I think my right hamstring is the only one that is where we want it to be. That's according to an isokinetic test done at PT a few weeks ago.

littlebear0121

@AnnPT77 and others, I'm going to print out all of your suggestions and post them next to our rowing machine to look at while I'm rowing. When I row, especially if I row hard, I get raw (chafed) skin on my butt. I tried to look up on the forums what can be done about that, but have had no success yet. I do put lubricant on (the kind runners put between their thighs when running a marathon.) This happens even if I row only 500m, and I'm guessing it might have something to do with bad form since I haven't heard of it happening to others. Any suggestions? Sorry this is probably TMI

AnnPT77

littlebear0121 wrote: »

@AnnPT77 and others, I'm going to print out all of your suggestions and post them next to our rowing machine to look at while I'm rowing. When I row, especially if I row hard, I get raw (chafed) skin on my butt. I tried to look up on the forums what can be done about that, but have had no success yet. I do put lubricant on (the kind runners put between their thighs when running a marathon.) This happens even if I row only 500m, and I'm guessing it might have something to do with bad form since I haven't heard of it happening to others. Any suggestions? Sorry this is probably TMI

I have the same problem, especially having gotten thinner. I don't remember it happening when I was obese, rowing the same amount. It happens kind of just at or above my sacrum, on my butt cheeks, kind of inner side (how's that for TMI? ).

For me, a seat pad + liberal application of Body Glide (probably about the same thing you're using) mostly avoids the problem. If I have the problem, something like A+D ointment (an enriched baby/diaper vaseline-ish stuff) when not rowing seems to help healing . . . but be careful, that will transfer to clothes, potentially.

Do you have a seat pad? I've used a folded towel in a pinch (not quite as good, still helpful). I usually use a chunk cut from an old closed-cell-foam sleeping pad (for camping use), but you can buy nice gel ones (from a bunch of places online).

It does seem to be unusual, and I don't think it's form: I think it's just body configuration + that particular seat configuration. I know rowers who have problems with certain manufacturer's boat seats (more often numbness than chafing; boat seats are different), while others have no problems at all with them. I'm one of the few people I know who has a problem with the C2 seats . . . not just on the machine: We have the same seats in my club's rowing barge, and they bother me there, same way; but none of the boat seats do, on a diversity of boats.

Wish I had a better answer for you (and me ).

mburgess458

Sorry for asking for TMI, but is the raw skin on your butt from where it meets the rower seat?

TMI Warning:
I ask because I have to be careful how I sit or I get raw/chafed skin on my butt but it isn't from where my butt hits the seat, it is a bit higher. I'm trying to think of a way to describe it without being too graphic... it is from my butt-cheeks rubbing against each other. My solution is making sure that my exercise underwear isn't pulling my butt-cheeks too tightly together. I guess if everything is packed in too tightly then the movement from rowing causes skin on skin chafing.

AnnPT77

mburgess458 wrote: »

Sorry for asking for TMI, but is the raw skin on your butt from where it meets the rower seat?

TMI Warning:
I ask because I have to be careful how I sit or I get raw/chafed skin on my butt but it isn't from where my butt hits the seat, it is a bit higher. I'm trying to think of a way to describe it without being too graphic... it is from my butt-cheeks rubbing against each other. My solution is making sure that my exercise underwear isn't pulling my butt-cheeks too tightly together. I guess if everything is packed in too tightly then the movement from rowing causes skin on skin chafing.

I think mine is above where the seat hits, but I'm kind of too distracted while rowing to be sure (don't usually notice stuff that hurts until I'm done ). So, equally not sure whether skin/skin, or skin/seat, or skin/clothing). Clothing adjustments, unfortunately, did nothing to help, though.

Thanks for the tip - helpful for sure for people more self-aware than I seem to be.

MikePfirrman

Here are a couple of really good foam seats for the Concept2. I have the second one but if the first had been around when I bought the second, I might have gone with that.

https://www.sportsmith.net/ItemForm.aspx?Item=P17060&=&utm_medium=2019_1&utm_campaign=product_feed&gclid=Cj0KCQiA7IDiBRCLARIsABIPohiVHyUFbhccPH9T6gmKnxuXSXn7iGIbP-rwtPd2Jh_6yUjmISeXNYsaAittEALw_wcB

I love this one, I have two.

https://www.hornetwatersports.com/collections/seatpads/products/memory-foam-cushion-made-for-concept-2-rowing-machine?gclid=Cj0KCQiA7IDiBRCLARIsABIPohhNT-RPChPGDZ3ZBP3HcClLuqjIPZ_MoaxQ_l9Zaw94r6aKsK8gHXQaAv8vEALw_wcB

Don't be tempted to get a thick pad. That will make the issue worse, not better. It also could be a bit of form too. When I'm leaning too far back, I tend to get rubbed raw a bit.

The "lean back" part of the stroke is momentum from you keeping your body (for lack of better phrases) tucked forward as you drive with the legs, then finish with the upper body swing quickly followed by the arms with a hip hinge movement to move the body back.

I find that when I get sloppy (I row around 60K plus meters a week on the C2 on average), my butt will get sorer. You should be sitting up straight with good posture throughout the stroke. Remember, your power comes from your legs, not your upper body.

Also, I love ButtR by Chamois. It was made for bike chafing but it's fantastic for rowing too. I also find that wearing tech undies (non cotton) helps tremendously. Also, if I wear lined shorts, that creates friction that creates chafing.