Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Do you read with a sense of skepticism?
NorthCascades
Posts: 10,968 Member
in Debate Club
I'm exhausted from New Year's Eve and from a lot of exercise today. I've been reading to stay awake until a respectable hour to go to bed. There was an article about how dairy is dangerous and addictive, should come with warning labels, gives you leaky gut syndrome, and makes your car break down.
This quote early on got me in a ranting mood:
While milk and dairy products, such as cheese and yoghurt, are good sources of protein and calcium and can form part of a healthy, balanced diet, as Dr Michael Greger, from NutritionFacts.org, put it to me: "There's no animal on the planet that drinks milk after weaning - and then to drink milk of another species even doesn't make any sense."
Problem is, I have a cat, years old and fully weaned, who loves goat and cow milk. I mean, it's also a problem that leaky gut syndrome isn't actually a thing.
There's a thread going on in the health section, somebody is slammed at having read that deli meat will give you cancer.
When you read things, especially health and diet related, do you have a healthy sense of skepticism?
This quote early on got me in a ranting mood:
While milk and dairy products, such as cheese and yoghurt, are good sources of protein and calcium and can form part of a healthy, balanced diet, as Dr Michael Greger, from NutritionFacts.org, put it to me: "There's no animal on the planet that drinks milk after weaning - and then to drink milk of another species even doesn't make any sense."
Problem is, I have a cat, years old and fully weaned, who loves goat and cow milk. I mean, it's also a problem that leaky gut syndrome isn't actually a thing.
There's a thread going on in the health section, somebody is slammed at having read that deli meat will give you cancer.
When you read things, especially health and diet related, do you have a healthy sense of skepticism?
17
Replies
-
It depends on the source and the information collected by that source. A peer-reviewed meta-analysis published in a respected journal and available on the NIH website, or an official recommendation by the World Health Organization based on many studies' worth of research (ie. red and deli meat being probable carcinogens) is more likely to be accurate than a website run by a doctor who cherry-picks studies and has his own personal reasons for wanting people to follow a certain diet.19
-
Yup I read with a huge amount of sceptisism always. The internet is a wonderful place, but it is also full of woo and make believe6
-
Yep BS detector is fully activated. If it says always, all, lose more than 2 pounds a week, gain more than a couple pounds of muscle a month, etc the information is thrown out of my brain.
As @launenq1991 mentions WHO, USDA, etc information is in my line of trust.2 -
Just like common sense, the ability to read with healthy skepticism varies *greatly* from person to person.
Add in personal biases and desperation and, for a lot of people, whatever of the previous they may have had flies out the window.7 -
NorthCascades wrote: »I'm exhausted from New Year's Eve and from a lot of exercise today. I've been reading to stay awake until a respectable hour to go to bed. There was an article about how dairy is dangerous and addictive, should come with warning labels, gives you leaky gut syndrome, and makes your car break down.
This quote early on got me in a ranting mood:
While milk and dairy products, such as cheese and yoghurt, are good sources of protein and calcium and can form part of a healthy, balanced diet, as Dr Michael Greger, from NutritionFacts.org, put it to me: "There's no animal on the planet that drinks milk after weaning - and then to drink milk of another species even doesn't make any sense."
Problem is, I have a cat, years old and fully weaned, who loves goat and cow milk. I mean, it's also a problem that leaky gut syndrome isn't actually a thing.
There's a thread going on in the health section, somebody is slammed at having read that deli meat will give you cancer.
When you read things, especially health and diet related, do you have a healthy sense of skepticism?
But it's somehow okay to take that same "another species" milk and consume the cheese and yoghurt made from them? That distinction always makes me chuckle. According to Michael Greger (who is a quack, btw) shouldn't we all be consuming human breast milk cheese then?7 -
I do EVERYTHING with a healthy dose of skepticism.4
-
I would say I read critically. I am aware that there are a lot of articles that are there to manipulate rather than just inform.
I look at if statements are opinion or fact. I look at the source and if more than one reputable source is in agreement.
I think about if it jives with my own experience.
2 -
In cultures where cheese and yoghurts have been eaten for millennia the population maintains the required enzymes to digest both casein and lactose. This comes down to stored cheese being good for protein when other proteins are less available. Elderly persons, I speak as one, can loose the ability of maintaining the required enzymes.
Also, I have a controlled autoimmunity. In persons where digestive microbes are very depleted and/or unbalanced by the over use of antibiotics and other medications, even the contraceptive pill, these can in some persons, an increasing number in the wide community, with reduce effectiveness of our digestion which can loosen the tight joints within the digestive tract allowing foods which are not fully digested cross the natural barrier at a size larger than is desirable. When this happens our immune system is alerted and goes into eliminate mode. Unfortunately sometimes these rogue particles are mistaken for some of our own cells. The immune system is not always able to identify the invader from one or more of the persons cells so sets about eliminating the particular cell which is most like the invader. In my situation it is the thyroid gland. I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis. My system is incapable of differentiating my thyroid tissue from that of the molecule which mimics it. In a person with MS, the mistaken cells are the myelin sheaths which surround and protect the persons nerves. A person who has reduced thyroid function can also have reduced Human growth Hormone, because it is the third thyroid hormone. Often osteoarthritis is diagnosed some 10 to 15 years prior to low thyroid being recognised.
I know this is way outside many peoples sphere of understanding. Many Doctors also resist this concept so you are not on your own.
Back in my childhood vaccinations contained mercury as the preservative, teeth were filled with mercury, water pipes were made of lead, then they copper which is also unhelpful because it can build up in tissue and like the other metals become toxic. Omnivores are mostly protected by zinc being present in most meats, I do not remember the amount of zinc to balance 1 of the same in copper, it may be 10 to 1, or there about. (Please read about copper toxicity) Vegetarians and Vegans can suffer from a build up of copper from the veg and fruit the consume. Now plastics are used for cold water pipes over here in new builds. I can't remember the number of rounds of penecilin and related antibiotics i have used in my life time. My health was well and truly compromised from an early age by well intentioned medics and my environment.
We are fortunate in Britian because it is becoming more understook that digestive microbes need to be in balance for health and some doctors suggest using them after a round of antibiotics. I have provided them for members of my family, saying read up on this, I know they will help you but make sure for yourself. Poor digestive biome can influence one's moods for the worst too, contributing to depression.
My Hashimoto's, reduced my thyroid function which reduced my digestive activity causing more varieties of microbes to be lost, it contributed to othr health conditions including a tendency to bronchitis, reactions to foods and preservatives, it contributed to oestrogen dominance and so much more. It was an eminent Professor in Immunology who told me all this several years ago, suggesting my problems went way, way back. I was refused the opportunity to return to him by the local endo bod at the local hospital, who considered he knew better. I had to resort to going outside our health system to get my health back, trying to follow the guidance i received from the professor.
I was really unwell at the time, i could not be in large public spaces in comfort, even my back garden, when the neighbours washing was on the line was out of bounds, though some plants did similarly, i was using air filters at home too. Traveling by public transport was impossible too. In the end I opted to visit a local, 20 minutes down the road, BANT registered nutritionist, who also works in Harley Street, London's private health care area. (Regrettably they are not available over seas) Following very expensive blood tests we set about restoring my liver and endocrine functions. I introduced lemon juice, and differnt supliments, avoided added sugar, eventually i discovered digestuve microbes which did not add to my Histamine Intolerance and took them continioulsy in various forms for 18 months or more, now i take them every couple or three months. I also take alternative glandular products for my thyroid and adrenals. Mostly with her help, a few inspired reading sessions of my own. following as near i could the advice of the Professor, discovering digestive enzymes to digest salicylate and polly-phenols from foods, I have my life and health back. For now i still need the pills but at least, I am living. I can look after my 13 month old, gt grandson which i could not have done 13/14 years ago.
So yes, for some of us, leaky gut is a thing. I hope i have given a reasonable explanation of how it can happen. Please read up for yourselves. My strongest wish is that no one else goes through part what i have.
Edited to add.
a sugar level which is too high for the individual will contribute to thrush and cystitis.
poor endocrine function can under pin diabetes, the thyroid gland is the hub of the endocrine system and if other parts of the system are underperforming its the thyroid gland which will show up problems, different to those of autoimmunity.
Also, in the book/website of Stop The Thyroid Madness, says to the effect, that when the investigations to discover the prevalence of thyroid problems in society, left over blood samples in a path lab were used for this purpose. From STTM's point of view and I agree, these blood samples being devoid of patient status, were they under thyroid treatment, had family on treatment and small details like this only gives the prevalence in that hospital for that week, not necessarily society in general with external influences. All samples were treated as if they had the same value where as, someone under treatment would skew the data. The chances of being able to conduct similar research again are, I would imagine nil. Regrettably this is why people, usually women will keep being told, you are fine, "you are within the normal range". How far from the mark that statement is means all the difference to many patients who never get to feel well again. Some will not be able to turn t4 into the active form t3, some will lack vitamins and minerals which could help and those who are genetically un able are not tried on t3 supplements because t4 always works, except it can't!
Our bodies are so very complicate.21 -
I very rarely read 'entertainment' articles based on hyping minor research findings related to veganism/meat etc! Things have normally been taken out of context to make them sound shocking or novel. Everything should be read with a pinch of salt (and that's coming from me as a science communicator!!). I always read the original research paper - or at least an article describing the research paper in a non-biased way that has references. If it's not referenced (the claims are not backed up to reputable scientific research papers) then I don't read it.2
-
I assume whatever I read is incorrect and follow where objective evidence leads.
I review the core material the article was based upon, seek out alternative views and data, review confirmation bias, and speak to others about the subject at hand before taking a stance.
We are only beginning to realize the toxic combination of "hit/like" marketing and a population lacking the ability to think objectively.
My skepticism increases proportionally to the amount of letters behind one's name or regulatory body. If appeal to authority is required, then it is definitive bull squeeze.7 -
Unless it comes from a reputable source such as NHI, WHO, CDC, or Mayo Clinic or something like that, I am automatically suspicious of what I am reading. The research in gut permeability seems to be in its infancy. From what I can gather it does seem to be a thing that effects some people. But, it's not something scientists understand fully yet. I do not believe it is as pervasive and as common as some of these bloggers would have us beleive. Take hashimotos for example. I was just recently diagnosed myself (high antibodies). And I went on a quest to find out more about it, and what kind of things I could do to support my health naturally, and maybe slow down the inevitable progression of the disease. I was immediatly bombarded with articles telling me about how gluten is secretly killing me and causing ALL of my ailments. It took a lot of digging to finally produce a peer reviewed study about the link between celiac and hashimoto's on the NIH website. (If need be in the name of citation I can go find it again. Let me know) They frequently run together, but one isn't caused by the other. And while yes, going gluten free does seem to help SOME people with Hashimoto's disease, it does not help everyone and anyone. If I stopped at the first few search results, they would have me believing I need to throw out all the gluten (and in some cases dairy) in my house immediatly or suffer the consequences. Disclosure: I did go GF for a while to see if it helped with some digestive issues I was having. It didnt. Nor did it magically cure anything else for me.
TLDR: I read from several resources to form an educated opinion. I have a higher level of skepticism for bloggers or so called doctors then I do from more reputable medical research sources such as NIH and others of the like.4 -
Always skepticism. Realize how difficult evaluating studies is for most people. First, evaluation of scientific trial methodology and statistical significance is a skill that not everyone has. Also, many scientific full articles are behind a paywall and inaccessible to those without a university library pass or scientific company subscription; unless we want to spend around $35 per article, we rely on secondary reporting about a study to go beyond the abstract.2
-
Healthy skepticism, grain of salt, etc....
No dairy debate from me, I eat yogurt, cheese, drink chocolate milk almost every day. Can't give it up, I am one of those at my age something is going to knock me out at some point, might as well enjoy my dairy in the mean time.3 -
What's humorous about statements such as these is that there is no logical justification.
No X does Y, so why does Z do Y?
Applying this same theoretical logic with any other variables usually exposes woo with ease.
There is no animal on the planet that practices medicine.
There is no animal that travels using mechanical means.
There is no animal on the planet that deliberately sacrifices it's present for it's future.
By this logic, stop using the internet as no other animal runs an ISP.16 -
I find that it is best to go to the source and read re actual studies, then I might go and read some critiques of both sides and follow their logic and studies. Eventually conclusions can be drawn.2
-
snickerscharlie wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »I'm exhausted from New Year's Eve and from a lot of exercise today. I've been reading to stay awake until a respectable hour to go to bed. There was an article about how dairy is dangerous and addictive, should come with warning labels, gives you leaky gut syndrome, and makes your car break down.
This quote early on got me in a ranting mood:
While milk and dairy products, such as cheese and yoghurt, are good sources of protein and calcium and can form part of a healthy, balanced diet, as Dr Michael Greger, from NutritionFacts.org, put it to me: "There's no animal on the planet that drinks milk after weaning - and then to drink milk of another species even doesn't make any sense."
Problem is, I have a cat, years old and fully weaned, who loves goat and cow milk. I mean, it's also a problem that leaky gut syndrome isn't actually a thing.
There's a thread going on in the health section, somebody is slammed at having read that deli meat will give you cancer.
When you read things, especially health and diet related, do you have a healthy sense of skepticism?
But it's somehow okay to take that same "another species" milk and consume the cheese and yoghurt made from them? That distinction always makes me chuckle. According to Michael Greger (who is a quack, btw) shouldn't we all be consuming human breast milk cheese then?
Or eat their flesh. If the body is good to eat why wouldn't the milk be?
I mean there theoretically could be some reason that cow milk was actually poisonous to humans, but we wouldn't be drinking a lot of it every day if that was the case.2 -
No not at all. I like to become one with what I read and then fall asleep and let my dreams and nightmares do the filtering.6
-
I always read with skepticism, that is my natural way of thinking and always has been. My friends hate me because I am always pointing out when their stories, emails, and eventually memes are urban legends or fake news. I also have a practical nature and have been told I am a great mediator, This means when I read stuff about questionable scientific studies I am able to pick out the useful information. I am also able to temper the excess and fearmongering with common sense.
The one time I went to a palm reader (vacation so why not?) she knew right away I was a skeptic so all her predictions had a caveat attached.5 -
What's humorous about statements such as these is that there is no logical justification.
No X does Y, so why does Z do Y?
Applying this same theoretical logic with any other variables usually exposes woo with ease.
There is no animal on the planet that practices medicine.
There is no animal that travels using mechanical means.
There is no animal on the planet that deliberately sacrifices it's present for it's future.
By this logic, stop using the internet as no other animal runs an ISP.
Not to mention, if X was capable of doing Y, they damn well would. If an animal could extract milk from another species, they most definitely would...it would just be another food source.
My cat loves cow milk...6 -
I always read with skepticism and err on the side of rejecting something that might be true rather than accept something that is false. Even if I think it likely is true I am reluctant to repeat it unless I look into it further to feel fully confident. There is actually very little in the general media I trust as being accurate. That said it would be exhausting to check into everything and I don't do that...it becomes a risk assessment at that point.
Source says X is dangerous...would avoiding X be a hassle?...if so look into it further or ignore it. If avoiding X isnt a hassle and it being dangerous is at least plausible and source is reasonable may as well avoid X....but dont go around talking about how dangerous X is because of something I read but didn't look into.
I think it is utter folly to think stories you read online are fully vetted well researched and 100% accurate. I'm pretty sure 99% of the time they aren't.9 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »It depends on the source and the information collected by that source. A peer-reviewed meta-analysis published in a respected journal and available on the NIH website, or an official recommendation by the World Health Organization based on many studies' worth of research (ie. red and deli meat being probable carcinogens) is more likely to be accurate than a website run by a doctor who cherry-picks studies and has his own personal reasons for wanting people to follow a certain diet.
I read this detox from cheese article in the health section of the BBC site, after reading a good article there and clicking links at the end...
Unfortunately this is an important lesson. You can trust the news to find out what's going on where you live, who won the election, stuff like that. But that doesn't mean you can trust them about nutrition.3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »I'm exhausted from New Year's Eve and from a lot of exercise today. I've been reading to stay awake until a respectable hour to go to bed. There was an article about how dairy is dangerous and addictive, should come with warning labels, gives you leaky gut syndrome, and makes your car break down.
This quote early on got me in a ranting mood:
While milk and dairy products, such as cheese and yoghurt, are good sources of protein and calcium and can form part of a healthy, balanced diet, as Dr Michael Greger, from NutritionFacts.org, put it to me: "There's no animal on the planet that drinks milk after weaning - and then to drink milk of another species even doesn't make any sense."
Problem is, I have a cat, years old and fully weaned, who loves goat and cow milk. I mean, it's also a problem that leaky gut syndrome isn't actually a thing.
There's a thread going on in the health section, somebody is slammed at having read that deli meat will give you cancer.
When you read things, especially health and diet related, do you have a healthy sense of skepticism?
But it's somehow okay to take that same "another species" milk and consume the cheese and yoghurt made from them? That distinction always makes me chuckle. According to Michael Greger (who is a quack, btw) shouldn't we all be consuming human breast milk cheese then?
Or eat their flesh. If the body is good to eat why wouldn't the milk be?
I mean there theoretically could be some reason that cow milk was actually poisonous to humans, but we wouldn't be drinking a lot of it every day if that was the case.
If there's any interest, it might actually be the other way around. There seems to be a readon why it isn't toxic to a good many people.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2012/12/27/168144785/an-evolutionary-whodunit-how-did-humans-develop-lactose-tolerance
But it really is toxic to some people. If you have some kind of general health ussue that never seems to get better, it might be worth cutting dairy for a bit to see how that makes you feel.
That goes for a lot of foods. Allergies and tolerance issues don't always these immediate and obvious consequences.2 -
Yes. All the skepticism and critical attention, always.
Your post made me think of this. I’ve been laughing for days about this. 😂
Edited to say I’m sorry if I posted the pic wrong. I’m not new to MFP but I’m new to these parts.11 -
I don't know how people who just take this stuff at face value manage to get on in life. I would think they'd live with constant fear and anxiety about what they eat, how they exercise, what insidious thing might be slowly destroying their body unless they supplement with X. I mean, there is so much contridictrary drivel out there that if a person were to try to avoid all the "bad" stuff and do all the "good" stuff (which might actually be the same "stuff" depending on the article) they could end up huddled in bed unable to find a suitable eating window to consume the few foods that haven't been demonized at some point in a blog post by a random internet "doctor".
4 -
NorthCascades wrote: »I read this detox from cheese article in the health section of the BBC site, after reading a good article there and clicking links at the end...
Unfortunately this is an important lesson. You can trust the news to find out what's going on where you live, who won the election, stuff like that. But that doesn't mean you can trust them about nutrition.
Yes, that's why it's always good to look at the sources the news is using. If it's a large body of research compiled by an official organization it's probably accurate. If it's just one researcher or doctor or someone who doesn't even have any credentials in the field, it's more likely to be inaccurate. If it goes against everything you have heard about nutrition in the past, it's more likely to be inaccurate. There's a ridiculous amount of pseudoscience out there, especially on websites like Reddit, and people with zero idea what they're talking about making claims about "detox" and that X or Y food is "not meant to be eaten by humans." The truth is that doctors, nutritionists, and researchers by and large have been saying the same things about what constitutes a healthy diet for many decades, and it's about what you would expect -- based on fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, nuts, moderate amounts of animal products, and limiting red meat, high-mercury fishes, processed sugar, refined grains, processed oils, alcohol, etc. It may not be what people want to hear or what most people end up eating, but the majority of nutritional recommendations have remained consistent for a long time.I don't know how people who just take this stuff at face value manage to get on in life. I would think they'd live with constant fear and anxiety about what they eat, how they exercise, what insidious thing might be slowly destroying their body unless they supplement with X. I mean, there is so much contridictrary drivel out there that if a person were to try to avoid all the "bad" stuff and do all the "good" stuff (which might actually be the same "stuff" depending on the article) they could end up huddled in bed unable to find a suitable eating window to consume the few foods that haven't been demonized at some point in a blog post by a random internet "doctor".
This does happen to some people and it's called orthorexia. I'm a hypochondriac so I have fallen into that trap in the past but now I have realized that, as I said above, dietary recommendations have remained more or less the same for decades, and the people saying you should eat only vegan for health reasons or eat only meat or something are extreme outliers (you would think if that was what humans were "meant" to eat, we would have figured it out a long time ago!)5 -
"There's no animal on the planet that drinks milk after weaning - and then to drink milk of another species even doesn't make any sense."
If their mothers would allow them to nurse indefinitely or they could figure out how to extract milk from other animals, they would certainly be drinking milk at every opportunity. This quote is confusing capability with preference.3 -
absolutely. except when my kids write things...they note the source even if its a result of their own work. ...and they are so thorough.
top notch scientists. 1 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »The truth is that doctors, nutritionists, and researchers by and large have been saying the same things about what constitutes a healthy diet for many decades, and it's about what you would expect -- based on fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, nuts, moderate amounts of animal products, and limiting red meat, high-mercury fishes, processed sugar, refined grains, processed oils, alcohol, etc. It may not be what people want to hear or what most people end up eating, but the majority of nutritional recommendations have remained consistent for a long time.
Yes, but one issue is that the way the media tries to make everything new and interesting (or just clickbaity) means that many people are confused about this and think everything is constantly changing.
I can think of some changes, but the main advice has been pretty consistent.1 -
I don't know how people who just take this stuff at face value manage to get on in life. I would think they'd live with constant fear and anxiety about what they eat, how they exercise, what insidious thing might be slowly destroying their body unless they supplement with X. I mean, there is so much contridictrary drivel out there that if a person were to try to avoid all the "bad" stuff and do all the "good" stuff (which might actually be the same "stuff" depending on the article) they could end up huddled in bed unable to find a suitable eating window to consume the few foods that haven't been demonized at some point in a blog post by a random internet "doctor".
A very good friend of mine is someone who believes most of what she reads, as long as the source has the appearance of authority. She is a very intelligent woman who has had a successful career as a nurse (20 years in geriatrics and the last 10 in mental health). She is also very naive. She has a good heart and assumes everyone else does too. I don't think she lives in fear. It is more like she tries to live "right" so she follows whatever is the flavor of the month because it is a good thing, not because she needs to avoid a bad thing.2 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »"There's no animal on the planet that drinks milk after weaning - and then to drink milk of another species even doesn't make any sense."
If their mothers would allow them to nurse indefinitely or they could figure out how to extract milk from other animals, they would certainly be drinking milk at every opportunity. This quote is confusing capability with preference.
I've see a cow with a nursing calf, sulking on it's mother. All 3 lined up and happy as could be. I've also seen cats drinking milk pouring out of a cream separator, and knowing the only time the barn cats would let me go near them is when I wash washing up the separator.3
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 424 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions