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Kevin Bass presents Stephan Guyenet vs Gary Taubes debate on Joe Rogan podcast March 19 2019
Orphia
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Kevin Bass, MS:
"The low-carbohydrate diet is the most popular contenders for an explanatory framework of what causes obesity. My belief is that it is wrong, and that Stephan’s view is mostly or entirely right.
Having a public conversation about who is actually right is important in order to start moving to firm conclusions among the majority of the population about what has caused the obesity pandemic. This will in turn allow for policymakers to start making real decisions. So my belief is that public discussions like these are not just important scientifically but are the critical first steps to improving the health of, ultimately, billions of people, present and future.
Since this debate is with Gary Taubes himself and Stephan Guyenet, his most important critic—that is why I called this one of the most important scientific debates of the decade: they are both representatives of two of the major dominant strains of thought on obesity. This debate has the potential to be of historical importance.
https://nutritionalrevolution.org/2019/03/17/taubes-vs-guyenet/
Summary of Guyenet's and Taubes's differing positions on obesity and insulin resistance:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10O4V087Zri-MQ8EHINF1SpasQbZzkFF9/view
Simple diagram (Taubes at top, Guyenet at bottom):
"Gary’s model of obesity goes something like this: carbohydrate intake causes an increase in insulin. This increase in insulin causes fat to be trapped inside fat cells and energy substrate to be unavailable for use by the body, resulting in internal starvation. To compensate, appetite increases, energy intake increases, and obesity results."
"To Stephan, obesity is caused by the omnipresence of calorie-rich, delicious foods high in both carbohydrates and fat. The brain, rather than the body, regulates body fat, and differences in body fatness between people in Western countries is largely due to differences in brains (with most obesity genetics discovered to this point being brain-related). Stephan’s understanding of obesity is the synthesis of the scientific community’s current understanding. This is in contrast to Gary Taubes’s understanding, which is often at odds with the scientific community’s. Stephan, along with a handful of other bloggers, has long battled with virtually every aspect of Gary Taubes’s and his followers’ ideas about obesity. Stephan and others contend that Taubes and his followers cherrypick their evidence and distort what the field has to offer."
Gary (and Joe Rogan) are Keto/LCHF proponents.
Stephan Guyenet has improved on "The Conventional Model" (CICO) in depth and his field has brought to light the effects of leptin, ghrelin, and the satiety/hunger hormones.
March 19 2019 on the Joe Rogan Experience.
http://podcasts.joerogan.net/
"The low-carbohydrate diet is the most popular contenders for an explanatory framework of what causes obesity. My belief is that it is wrong, and that Stephan’s view is mostly or entirely right.
Having a public conversation about who is actually right is important in order to start moving to firm conclusions among the majority of the population about what has caused the obesity pandemic. This will in turn allow for policymakers to start making real decisions. So my belief is that public discussions like these are not just important scientifically but are the critical first steps to improving the health of, ultimately, billions of people, present and future.
Since this debate is with Gary Taubes himself and Stephan Guyenet, his most important critic—that is why I called this one of the most important scientific debates of the decade: they are both representatives of two of the major dominant strains of thought on obesity. This debate has the potential to be of historical importance.
https://nutritionalrevolution.org/2019/03/17/taubes-vs-guyenet/
Summary of Guyenet's and Taubes's differing positions on obesity and insulin resistance:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10O4V087Zri-MQ8EHINF1SpasQbZzkFF9/view
Simple diagram (Taubes at top, Guyenet at bottom):
"Gary’s model of obesity goes something like this: carbohydrate intake causes an increase in insulin. This increase in insulin causes fat to be trapped inside fat cells and energy substrate to be unavailable for use by the body, resulting in internal starvation. To compensate, appetite increases, energy intake increases, and obesity results."
"To Stephan, obesity is caused by the omnipresence of calorie-rich, delicious foods high in both carbohydrates and fat. The brain, rather than the body, regulates body fat, and differences in body fatness between people in Western countries is largely due to differences in brains (with most obesity genetics discovered to this point being brain-related). Stephan’s understanding of obesity is the synthesis of the scientific community’s current understanding. This is in contrast to Gary Taubes’s understanding, which is often at odds with the scientific community’s. Stephan, along with a handful of other bloggers, has long battled with virtually every aspect of Gary Taubes’s and his followers’ ideas about obesity. Stephan and others contend that Taubes and his followers cherrypick their evidence and distort what the field has to offer."
Gary (and Joe Rogan) are Keto/LCHF proponents.
Stephan Guyenet has improved on "The Conventional Model" (CICO) in depth and his field has brought to light the effects of leptin, ghrelin, and the satiety/hunger hormones.
March 19 2019 on the Joe Rogan Experience.
http://podcasts.joerogan.net/
14
Replies
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I really want Joe Rogan to turn to Taubes and say "that's wild, you ever try research post 1980?"8
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Like Virta or PURE?
I think it will be a non debate. Taubes has said that he doesn't know how much his ideas are correct. Both men overlap a lot in their thinking.
I think it may come down to picking apart epidemiological studies.4 -
Like Virta or PURE?
I think it will be a non debate. Taubes has said that he doesn't know how much his ideas are correct. Both men overlap a lot in their thinking.
I think it may come down to picking apart epidemiological studies.
No, more in terms of the psychology of food recall. Taubes narrative seems to be that overweight people eat as few calories as they claim.
Seems odd for Taubes to write multiple books on a subject he's unsure about.
I really don't see how their positions would be that similar.10 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »Like Virta or PURE?
I think it will be a non debate. Taubes has said that he doesn't know how much his ideas are correct. Both men overlap a lot in their thinking.
I think it may come down to picking apart epidemiological studies.
No, more in terms of the psychology of food recall. Taubes narrative seems to be that overweight people eat as few calories as they claim.
Seems odd for Taubes to write multiple books on a subject he's unsure about.
I really don't see how their positions would be that similar.
Taubes is fairly certain the insulin weight model is correct but I have heard him discuss that no one knows how much of a factor it can play in weight and health management... how correct it is. He admits there are other factors at play when people gain weight than just the carbs they eat.
I know his model applies for me but it isnt everything to how I control weight.5 -
I'm not sure what the two bolded is taken to mean together. I can take it as the aphorism that "All models are false, just some are useful", which is a true enough explanation of all science.magnusthenerd wrote: »Like Virta or PURE?
I think it will be a non debate. Taubes has said that he doesn't know how much his ideas are correct. Both men overlap a lot in their thinking.
I think it may come down to picking apart epidemiological studies.
No, more in terms of the psychology of food recall. Taubes narrative seems to be that overweight people eat as few calories as they claim.
Seems odd for Taubes to write multiple books on a subject he's unsure about.
I really don't see how their positions would be that similar.
Taubes is fairly certain the insulin weight model is correct but I have heard him discuss that no one knows how much of a factor it can play in weight and health management... how correct it is. He admits there are other factors at play when people gain weight than just the carbs they eat.
I know his model applies for me but it isnt everything to how I control weight.
I suppose I take it you mean earlier by he isn't certain is correct, you mean he's actually uncertain of how significant it is, how explanatory it is in any more complete model of weight?
The diagram version above really can't be correct. People undergoing high insulin and insulin resistance don't have their metabolism lowered - it goes up.
Guyenet already has a pretty good blog post about why insulin can't be particularly pivotal in hunger regulation - the way weight loss increases insulin sensitivity means losing weight would be a positive feedback cycle: lose weight, sensivity goes up, hunger is less, loss more weight, sensitivity goes up more, hunger down less, loss more...4 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »
I'm not sure what the two bolded is taken to mean together. I can take it as the aphorism that "All models are false, just some are useful", which is a true enough explanation of all science.magnusthenerd wrote: »Like Virta or PURE?
I think it will be a non debate. Taubes has said that he doesn't know how much his ideas are correct. Both men overlap a lot in their thinking.
I think it may come down to picking apart epidemiological studies.
No, more in terms of the psychology of food recall. Taubes narrative seems to be that overweight people eat as few calories as they claim.
Seems odd for Taubes to write multiple books on a subject he's unsure about.
I really don't see how their positions would be that similar.
Taubes is fairly certain the insulin weight model is correct but I have heard him discuss that no one knows how much of a factor it can play in weight and health management... how correct it is. He admits there are other factors at play when people gain weight than just the carbs they eat.
I know his model applies for me but it isnt everything to how I control weight.
I suppose I take it you mean earlier by he isn't certain is correct, you mean he's actually uncertain of how significant it is, how explanatory it is in any more complete model of weight?
The diagram version above really can't be correct. People undergoing high insulin and insulin resistance don't have their metabolism lowered - it goes up.
Guyenet already has a pretty good blog post about why insulin can't be particularly pivotal in hunger regulation - the way weight loss increases insulin sensitivity mhhhosing weight would be a positive feedback cycle: lose weight, sensivity goes up, hunger is less, loss more weight, sensitivity goes up more, hunger down less, loss more...
What I meant by the bolded is that Taubes is fairly certain that the insulin model plays a role in weight management but he is unsure of how large a role, nor whether it applies to all. He has said he knows it is not a complete model but is fairly certain insulin has an impact.
How does metabolism go up if you have high insulin? I have never heard that stated before.
As to hunger, leptin is impaired by high levels of insulin, and it is thought that is a factor in appetite. Another factor is swinging BG and energy levels. That mid afternoon fatigue or headache is the body's way of pushing for more food because BG levels are falling (because insulin was high and perhaps did its job too well).
Guyenet's model does not address hyperinsulinemia in normal weight individuals? Or how insulin and BG is corrected by a low carb diet before weight loss? I've not read that blog I guess. I don't quite get your meaning.4 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »
I'm not sure what the two bolded is taken to mean together. I can take it as the aphorism that "All models are false, just some are useful", which is a true enough explanation of all science.magnusthenerd wrote: »Like Virta or PURE?
I think it will be a non debate. Taubes has said that he doesn't know how much his ideas are correct. Both men overlap a lot in their thinking.
I think it may come down to picking apart epidemiological studies.
No, more in terms of the psychology of food recall. Taubes narrative seems to be that overweight people eat as few calories as they claim.
Seems odd for Taubes to write multiple books on a subject he's unsure about.
I really don't see how their positions would be that similar.
Taubes is fairly certain the insulin weight model is correct but I have heard him discuss that no one knows how much of a factor it can play in weight and health management... how correct it is. He admits there are other factors at play when people gain weight than just the carbs they eat.
I know his model applies for me but it isnt everything to how I control weight.
I suppose I take it you mean earlier by he isn't certain is correct, you mean he's actually uncertain of how significant it is, how explanatory it is in any more complete model of weight?
The diagram version above really can't be correct. People undergoing high insulin and insulin resistance don't have their metabolism lowered - it goes up.
Guyenet already has a pretty good blog post about why insulin can't be particularly pivotal in hunger regulation - the way weight loss increases insulin sensitivity mhhhosing weight would be a positive feedback cycle: lose weight, sensivity goes up, hunger is less, loss more weight, sensitivity goes up more, hunger down less, loss more...
What I meant by the bolded is that Taubes is fairly certain that the insulin model plays a role in weight management but he is unsure of how large a role, nor whether it applies to all. He has said he knows it is not a complete model but is fairly certain insulin has an impact.
How does metabolism go up if you have high insulin? I have never heard that stated before.
As to hunger, leptin is impaired by high levels of insulin, and it is thought that is a factor in appetite. Another factor is swinging BG and energy levels. That mid afternoon fatigue or headache is the body's way of pushing for more food because BG levels are falling (because insulin was high and perhaps did its job too well).
Guyenet's model does not address hyperinsulinemia in normal weight individuals? Or how insulin and BG is corrected by a low carb diet before weight loss? I've not read that blog I guess. I don't quite get your meaning.
I think Taubes's conception plays no role because it is just wrong. I've seen no evidence of a reduced metabolic rate in the overweight / obese, and particularly not one associated with carbohydrate and sugar intake.
Insulin resistance is associated with a higher metabolic rate - it is potentially one of the mechanisms by which clenbuterol raises metabolism. Insulin resistance seems to be a mechanism for the body to reduce fat, including by keeping it mobilized.
I've heard of leptin being impaired by insulin. Is it leptin production being impaired, leptin receptors, or both? Certainly in obesity there is a tendency towards insulin resistance and leptin resistance, but correlation isn't causation.
Guyenet's model is different than his post about insulin not making sense as a primary hunger regulator. I'm not sure what you think Guyenet's model would need to explain about hyperinsulinemia in normal weight individuals, as his model explains weight gain. Nor do I see why it would need to explain insulin and blood glucose levels. Actually, I don't get why blood glucose levels lowering needs much explanation in diets that involve eliminating foods that ultimately get turned into glucose. And I'm not sure what is meant by insulin is corrected by a low carb diet before weight loss. I don't think I've heard of anyone's glucose challenge results improve on a low carb diet without weight loss being involved.8 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »
I'm not sure what the two bolded is taken to mean together. I can take it as the aphorism that "All models are false, just some are useful", which is a true enough explanation of all science.magnusthenerd wrote: »Like Virta or PURE?
I think it will be a non debate. Taubes has said that he doesn't know how much his ideas are correct. Both men overlap a lot in their thinking.
I think it may come down to picking apart epidemiological studies.
No, more in terms of the psychology of food recall. Taubes narrative seems to be that overweight people eat as few calories as they claim.
Seems odd for Taubes to write multiple books on a subject he's unsure about.
I really don't see how their positions would be that similar.
Taubes is fairly certain the insulin weight model is correct but I have heard him discuss that no one knows how much of a factor it can play in weight and health management... how correct it is. He admits there are other factors at play when people gain weight than just the carbs they eat.
I know his model applies for me but it isnt everything to how I control weight.
I suppose I take it you mean earlier by he isn't certain is correct, you mean he's actually uncertain of how significant it is, how explanatory it is in any more complete model of weight?
The diagram version above really can't be correct. People undergoing high insulin and insulin resistance don't have their metabolism lowered - it goes up.
Guyenet already has a pretty good blog post about why insulin can't be particularly pivotal in hunger regulation - the way weight loss increases insulin sensitivity mhhhosing weight would be a positive feedback cycle: lose weight, sensivity goes up, hunger is less, loss more weight, sensitivity goes up more, hunger down less, loss more...
What I meant by the bolded is that Taubes is fairly certain that the insulin model plays a role in weight management but he is unsure of how large a role, nor whether it applies to all. He has said he knows it is not a complete model but is fairly certain insulin has an impact.
How does metabolism go up if you have high insulin? I have never heard that stated before.
As to hunger, leptin is impaired by high levels of insulin, and it is thought that is a factor in appetite. Another factor is swinging BG and energy levels. That mid afternoon fatigue or headache is the body's way of pushing for more food because BG levels are falling (because insulin was high and perhaps did its job too well).
Guyenet's model does not address hyperinsulinemia in normal weight individuals? Or how insulin and BG is corrected by a low carb diet before weight loss? I've not read that blog I guess. I don't quite get your meaning.
I think Taubes's conception plays no role because it is just wrong. I've seen no evidence of a reduced metabolic rate in the overweight / obese, and particularly not one associated with carbohydrate and sugar intake.
I don't understand what you are talking about. Who said metabolism is reduced when over weight or eating carbs?magnusthenerd wrote: »Insulin resistance is associated with a higher metabolic rate - it is potentially one of the mechanisms by which clenbuterol raises metabolism. Insulin resistance seems to be a mechanism for the body to reduce fat, including by keeping it mobilized.
I have no idea what clenbuterol is. A quick google says vets use that steroid.magnusthenerd wrote: »I've heard of leptin being impaired by insulin. Is it leptin production being impaired, leptin receptors, or both? Certainly in obesity there is a tendency towards insulin resistance and leptin resistance, but correlation isn't causation.
There are studies that show CICO may influence weight. There are studies that show that insulin levels influence weight. You'll have to pick and choose which studies you find correct.
I think both are partially correct and neither is correct on their own.magnusthenerd wrote: »model is different than his post about insulin not making sense as a primary hunger regulator. I'm not sure what you think Guyenet's model would need to explain about hyperinsulinemia in normal weight individuals, as his model explains weight gain. Nor do I see why it would need to explain insulin and blood glucose levels. Actually, I don't get why blood glucose levels lowering needs much explanation in diets that involve eliminating foods that ultimately get turned into glucose. And I'm not sure what is meant by insulin is corrected by a low carb diet before weight loss. I don't think I've heard of anyone's glucose challenge results improve on a low carb diet without weight loss being involved.
I don't think Guyenet explains his model well at all. I find it slightly offensive that he says weight is controlled by the brain. My n=1 of weight gain and loss around pregnancies, steroids, and after sudden insulinemia do not support that. Nor does my easy weight loss and reduced appetite (he says appetite goes up as you lose and energy expenditure goes down) when all I do is drop carbs.
Taubes' book Good Calories Bad Calories was revelatory to me. His latest book, and his assertions that it is all sugar makes about as much sense as Guyenet's book did - it's not a complete picture. It's not all sugar. People get fat without sugar. If he'd focused on sugar AND refined and highly processed carbs, I might agree with him. I doubt there are many fat people out there who ballooned up on a diet of meat, eggs, veggies and low GI plants.
I've watched some of the debate. Guyenet is a self righteous little *kitten* and Taubes is know it all, and I think Neither is right. I think they'd do better if they combined their theories, because both are just theories, than they do nitpicking each other. Not sure if I'll watch more. It's over two hours. Yuck.9 -
Dr Evan Allen live-tweeted the debate.
One bit:
4
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