when building endurance - frequency vs duration?

jjpptt2

When the goal is to build overall endurance, I know the benefits of gradually increasing the duration of your workouts. But what role does frequency play? Say...

• 2 workouts per week - 1 "comfortable" and 1 "long" -vs -
• 3 workouts per week - 3 "comfortable" and 0 "long" -vs -
• 3 workouts per week - 2 "comfortable" and 1 "long" -vs -
• 4 workouts per week = 4 "comfortable" and 0 "long"

I wonder where the line is between optimal progression and something is better than nothing...

If it matters, I'm asking/thinking about this in the context of cycling, but I would assuming the same holds for running?

deannalfisher

in my experience (and not really answering your question) - its more about quality than quantity - but at a minimum i would say 3 workouts - the cycling plan i'm starting next week is 3 workouts - 2 intervals (hard, not comfortable) and then a long session; but it also has 1-2 cross-training sessions for the week (swim, weights etc)

jjpptt2

What do you mean by "quality of the workout"? Effort/intensity?

deannalfisher

i mean take say just pedaling for an hour with no effort vs. a structured 1hr workout with specific measurable goals - the latter will help you more in the long run than the former; the same goes with - do you workout because you need to regardless of how you feel or do you take rest days

jjpptt2

Gotcha, thanks.

NorthCascades

Cycling is a low impact sport, you don't require the same kind if time off as running. I can ride a marathon today and do it again tomorrow - what micro fractures?

In general when you're starting out, you should just ride for fun. That will come with the side effect of improving your fitness.

Down the line, you'll want one long ride per week, one hard ride, and several Z2 rides. If you're young do two hard rides per week. Long is relative to your goals, hard is hill repeats or a fast group ride.

firef1y72

I run and am building endurance,
I have 4/5 actual workout runs.

Sunday : long run (increasing 1mile every other week), comfortable pace
Monday : recovery run (3.1 just getting round)
Wednesday : |Early morning sprints, mid length run in afternoon (increasing 0.5mile a week about 10miles less than Sunday's run) race pace
Thursday : Hill intervals, 30min/3.1 of hills with warm up and cool down included in distance. This is sometimes indoors where I can control the incline but mostly outdoors tackling one of the local hills

Each of the various type of run has a part to play in building endurance in running and I would imagine the same is true for cycling

jjpptt2

A bit more context for my question/post...

At this point in my life, and for a number of reasons/factors, it's hard for me to put everything on hold and just go spin for 90+ minutes in my basement. But I can get in few hour(ish) sessions on my lunch break each week. I'm wondering if those hour long sessions are going to benefit me much, if at all, once the weather improves and I'm able to get back outside.


As of today, I'm not concerned about racing any more, but I would like to get back to where I can ride 45ish minutes to work in the morning, then 90+ minutes in the afternoon home from work, and be able to do longer rides of 3ish hours on the weekend without having to worry about calling my wife for a ride home (i.e up the last big hill).

tulips_and_tea

jjpptt2 wrote: »

A bit more context for my question/post...

At this point in my life, and for a number of reasons/factors, it's hard for me to put everything on hold and just go spin for 90+ minutes in my basement. But I can get in few hour(ish) sessions on my lunch break each week. I'm wondering if those hour long sessions are going to benefit me much, if at all, once the weather improves and I'm able to get back outside.


As of today, I'm not concerned about racing any more, but I would like to get back to where I can ride 45ish minutes to work in the morning, then 90+ minutes in the afternoon home from work, and be able to do longer rides of 3ish hours on the weekend without having to worry about calling my wife for a ride home (i.e up the last big hill).

I'd say absolutely. I mean, why not? IMO, building endurance takes consistency. Long workouts vs. short, more intense workouts shouldn't be an "either /or". Incorporate both whenever you can. Benefits will accumulate over time. That's what worked for me, anyway. I realize everyone is different.

garystrickland357

Here's what I'm finally learning (I'm hard headed). I'm guilty of spending too much time doing workouts of medium intensity - pretty hard. I'm learning that I need to spend more time at the "ends". For cycling or running I try to get in a really hard interval workout - usually on Tuesday for me. Then Wed is a really easy intensity. Thursday maybe a hill session or tempo run. Friday is a rest day. Saturday might be a long run and Sunday a long ride. Monday is a rest day or really short, easy spin on the bike.
This is doing me more good than lots of miles with the same intensity.

jjpptt2

FWIW, I do play basketball 2-3x week, for 45-60 minutes. The nature of basketball makes it a pretty interval-ish type workout of fairly high intensity. So while it's not cycling, I do think some of hte CV benefits translate. But they are all at that same duration - about an hour.

So my week ends up looking something like...

• 2-3 "runs" per week, interval(ish) in nature, 45-60 minutes @ medium/high intensity
• 2-3 spins per week, steady state, 45-75 minutes @ medium/low intensity
• 1 strength session per week, full body, heavy lifting

jjpptt2

Funny... for as long as I've been in the MFP forums, you'd think I'd know by now that there is no such thing as a simple, easy question. Everything has and needs context. Maybe now I've given enough context with my follow-up posts that we can actually have a meaningful conversation... *rolls eyes at myself... damn noob*

NorthCascades

Training Peaks has a guide on training for Gran Fondos. One thing if says is if you can't go out and do a 5k calorie ride in a day, do two 2,500 calorie rides in two days. (You can measure in minutes or cals, the goal without way is to keep delivering energy to the pedals.)

So yes I think what you're doing is going to help you come spring.

sijomial

jjpptt2 wrote: »

A bit more context for my question/post...

At this point in my life, and for a number of reasons/factors, it's hard for me to put everything on hold and just go spin for 90+ minutes in my basement. But I can get in few hour(ish) sessions on my lunch break each week. I'm wondering if those hour long sessions are going to benefit me much, if at all, once the weather improves and I'm able to get back outside.


As of today, I'm not concerned about racing any more, but I would like to get back to where I can ride 45ish minutes to work in the morning, then 90+ minutes in the afternoon home from work, and be able to do longer rides of 3ish hours on the weekend without having to worry about calling my wife for a ride home (i.e up the last big hill).

Yes the shorter sessions can help you and I also agree with the poster above about quality workouts.
In winter I do the technical training sessions which are ideal indoors where all variables are controlled.
But without any long rides (90mins is the most my spirit can tolerate indoors) as I gain power and improve my FTP I do also lose some endurance.

For my Spring to Autumn training prep before long distance events my general structure is four rides a week: two moderate (distance & intensity), one hard (hills or speed) and one long. Over the weeks the long ride gets longer progressively but the moderate ones not so much, they are the ones that fit in my day, the long rides my day has to fit around my ride if that makes sense.

MikePfirrman

I only workout at lunch and then one longish cardio session on Sunday. What everyone else has already said. I mostly row, but have an injured back right now, so I'm doing a ton on an Assault Bike. Same as rowing.

Keep it simple. Easier days easy, hard days really hard, not more than two hard days unless you're prepping for a race and adding "stress", necessary for race prep. Otherwise, just do as much volume as you can in two/three days w/ one of those days ideally being longer, then add in two harder sessions. One sprints, one more AT work. If you only have four days, cut out one day of easier work. If 3 days, that's harder, but you'd be down to one hard day (maybe alternating shorter sprint intervals with AT work) and two volume days that are easier.

I do know people that only do HIIT and have some success over 40, but the caveat on that is that they have a strong history/base of years of cardio and their heart has certain physiological adaptations from years doing lots of volume.

kcjchang

jjpptt2 wrote: »

FWIW, I do play basketball 2-3x week, for 45-60 minutes. The nature of basketball makes it a pretty interval-ish type workout of fairly high intensity. So while it's not cycling, I do think some of hte CV benefits translate. But they are all at that same duration - about an hour.

So my week ends up looking something like...

• 2-3 "runs" per week, interval(ish) in nature, 45-60 minutes @ medium/high intensity
• 2-3 spins per week, steady state, 45-75 minutes @ medium/low intensity
• 1 strength session per week, full body, heavy lifting

Sorry, all studies thus far say otherwise. Cycling helps with running but running is a detriment for cycling. The benefit of weight lifting is also questionable unless you're competing track or a stick figure pro rider. They are good for overall health but does nothing to improve one's fitness for riding. There's nothing that can substitute time in the saddle.

jjpptt2

kcjchang wrote: »

jjpptt2 wrote: »

FWIW, I do play basketball 2-3x week, for 45-60 minutes. The nature of basketball makes it a pretty interval-ish type workout of fairly high intensity. So while it's not cycling, I do think some of hte CV benefits translate. But they are all at that same duration - about an hour.

So my week ends up looking something like...

• 2-3 "runs" per week, interval(ish) in nature, 45-60 minutes @ medium/high intensity
• 2-3 spins per week, steady state, 45-75 minutes @ medium/low intensity
• 1 strength session per week, full body, heavy lifting

Sorry, all studies thus far say otherwise. Cycling helps with running but running is a detriment for cycling. The benefit of weight lifting is also questionable unless you're competing track or a stick figure pro rider. They are good for overall health but does nothing to improve one's fitness for riding. There's nothing that can substitute time in the saddle.

I find it hard to believe that it's that black and white, especially for a weekend rider like myself. Ride or why bother? I'm not saying any of those other things equal time in the saddle, but they have to be better than time on the couch, no?

MikePfirrman

jjpptt2 wrote: »

kcjchang wrote: »

jjpptt2 wrote: »

FWIW, I do play basketball 2-3x week, for 45-60 minutes. The nature of basketball makes it a pretty interval-ish type workout of fairly high intensity. So while it's not cycling, I do think some of hte CV benefits translate. But they are all at that same duration - about an hour.

So my week ends up looking something like...

• 2-3 "runs" per week, interval(ish) in nature, 45-60 minutes @ medium/high intensity
• 2-3 spins per week, steady state, 45-75 minutes @ medium/low intensity
• 1 strength session per week, full body, heavy lifting

Sorry, all studies thus far say otherwise. Cycling helps with running but running is a detriment for cycling. The benefit of weight lifting is also questionable unless you're competing track or a stick figure pro rider. They are good for overall health but does nothing to improve one's fitness for riding. There's nothing that can substitute time in the saddle.

I find it hard to believe that it's that black and white, especially for a weekend rider like myself. Ride or why bother? I'm not saying any of those other things equal time in the saddle, but they have to be better than time on the couch, no?

I've moderated, more or less, the beginner rowing thread on C2s forums for a couple of years. He's more or less right, running vs rowing or biking doesn't translate really well, but you do you. If it's about getting back in shape, I know tons of guys that do cross training and really enjoy it while staying very competitive in their times.

In terms of biking, rowing or even a SkiErg would likely be more beneficial than running. As a former trail runner that stunk for over four/five years, running is it's own class of sport. At the risk of ticking off some runners, it's essentially graceful falling with efficiency and not much power. Have you ever heard of a runner that knows what Watts rating they are peak or what they can hold for an hour? It's also tolerance on your joints, which I couldn't do well. You also get punished for power/bulk/strength unless you're a sprinter. You do to a certain extent also with biking, but not nearly as much.

Just have fun and do what you like/enjoy. I know some guys that are near the top of the world's standing on Indoor Rowing that love Cross Fit, Biking and even mountain climbing. Many Mountain Bikers too. There are many traditional rowers that say the same thing -- stay sports specific, no need for weights, etc. There are people proving it can done the opposite way and you're personally not even talking competing. You're in it for fitness and a bit more stamina. Maybe add some hills in on your runs and have fun with it. That could be an interval workout for you.

spiriteagle99

My understanding for running is that there are physical adaptations the body makes after 90 minutes that help with endurance. I don't remember the details, but they have to do with fat burning, building mitochondria, and muscle efficiency. Overall mileage is generally more important than the length of your longest run/ride, but at the same time those adaptations will make you stronger for long distance running than if you do all your runs short. I assume the same is true for biking, but don't know for sure.

Djproulx

If it were me, and having decent cycling fitness come spring was my goal, then i might overweight my available time towards another bike/spin and perhaps compromise on my run frequency given time constraints.

kcjchang

spiriteagle99 wrote: »

My understanding for running is that there are physical adaptations the body makes after 90 minutes that help with endurance. I don't remember the details, but they have to do with fat burning, building mitochondria, and muscle efficiency. Overall mileage is generally more important than the length of your longest run/ride, but at the same time those adaptations will make you stronger for long distance running than if you do all your runs short. I assume the same is true for biking, but don't know for sure.

2.5+ hours. I normally hold off threshold and higher workouts until I can hit 2.5-3 hours at tempo with only water for the slow twitch (typically by mid April). Zones based on functional threshold power.

Machka9

jjpptt2 wrote: »

When the goal is to build overall endurance, I know the benefits of gradually increasing the duration of your workouts. But what role does frequency play? Say...

I wonder where the line is between optimal progression and something is better than nothing...

If it matters, I'm asking/thinking about this in the context of cycling, but I would assuming the same holds for running?

When I was training for the Paris-Brest-Paris 1200 I did the following ...

Monday: Rest day. Usually I just cycled to and from work (13.5 km) and walked to get my groceries (2 km).

Tuesday: Strength Building Day. Intervals or "Hill Repeats". For me, living in Manitoba at the time, "Hill Repeats" consisted of riding up and down a set of nearby overpasses as fast as I could. You do what you can. Also my 13.5 km commute.

Wednesday: Medium length ride. I'd ride to work as usual, then come home, get rid of my backpack, grab a granola bar, and head out for another ride. Total 50-80 km for the day.

Thursday: Depended on how I felt. Commute of course. Plus might be another Strength day or might be a relaxed Medium day.

Friday: Rest day. Commute + groceries.

Saturday: Long day. At least 160 km.

Sunday: Not quite as long day. At least 100 km.


On long weekends, I'd adjust that so that I'd ride back to back centuries (160 km) and then cool down with a 100 km on the Monday.


So if by endurance, you're thinking of riding Audax/Randonneuring events, that might help.

Machka9

kcjchang wrote: »

jjpptt2 wrote: »

FWIW, I do play basketball 2-3x week, for 45-60 minutes. The nature of basketball makes it a pretty interval-ish type workout of fairly high intensity. So while it's not cycling, I do think some of hte CV benefits translate. But they are all at that same duration - about an hour.

So my week ends up looking something like...

• 2-3 "runs" per week, interval(ish) in nature, 45-60 minutes @ medium/high intensity
• 2-3 spins per week, steady state, 45-75 minutes @ medium/low intensity
• 1 strength session per week, full body, heavy lifting

Sorry, all studies thus far say otherwise. Cycling helps with running but running is a detriment for cycling. The benefit of weight lifting is also questionable unless you're competing track or a stick figure pro rider. They are good for overall health but does nothing to improve one's fitness for riding. There's nothing that can substitute time in the saddle.

I'm not sure I agree.

I'm a long distance cyclist.

When I was really into long distance cycling and training for 1200 km events, cycling was my main thing. However, I found that upper body weight lifting and core work went a long way to helping me on the long distance rides. It helped reduce my fatigue level, helped me keep my posture, and helped reduce aches and pains.

Recently, I haven't been able to cycle as much.

However, I have still managed to cycle distances as long as 400 km with a combination of cycling, running, walking, weight lifting, and climbing stairs. I found the running and climbing stairs (real stairs) both helped with my cardiovascular system. Climbing stairs helped with my hill climbing skills. Weight lifting, as mentioned, helped my stamina.


Right now, I'm trying to build up to a marathon and get back into centuries again. We'll see how it goes.