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Official nutritional advice

ceiswyn
ceiswyn Posts: 2,256 Member
edited December 19 in Debate Club
...is it just me, or is the official nutritional guidance we're given often kind of terrible?

Today there's been a BBC news story about the benefits of fibre. So far so good, but I'm staring at the NHS nutritional advice in horror.

Everyone tells you to eat fruits and vegetables to get fibre. Has anyone looked at the amount of fibre that's actually in most fruits and vegetables? I eat over ten portions (that's 800g) of fruits and vegetables a day, and struggle with my fibre goal. Yesterday's 11 portions of fruit and veg got me a whole... 14g of fibre. That's less than half of the new goal.

Similarly, 'a small handful of nuts can have up to 3g of fibre'. Well, yes, a 'small handful' of nuts can indeed provide you with 3g of fibre; if you're defining 'small handful' as 28g, and I imagine everyone here knows exactly how small a handful that really is. It's also 160 calories. So anyone eating enough nuts and seeds to have a noticeable effect on their fibre intake will also be consuming a LOT of extra calories.

Why do they do this? Do the official nutritionists actually know ANYTHING about nutrition?!
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Replies

  • smolmaus
    smolmaus Posts: 442 Member
    To be fair the article I read on it did make sure and say that it was going to be almost impossible to get all the fiber you need from fruit and veg. It recommended focusing on whole grains. Suggesting nuts of all things is mental, why are they always suggested as a snack in every nutritional article I read?? Who is being paid by Big Nut?

    I have the same issue, all my meals are vegetable based and I get about 13-15g of fiber a day from those. The two slices of seeded bread I have with my breakfast is 6g by itself but that's a not-insignificant amount of my daily kcal since I'm so short. If I start eating whole grains instead of veg to boost fiber it's going to be much harder to stay inside my kcal limit.
  • ceiswyn
    ceiswyn Posts: 2,256 Member
    A few months ago I went to a pharmacy to see if they had anything to help with constipation. The pharmacist decided to advise me to eat more fruit and vegetables, drink more water, and get more exercise.

    Guess how useful that advice was.

    And note that's fruit and vegetables, specifically. She said nothing about pulses or wholegrains. I wonder if it's an issue specific to the UK that officialdom seems to think that fibre=fruit?
  • Theoldguy1
    Theoldguy1 Posts: 2,498 Member
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    ...is it just me, or is the official nutritional guidance we're given often kind of terrible?

    Today there's been a BBC news story about the benefits of fibre. So far so good, but I'm staring at the NHS nutritional advice in horror.

    Everyone tells you to eat fruits and vegetables to get fibre. Has anyone looked at the amount of fibre that's actually in most fruits and vegetables? I eat over ten portions (that's 800g) of fruits and vegetables a day, and struggle with my fibre goal. Yesterday's 11 portions of fruit and veg got me a whole... 14g of fibre. That's less than half of the new goal.

    Similarly, 'a small handful of nuts can have up to 3g of fibre'. Well, yes, a 'small handful' of nuts can indeed provide you with 3g of fibre; if you're defining 'small handful' as 28g, and I imagine everyone here knows exactly how small a handful that really is. It's also 160 calories. So anyone eating enough nuts and seeds to have a noticeable effect on their fibre intake will also be consuming a LOT of extra calories.

    Why do they do this? Do the official nutritionists actually know ANYTHING about nutrition?!

    What kind of fruits and veggies do you eat 10 servings of and don't meet 25-30g of fiber? I found this list on WebMd. If you're eating 10 servings of pretty much any combination of the items listed you're getting 25-30g of fiber.

    https://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/features/fiber-groceries

    Fruits and Vegetables
    Apples, bananas, oranges, strawberries all have around 3 to 4 grams of fiber. (Eat the apple peels -- that’s where the most fiber is!)
    Raspberries win the fiber race at 8 grams per cup.
    Exotic fruits are also good sources of fiber: A mango has 5 grams, a persimmon has 6, and 1 cup of guava has about 9.
    Dark-colored vegetables. In general, the darker the color of the vegetable, the higher the fiber content. Carrots, beets, and broccoli are fiber-rich. Collard greens and Swiss chard have 4 grams of fiber per cup. Artichokes are among the highest-fiber veggies, at 10 grams for a medium-sized one.
    Potatoes. Russet, red, and sweet potatoes all have at least 3 grams of fiber in a medium-sized spud, if you eat the skin and all.


    Dry and Canned Goods
    Stock up on beans. Navy and white beans are the most fiber-rich, but all beans are fiber-packed. Any of these is a good choice for your shopping cart: garbanzo, kidney, lima, or pinto beans. They make great soups and chilis, and are a flavorful addition to salads. Beans are also high in protein, so if you’re cutting back on red meat, they’re a healthy, filling substitute.
    Include other legumes. Peas, soybeans (edamame), and lentils are also high in fiber.

    Bread and Grains
    Check cereal labels. Most cereals have at least some fiber content, but they’re not all created equal. Any cereal with 5 or more grams of fiber per serving is a good source.
    CONTINUE READING BELOW
    YOU MIGHT LIKE


    Whole-grain breads. Seven-grain, dark rye, cracked wheat, and pumpernickel breads are good choices.
    Whole grains. Bulgur wheat, brown rice, wild rice, and barley are all tasty substitutions for white rice.
    The Snack Aisle
    Nuts and seeds.An ounce of of sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, pistachios, or almonds gives you at least 3 grams of fiber. They are also high in calories, though, so make a little go a long way.

    Popcorn . Three cups of air-popped popcorn have about 4 grams of fiber.


    The Cold Case
    Try foods with fiber added. Milk and other dairy products, and most juices, naturally have no or low fiber. New products, however, are changing that picture: Look for labels on orange juice, milk, and yogurt that say fiber is added or “fiber fortified.”
  • Kalex1975
    Kalex1975 Posts: 427 Member
    edited January 2019
    I understand the OPs frustration with the advice. I eat a lot of vegetables (hardly any fruit, usually just apples) and I usually get over 35g of fiber a day easily and sometimes get 50g or more. I took a look at my MFP fiber report over the last 90 days and the biggest contributors for me were popcorn, peanut powder (e.g. PB2), and the protein bars I eat (Questbars have a lot of fiber) - none of which are fruits or vegetables!

    Edit: apparently popcorn can also be considered a fruit (see here)
  • smolmaus
    smolmaus Posts: 442 Member
    zeejane03 wrote: »
    But who's recommending this? The OP gave an NHS link that doesn't actually say this? It's first recommendation is whole grains, then potatoes, beans, then towards the bottom is veg/fruit, with nuts finishing the list. The link the OP gave doesn't seem to be supporting her claim? (I could be reading it completely wrong though, it's early and I need coffee lol).

    It just says "fruit and veg" with no information on which fruit and veg.

    My first post at the top there I am saying that there is also a focus on whole grains so yes, we agree, but I also agree that telling people to eat f&v to boost fiber is a bit silly when you don't get that much from them, even when you eat 10+ servings a day.
  • ceiswyn
    ceiswyn Posts: 2,256 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Well no offense but if you're eating 10 servings of fruits and veggies and you're not getting adequate fiber you do not know how to make proper selections to get fiber.

    That is, as smolmaus already pointed out, precisely the point.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    edited January 2019
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    Everything I've seen on fiber stresses beans, whole grains, AND fruits and veggies.

    It can be tricky to hit a high fiber goal if you have a low calorie allowance, I'll give you that.

    That's what I see too.

    I think one issue with advice like that is that it tends to be aimed at everyone (the US's version seems in large part to be trying to find ways to communicate with kids), and so it's more about overall foods to include and ones to limit and not about "fiber: it's in these foods, get X g." Especially since fiber can be confusing with the 2 kinds in different foods.

    But if you ate the way it recommends, you'd have plenty of fiber, at least going from the US one (especially since it's pro beans and lentils and moving toward being somewhat more plant based).

    I think they are specifically trying not to say you should worry only about eating the highest fiber fruits and veg, as the variety is good too. Choosing peaches and pears on some days as your fruit and avocados and raspberries on others is what they want, not thinking of foods only as collections of specific nutrients.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,458 Member
    I am not understanding your argument at all. Of course you get fiber from fruit and vegetables. I had 42g yesterday, and only 8g of that was from bread/grain. I had a chili omelet with potato and corn muffin and an orange for breakfast, a peanut butter sandwich for snack, then tuna with vegetables for dinner, some yogurt and fruit and nuts for dessert, and then popcorn with butter.
  • ceiswyn
    ceiswyn Posts: 2,256 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    I am not understanding your argument at all. Of course you get fiber from fruit and vegetables. I had 42g yesterday, and only 8g of that was from bread/grain. I had a chili omelet with potato and corn muffin and an orange for breakfast, a peanut butter sandwich for snack, then tuna with vegetables for dinner, some yogurt and fruit and nuts for dessert, and then popcorn with butter.

    Are you counting corn as grain?

    I'd be interested to know which and how much fruit and veg you ate to get 36g of fibre out of it, given that I don't get even half that and I eat a lot.

    Of course, I generally avoid high-calorie vegetables like potatoes - I suspect you have rather more leeway there.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,458 Member
    edited January 2019
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    I am not understanding your argument at all. Of course you get fiber from fruit and vegetables. I had 42g yesterday, and only 8g of that was from bread/grain. I had a chili omelet with potato and corn muffin and an orange for breakfast, a peanut butter sandwich for snack, then tuna with vegetables for dinner, some yogurt and fruit and nuts for dessert, and then popcorn with butter.

    Are you counting corn as grain?

    I'd be interested to know which and how much fruit and veg you ate to get 36g of fibre out of it, given that I don't get even half that and I eat a lot.

    Of course, I generally avoid high-calorie vegetables like potatoes - I suspect you have rather more leeway there.

    I know I kinda cheated on the popcorn, that's 11g right there. I sometimes think of it as a grain and sometimes not, so I concede that point.

    But beans in the chili, carrots, potatoes, celery, tomato, avocado, squash, strawberries, mango, blackberries, (lots of) red leaf lettuce, walnuts, fresh ground peanut butter, and oranges were the foods that contributed. Two slices of whole wheat bread. Some cocoa powder. 2000 calories.
  • zeejane03
    zeejane03 Posts: 993 Member
    edited January 2019
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    I am not understanding your argument at all. Of course you get fiber from fruit and vegetables. I had 42g yesterday, and only 8g of that was from bread/grain. I had a chili omelet with potato and corn muffin and an orange for breakfast, a peanut butter sandwich for snack, then tuna with vegetables for dinner, some yogurt and fruit and nuts for dessert, and then popcorn with butter.

    Are you counting corn as grain?

    I'd be interested to know which and how much fruit and veg you ate to get 36g of fibre out of it, given that I don't get even half that and I eat a lot.

    Of course, I generally avoid high-calorie vegetables like potatoes - I suspect you have rather more leeway there.

    I still eat potatoes several times a week (various kinds) with a calorie allotment of around 1,400. How many calories are you working with? Could you fit in potatoes 1-2 times a week? They're pretty awesome nutritionally :)
  • ceiswyn
    ceiswyn Posts: 2,256 Member
    Yeah, I would not be counting popcorn as a 'vegetable' :) And beans absolutely have good fibre, but I probably wouldn't consider them under the generic heading of 'fruit and vegetables' - I know they technically are, but they ain't generally found in the fresh produce section of the supermarket! The official guidance tends to list beans and pulses separately, and that part I agree with :)

    (I do eat potatoes occasionally, when I fancy them, but once again I am not asking for advice on how to improve my own fibre intake because I totally know how to do that. I am pointing out the problem with advising people to eat unspecified 'fruits and vegetables' and nuts to significantly improve their fibre intake, using my own high-veg diet as an example.)
  • deannalfisher
    deannalfisher Posts: 5,600 Member
    i don't think anyone is saying ONLY eat fruits and veg to get your fiber needs - but that in the context of a well-balanced diet, fruit and veg can contribute to your overall fiber needs

    most of the veg that you listed in your post (aside from the butternut squash) are also relatively low in calories in general - so you can eat a lot for lower calories (that whole bulk eating thought)
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,458 Member
    It's still good advice in general. What really over weight person do you know who has any reasonable amount of vegetables on their daily food plan? That would be the one piece of food advice I would give: Add vegetables to every meal and snack. Like 100g at each feeding - minimum.

    When I first started losing weight, I couldn't even remember the last fresh vegetable I had purchased. Now I'm going to the store produce department twice per week.

    The dried bulk beans (and bulk grains) are in Produce at my store. :) So are nuts. And the bakery abuts Produce, so really I could get all my fiber shopping done in three minutes.
  • French_Peasant
    French_Peasant Posts: 1,639 Member
    I think the *guidance* is excellent, to hit a high amount of fiber.

    The problem is the educational article, likely written by some low-paid, not terribly knowledgeable hack, is not the greatest. It's not entirely useless, but I agree, it would be much more helpful to point out that fruits and veg can have widely varying levels of fiber, and you might want to focus on broccoli and apples and the importance of whole foods rather than things that are always or often peeled, like bananas, potatoes and eggplants.

    I also find it hard to believe that the average person in Great Britain (or the US) is getting 18 g fiber daily. It seems like I have read NHS studies lamenting that people don't even get their 5-a-day veg, and wildly popular foods like white bread, crisps, chips, and mash have much of their fiber stripped out.

    I am definitely quite pleased on the days I can nail my fiber, protein AND calories goals--just one goal alone is tough enough; to hit all three calls for very virtuous eating and/or a high amount of exercise.
  • estherdragonbat
    estherdragonbat Posts: 5,283 Member
    edited January 2019
    cmriverside wrote: »
    It's still good advice in general. What really over weight person do you know who has any reasonable amount of vegetables on their daily food plan? That would be the one piece of food advice I would give: Add vegetables to every meal and snack. Like 100g at each feeding - minimum.

    When I first started losing weight, I couldn't even remember the last fresh vegetable I had purchased. Now I'm going to the store produce department twice per week.

    The dried bulk beans (and bulk grains) are in Produce at my store. :) So are nuts. And the bakery abuts Produce, so really I could get all my fiber shopping done in three minutes.

    *Raises hand* I was (and still am!) working my way through a vegan cookbook, recipe by recipe. I was getting a decent amount of veg in my diet (and not all potatoes and ketchup either). I wasn't tracking, and I probably wasn't getting the recommended, but I'd definitely made a whole bunch of soups and salads. Just also bought a whole lot of potato knishes, naan, low-calorie snacks of which I consumed multiple portions at one sitting, etc. But veg, too. (And sometimes, those snacks were spinach knishes because spinach was low-cal. Sadly it didn't negate the phyllo/puff pastry dough in which it was wrapped...)
  • zeejane03
    zeejane03 Posts: 993 Member
    edited January 2019
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    Yeah, I would not be counting popcorn as a 'vegetable' :)And beans absolutely have good fibre, but I probably wouldn't consider them under the generic heading of 'fruit and vegetables' - I know they technically are, but they ain't generally found in the fresh produce section of the supermarket! The official guidance tends to list beans and pulses separately, and that part I agree with :)

    (I do eat potatoes occasionally, when I fancy them, but once again I am not asking for advice on how to improve my own fibre intake because I totally know how to do that. I am pointing out the problem with advising people to eat unspecified 'fruits and vegetables' and nuts to significantly improve their fibre intake, using my own high-veg diet as an example.)

    My local grocery store does actually sell them in the produce section (their sold dried, in bulk by the pound). The USDA counts beans as a vegetable and the new '10 a Day' recommendation also counts one serving of beans as part of the 10.

    I'm with you though, I always separate them because they're more of a protein source for me.

    Anyways, back to the original post-I've never personally had any expert (my doctor etc) recommend increased veg/fruit or nuts for increased fiber so I'm confused who's actually recommending this. From the NHS link I'm also not seeing this being promoted as the best way to get in fiber, but instead they're part of a comprehensive list that lists several other things first.
  • ceiswyn
    ceiswyn Posts: 2,256 Member
    Eating more fruit and veg is good advice in general, but we're not talking about general here, we're talking about fibre.

    As for "What really over weight person do you know who has any reasonable amount of vegetables on their daily food plan?" - past-me. I used to eat a lot of fruit and veg. I just ate a lot of other stuff as well.

    And as I believe I already said, the last time I sought advice on constipation I was told to eat more fruit and veg, specifically; nothing about beans or wholegrains. So that advice is out there.
  • kimny72
    kimny72 Posts: 16,011 Member
    edited January 2019
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    The point is that fruit, veg and nuts shouldn't be on that list at all.

    Fruit and veg are just not high-fibre foods unless you are eating specific ones - which the guidance does not specify. And any non-nutritionally-aware person who decides to add enough 'small handfuls' of nuts to their diet to significantly affect their fibre intake is going to run into weight gain issues pretty fast.

    I agree with you on the nuts, but I would respectfully disagree about fruits and veggies. Just like with protein, it's important to get the bulk of your fiber from foods with a big bang for your buck, but foods that are lower calorie but can add a couple more grams are important too. Whole grains and legumes can be calorific, so getting 5 - 10g of fiber from veggies and fruits may in fact be necessary to reach that 30g while still maintaining a calorie controlled diet. Nothing in the NHS info says you should get the bulk of your fiber from them, just that they can help.

    I would never be able to get 30g of fiber from just veg and fruit. But I also would hardly ever be able to get it without them.

    As with any generalized public health info, it is often oversimplified in order to not scare people away by making it too complicated, like listing specifically high fiber fruits and veg. I read the fact that it came in towards the end of the list as suggesting it was lower fiber but still higher than a lot of the convenience foods low fiber diets are often comprised of.

    I have never read or heard anyone suggest fruit & veg for constipation, other than prunes and bananas. Not sure why your pharmacist said that, but it's certainly not common advice.
  • Lounmoun
    Lounmoun Posts: 8,423 Member
    In both links in the OP I saw tips for increasing fiber that included sample days of eating a combination of whole grains, beans or lentils, fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds. I did not see the suggestion to get all of your fiber for the day from vegetables and fruits. I don't see anything terrible in the advice. They basically said there are benefits to 25-30 g of fiber a day and here are some ways of getting more.
    If you want the benefits of more fiber in your diet then plan to eat higher fiber foods. If your current choices are not meeting your goal look at other foods you can add to your diet.
    I feel like maybe the frustration comes from wanting to bulk out your diet with very low calorie vegetables and finding that to get more fiber you might need to eat some more calorie dense choices.
  • CSARdiver
    CSARdiver Posts: 6,252 Member
    This is one of the key issues with broad sweeping public policy statements. These are allegedly designed to influence the average consumer, but typically lacking in any substantive information or context.

    Be skeptical of all information.
  • MadisonMolly2017
    MadisonMolly2017 Posts: 11,157 Member
    wj2dxzdqowk4.png

    Kashi cereal - 30-50 g
    Ezekiel Sesame 4:9 bread - 2 slices
    Nuts, unsalted, dry roasted or raw - 1-2 oz daily
    Lots of berries, minimum 6 oz daily
    2 apples a day @ 5-5.5 oz each
    Veggies: cabbage, carrots, tomatoes 1-3 3oz servings a day
    Dark chocolate - yes it has fiber .5-1 oz
    Unsalted tortilla chips - ditto (occasional)
    Peanut butter, unsalted 30g daily

    I ate 2,088 daily calories on avg in 2018. It does make it easier.

    I notice if I eat out, fiber numbers drop precipitously...

    My app says 14g fiber per 1,000 calories
    Eaten (for women)
  • zeejane03
    zeejane03 Posts: 993 Member
    edited January 2019
    So I've been reading more on the big study/news about fiber that came out and reading through interviews with some of the authors of the study-they were emphasizing the importance of whole grains as a good source for fiber and downplayed vegetable/fruit as a high source of it. So again, I'm not seeing it recommended by any expert in the field to get a lot of your fiber from veg/fruit. Not really sure what OP is seeing that's different?

    And then from the Lancet-

    Findings from prospective studies and clinical trials associated with relatively high intakes of dietary fibre and whole grains were complementary, and striking dose-response evidence indicates that the relationships to several non-communicable diseases could be causal. Implementation of recommendations to increase dietary fibre intake and to replace refined grains with whole grains is expected to benefit human health.

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31809-9/fulltext
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