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Pesticides in organic versus conventional farming
magnusthenerd
Posts: 1,207 Member
in Debate Club
@kshama2001 suggested this be on a different thread.
So yes, rotenone has moved off of the schedule of FDA approved pesticides for organic. Last I heard read it was up for removal, and it seems that has come to pass.
There is still the matter of cuprics - copper derived pesticides like copper sulfate. Per a source I think would be agreeable:
https://non-gmoreport.com/articles/debunking-alternate-facts-pesticides-organic/
That said, Copper Sulfate has an LD50 of 300 mg/kg oral in rats.
Glyphosate, which seems to be held as something of a boogyman by organics for its ubiquity and relation to a certain agricultural products company, has and LD50 of 5,000 mg/kg for rats.
For reference, common table salt has a LD50 of 3,000 mg/kg in rats, though 12,357mg/kg for humans - little curious who approved that study.
So similar to my rotenone commment - I'd also rather have to drink glyphosate by weight over copper sulfate by weight if I found myself forced.
I can look into some other organic approved pesticides and dig up an LD50.
Note, I'm not in any sense making a claim about the average amount of pesticides exposure that will person will receive from conventional versus organic. On the average, it isn't unreasonable that pesticide load will be less in organic and I've seen a decent study or two that shows that.
What I am skeptical of is the actual utility of it. I have seen at least one report that suggests the advantages of increased fruit and vegetable consumption far outweighs any consideration of pesticide use, so making people afraid to just go ahead and get conventional is counterproductive from a health standpoint: https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cpdb/pdfs/Paracelsus.pdf
So yes, rotenone has moved off of the schedule of FDA approved pesticides for organic. Last I heard read it was up for removal, and it seems that has come to pass.
There is still the matter of cuprics - copper derived pesticides like copper sulfate. Per a source I think would be agreeable:
https://non-gmoreport.com/articles/debunking-alternate-facts-pesticides-organic/
The report does go on to say they are also usable in conventional farming, but I fail to see why organics ever point that out - organic farming is a restrictive subset of farming practices, so there is nothing in it that could not be done as a single practice by any other farmer not mandated to follow those restrictions.Copper controversy
Critics also cite the use of copper-based pesticides, which are used as fungicides in organic and conventional fruit production.
Copper does have issues.
That said, Copper Sulfate has an LD50 of 300 mg/kg oral in rats.
Glyphosate, which seems to be held as something of a boogyman by organics for its ubiquity and relation to a certain agricultural products company, has and LD50 of 5,000 mg/kg for rats.
For reference, common table salt has a LD50 of 3,000 mg/kg in rats, though 12,357mg/kg for humans - little curious who approved that study.
So similar to my rotenone commment - I'd also rather have to drink glyphosate by weight over copper sulfate by weight if I found myself forced.
I can look into some other organic approved pesticides and dig up an LD50.
Note, I'm not in any sense making a claim about the average amount of pesticides exposure that will person will receive from conventional versus organic. On the average, it isn't unreasonable that pesticide load will be less in organic and I've seen a decent study or two that shows that.
What I am skeptical of is the actual utility of it. I have seen at least one report that suggests the advantages of increased fruit and vegetable consumption far outweighs any consideration of pesticide use, so making people afraid to just go ahead and get conventional is counterproductive from a health standpoint: https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cpdb/pdfs/Paracelsus.pdf
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Replies
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The following links might be useful references:
Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production
Nonsynthetic substances prohibited for use in organic crop production
It's important to note that just like conventional farming, not all organic-compatible pesticides are allowed in every situation. Many will have limits on amounts applied and timing of applications with respect to harvest times, and some can only be used in certain crop systems for treatment of specific pests.
I think public pressure and mounting environmental concerns are pushing the whole pesticide industry away from broad-spectrum pesticides and towards more highly-specific pesticides. I wonder how this will effect organic farming since most organic pesticides are pretty broad-spectrum or rather ineffective, with few exceptions like Bt (Bacillus thuringiensis).3 -
Consider this: "organic" can have very odd definitions in some countries.
In China human waste is "organic fertilizer."4 -
I think most of the public thinks pesticides aren't even used in organic farming let alone consider this level of detail.11
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »I think most of the public thinks pesticides aren't even used in organic farming let alone consider this level of detail.
As a member of "the public" I can confirm this
Consider this: "organic" can have very odd definitions in some countries.
In China human waste is "organic fertilizer."
Aside from the "eeeewww" factor, waste from various animals has always been used as fertilizer. Unless there's some biological potential for spreading disease (I don't know if this would be the case) it's a pretty logical extension, I think.1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »I think most of the public thinks pesticides aren't even used in organic farming let alone consider this level of detail.
As a member of "the public" I can confirm thisConsider this: "organic" can have very odd definitions in some countries.
In China human waste is "organic fertilizer."
Aside from the "eeeewww" factor, waste from various animals has always been used as fertilizer. Unless there's some biological potential for spreading disease (I don't know if this would be the case) it's a pretty logical extension, I think.
Human waste is more infectious in general than other animals.
All manure carries disease risk. A disproportionate amount of recalled produce is organic because they cannot use synthetic fertilizer, which leaves manure.1 -
Consider this: "organic" can have very odd definitions in some countries.
In China human waste is "organic fertilizer."
In the US, human manure is not permitted in organic farming, but its use is starting to boom in conventional agriculture. It’s still an organic fertilizer, it just can’t be used by organic growers.0 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I think most of the public thinks pesticides aren't even used in organic farming let alone consider this level of detail.
As a member of "the public" I can confirm thisConsider this: "organic" can have very odd definitions in some countries.
In China human waste is "organic fertilizer."
Aside from the "eeeewww" factor, waste from various animals has always been used as fertilizer. Unless there's some biological potential for spreading disease (I don't know if this would be the case) it's a pretty logical extension, I think.
Human waste is more infectious in general than other animals.
All manure carries disease risk. A disproportionate amount of recalled produce is organic because they cannot use synthetic fertilizer, which leaves manure.
While it is certainly true that all manure carries risk, it is not true that manure is the only fertilizer available to organic growers. I personally use composted yard waste and veg, greensand, soybean meal, blood meal, bone meal, feather meal, fish emulsion, kelp emulsion, agricultural lime, and a variety of other minerals as needed, in addition to worm castings, bunny manure, bagged cow manure, and the occasional trip to a stable.
Organic growers are held to rigorous standards for the use of manure, including proper aging, temperature requirements during the composting phase, and a 120 day buffer between manuring and harvesting. Conventional ag wisely makes extensive use of the contents of the Slurrystores you see on large animal operations as well, probably to a greater extent than organic just because organic is still pretty small.
I would be interested in seeing credible year over year numbers (pegged to production levels) backing your claim that organic recalls are disproportionate.
Also, I don’t recommend drinking ANY agricultural chemical you find on the shelf in the farm’s storage facility.3 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »I think most of the public thinks pesticides aren't even used in organic farming let alone consider this level of detail.
Most of the public is comprised of people who would come across as drooling idiots if you asked them ANY ag related question, even a gimme such as, explain the importance of the NPK ratio on that bag of fertilizer you are dumping on your lawn.0 -
French_Peasant wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I think most of the public thinks pesticides aren't even used in organic farming let alone consider this level of detail.
As a member of "the public" I can confirm thisConsider this: "organic" can have very odd definitions in some countries.
In China human waste is "organic fertilizer."
Aside from the "eeeewww" factor, waste from various animals has always been used as fertilizer. Unless there's some biological potential for spreading disease (I don't know if this would be the case) it's a pretty logical extension, I think.
Human waste is more infectious in general than other animals.
All manure carries disease risk. A disproportionate amount of recalled produce is organic because they cannot use synthetic fertilizer, which leaves manure.
While it is certainly true that all manure carries risk, it is not true that manure is the only fertilizer available to organic growers. I personally use composted yard waste and veg, greensand, soybean meal, blood meal, bone meal, feather meal, fish emulsion, kelp emulsion, agricultural lime, and a variety of other minerals as needed, in addition to worm castings, bunny manure, bagged cow manure, and the occasional trip to a stable.
Organic growers are held to rigorous standards for the use of manure, including proper aging, temperature requirements during the composting phase, and a 120 day buffer between manuring and harvesting. Conventional ag wisely makes extensive use of the contents of the Slurrystores you see on large animal operations as well, probably to a greater extent than organic just because organic is still pretty small.
I would be interested in seeing credible year over year numbers (pegged to production levels) backing your claim that organic recalls are disproportionate.
Also, I don’t recommend drinking ANY agricultural chemical you find on the shelf in the farm’s storage facility.
Well I could get one article that I think will just result in the author being attacked from my recollection of it.
So instead in 2015:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/21/business/recalls-of-organic-food-on-the-rise-report-says.html
Organic made up 7% of recalls for 2015 at that point.
As of 2018:
http://www.startribune.com/americans-are-eating-more-organic-food-than-ever-survey-finds/424061513/
Organic had grown to over 5% of sales, so presumably was less than 5% in 2015.
The whole issue came to my notice with the whole Chipotle stomach virus issues - most of those were attributed to them changing their producers.0 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I think most of the public thinks pesticides aren't even used in organic farming let alone consider this level of detail.
As a member of "the public" I can confirm thisConsider this: "organic" can have very odd definitions in some countries.
In China human waste is "organic fertilizer."
Aside from the "eeeewww" factor, waste from various animals has always been used as fertilizer. Unless there's some biological potential for spreading disease (I don't know if this would be the case) it's a pretty logical extension, I think.
Human waste is more infectious in general than other animals.
All manure carries disease risk. A disproportionate amount of recalled produce is organic because they cannot use synthetic fertilizer, which leaves manure.
While it is certainly true that all manure carries risk, it is not true that manure is the only fertilizer available to organic growers. I personally use composted yard waste and veg, greensand, soybean meal, blood meal, bone meal, feather meal, fish emulsion, kelp emulsion, agricultural lime, and a variety of other minerals as needed, in addition to worm castings, bunny manure, bagged cow manure, and the occasional trip to a stable.
Organic growers are held to rigorous standards for the use of manure, including proper aging, temperature requirements during the composting phase, and a 120 day buffer between manuring and harvesting. Conventional ag wisely makes extensive use of the contents of the Slurrystores you see on large animal operations as well, probably to a greater extent than organic just because organic is still pretty small.
I would be interested in seeing credible year over year numbers (pegged to production levels) backing your claim that organic recalls are disproportionate.
Also, I don’t recommend drinking ANY agricultural chemical you find on the shelf in the farm’s storage facility.
Well I could get one article that I think will just result in the author being attacked from my recollection of it.
So instead in 2015:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/21/business/recalls-of-organic-food-on-the-rise-report-says.html
Organic made up 7% of recalls for 2015 at that point.
As of 2018:
http://www.startribune.com/americans-are-eating-more-organic-food-than-ever-survey-finds/424061513/
Organic had grown to over 5% of sales, so presumably was less than 5% in 2015.
The whole issue came to my notice with the whole Chipotle stomach virus issues - most of those were attributed to them changing their producers.
The NY Times article is unpersuasive as to the point you are trying to make. Potentially it is showing a one year blip, based on one particular approach to crunching the numbers put out by one company, and persuasively disputed by the trade association. I am interested in a year over year correlation with numbers and analysis in a peer reviewed article or put out by a government entity such as the USDA or CDC.
I looked too and just found a flurry of articles focused on this one year. N=1 doesn’t prove much. I am genuinely interested because I grow for my family and manage a school/food bank garden using techniques that far exceed baseline organic standards, and I try to be vigilant with safety issues.0 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »The whole issue came to my notice with the whole Chipotle stomach virus issues - most of those were attributed to them changing their producers.
Also, what is the connection with Chipotle to specifically organic food recalls? I don’t believe that any organic connection has been identified with the E. coli issue in 2015, which I believe you are referring to since it would be crop or animal related, as opposed to the norovirus spread by sick or dirty workers in 2017. It is admittedly difficult keeping up with all of Chipotle’s issues.
https://www.fda.gov/Food/RecallsOutbreaksEmergencies/Outbreaks/ucm470410.htm
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magnusthenerd wrote: »
Aside from the "eeeewww" factor, waste from various animals has always been used as fertilizer. Unless there's some biological potential for spreading disease (I don't know if this would be the case) it's a pretty logical extension, I think.
there is actually an interesting pilot project based out of Tucson, AZ re: human waste made into compost. With the water issues there, a local group wanted to be able to zone for composting toilets that use no water. They had to do a pilot program, studying if human waste based compost was safe, and if so, how to make it safe.
From what I've read, human waste based compost passed with flying colors, made safe compost that was tested for diseases,etc... So currently, in Tucson, AZ, one can put in a composting toilet if one wishes. I believe the study itself may be available somewhere online, but I haven't tracked it down in a long while.0
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