Need to Decide when to Start Reverse Dieting
Spadesheart
Posts: 479 Member
So, I had a crazy water weight swing over last 2.5 weeks. 212 to 201. My goal weight upon I wish to build my body and get as lean as possible is 190. I am 6' 2.5".
I lose about 2 pounds a week, and I still have a lot of body fat so I am comfortable maintaining this pace. I have been losing steadily since mid December, almost 55 pounds. I have worked out on the way down, have gotten dramatically stronger and have built some muscle along the way with proper macros and nutrition. Not a crazy amount of muscle, but enough to be noticeable. My body doesn't look the way I want it to, obviously, but I don't imagine it will start looking so until near the end of this year.
Coming this close now, I have a few decisions to make over the next few weeks. When should I start reverse dieting is one. My maintainence calorie consumption at goal will be 2300. I currently consume less than 1600. Assuming what I read was correct, and reverse dieting should be done at 150 calories per week, this means that the process, not including extra calories to account for exercise, should take 5 weeks. I currently do 4 sessions of weight training, 1-2 days of high resistance cardio, and daily planks.
Now, I know my water weight will fluctuate, however from a CICO perspective, I will at least still have a 5-8 pound deficit over those 5 weeks. So, I need to decide at what point I start reverse dieting. Do I go straight to goal and then start, to account for water weight gain? Do I start at 195 so I'm somewhere in-between? How crazy should I expect water weight fluctuations to be?
After the refeed is over, I plan on hitting the gym hard for 2-3 months. 2-a-Days, 200 grams of protein, creatine, citrulline, the whole (natural) nine. I'm going to try to pack on as much muscle as I can in that period. I'm surprised I'm this close, honestly. After that it will be a more normal 4-5 sessions a week.
Thanks for any help, suggestions and opinions!
I lose about 2 pounds a week, and I still have a lot of body fat so I am comfortable maintaining this pace. I have been losing steadily since mid December, almost 55 pounds. I have worked out on the way down, have gotten dramatically stronger and have built some muscle along the way with proper macros and nutrition. Not a crazy amount of muscle, but enough to be noticeable. My body doesn't look the way I want it to, obviously, but I don't imagine it will start looking so until near the end of this year.
Coming this close now, I have a few decisions to make over the next few weeks. When should I start reverse dieting is one. My maintainence calorie consumption at goal will be 2300. I currently consume less than 1600. Assuming what I read was correct, and reverse dieting should be done at 150 calories per week, this means that the process, not including extra calories to account for exercise, should take 5 weeks. I currently do 4 sessions of weight training, 1-2 days of high resistance cardio, and daily planks.
Now, I know my water weight will fluctuate, however from a CICO perspective, I will at least still have a 5-8 pound deficit over those 5 weeks. So, I need to decide at what point I start reverse dieting. Do I go straight to goal and then start, to account for water weight gain? Do I start at 195 so I'm somewhere in-between? How crazy should I expect water weight fluctuations to be?
After the refeed is over, I plan on hitting the gym hard for 2-3 months. 2-a-Days, 200 grams of protein, creatine, citrulline, the whole (natural) nine. I'm going to try to pack on as much muscle as I can in that period. I'm surprised I'm this close, honestly. After that it will be a more normal 4-5 sessions a week.
Thanks for any help, suggestions and opinions!
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Replies
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Why two a days? You can’t speed muscle growth by training longer and harder. There are limitations.
The answer the main question seems simple. Once done cutting you slowly add calories back till you hit maintenance. Doesn’t need to be more complicated . Done cutting , to me, is at goal weight. Your majoring in the minors with everything else your trying to account for unless your competing5 -
Are you talking about lowering your deficit? If so that is up to you as you get closer to goal. Some people find it easier to transition. In terms of actually reverse dieting that you can do when you hit goal to get back up to your maintenance (adding back calories slowly until your weight stabilizes).
I also agree with the above. Muscle growth is SLOW .. overdoing it in the gym is not the way to go about it. Slow and steady is the most optimal way. Bulking for at least 6 months, following a good hypertrophy program and keeping your surplus not too high.5 -
Are you talking about lowering your deficit? If so that is up to you as you get closer to goal. Some people find it easier to transition. In terms of actually reverse dieting that you can do when you hit goal to get back up to your maintenance (adding back calories slowly until your weight stabilizes).
I also agree with the above. Muscle growth is SLOW .. overdoing it in the gym is not the way to go about it. Slow and steady is the most optimal way. Bulking for at least 6 months, following a good hypertrophy program and keeping your surplus not too high.
So this is why it's a question. Reverse dieting adds 150 calories a week to account for metabolic changes from the calorie deficit. For me, this is 5 weeks before I'm back to goal weight maintenance. I'd still, theoretically, lose 5-8 pounds of fat if CICO rules continue to apply, which is why I was wondering if I should start earlier, or if water weight would outweigh it (ha) anyways.
Also I just want to get a lot of volume, which research does show helps a lot if you can juggle it. I have the time now, I won't forever.1 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Are you talking about lowering your deficit? If so that is up to you as you get closer to goal. Some people find it easier to transition. In terms of actually reverse dieting that you can do when you hit goal to get back up to your maintenance (adding back calories slowly until your weight stabilizes).
I also agree with the above. Muscle growth is SLOW .. overdoing it in the gym is not the way to go about it. Slow and steady is the most optimal way. Bulking for at least 6 months, following a good hypertrophy program and keeping your surplus not too high.
So this is why it's a question. Reverse dieting adds 150 calories a week to account for metabolic changes from the calorie deficit. For me, this is 5 weeks before I'm back to goal weight maintenance. I'd still, theoretically, lose 5-8 pounds of fat if CICO rules continue to apply, which is why I was wondering if I should start earlier, or if water weight would outweigh it (ha) anyways.
Also I just want to get a lot of volume, which research does show helps a lot if you can juggle it. I have the time now, I won't forever.
I see what you are saying. I never had an issue reverse dieting maybe because I add calories a little faster and my deficit is smaller. Honestly I would not worry about it that much, you can do it however you want that works for you. Don't overcomplicate it. I would recommend you track your trend weight and water weight shouldn't matter too much especially if you go slow. Also right now you are using a calculated estimated maintenance, for many this can be over or under your true maintenance. Just something to keep in mind.
The right amount of volume and recovery will be key. Just make sure you aren't overdoing it.2 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Are you talking about lowering your deficit? If so that is up to you as you get closer to goal. Some people find it easier to transition. In terms of actually reverse dieting that you can do when you hit goal to get back up to your maintenance (adding back calories slowly until your weight stabilizes).
I also agree with the above. Muscle growth is SLOW .. overdoing it in the gym is not the way to go about it. Slow and steady is the most optimal way. Bulking for at least 6 months, following a good hypertrophy program and keeping your surplus not too high.
So this is why it's a question. Reverse dieting adds 150 calories a week to account for metabolic changes from the calorie deficit. For me, this is 5 weeks before I'm back to goal weight maintenance. I'd still, theoretically, lose 5-8 pounds of fat if CICO rules continue to apply, which is why I was wondering if I should start earlier, or if water weight would outweigh it (ha) anyways.
Also I just want to get a lot of volume, which research does show helps a lot if you can juggle it. I have the time now, I won't forever.
I see what you are saying. I never had an issue reverse dieting maybe because I add calories a little faster and my deficit is smaller. Honestly I would not worry about it that much, you can do it however you want that works for you. Don't overcomplicate it. I would recommend you track your trend weight and water weight shouldn't matter too much especially if you go slow. Also right now you are using a calculated estimated maintenance, for many this can be over or under your true maintenance. Just something to keep in mind.
The right amount of volume and recovery will be key. Just make sure you aren't overdoing it.
Honestly I don't even know how I'm going to continue after. I haven't eaten back exercise calories since the beginning. I'm assuming I'll have to increase my consumption a few hundred more, especially if I keep the cardio, you've seen the pictures. So the reverse dieting may very well be 6-7 weeks, I have no way to actually tell how my body would react.1 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Are you talking about lowering your deficit? If so that is up to you as you get closer to goal. Some people find it easier to transition. In terms of actually reverse dieting that you can do when you hit goal to get back up to your maintenance (adding back calories slowly until your weight stabilizes).
I also agree with the above. Muscle growth is SLOW .. overdoing it in the gym is not the way to go about it. Slow and steady is the most optimal way. Bulking for at least 6 months, following a good hypertrophy program and keeping your surplus not too high.
So this is why it's a question. Reverse dieting adds 150 calories a week to account for metabolic changes from the calorie deficit. For me, this is 5 weeks before I'm back to goal weight maintenance. I'd still, theoretically, lose 5-8 pounds of fat if CICO rules continue to apply, which is why I was wondering if I should start earlier, or if water weight would outweigh it (ha) anyways.
Also I just want to get a lot of volume, which research does show helps a lot if you can juggle it. I have the time now, I won't forever.
I see what you are saying. I never had an issue reverse dieting maybe because I add calories a little faster and my deficit is smaller. Honestly I would not worry about it that much, you can do it however you want that works for you. Don't overcomplicate it. I would recommend you track your trend weight and water weight shouldn't matter too much especially if you go slow. Also right now you are using a calculated estimated maintenance, for many this can be over or under your true maintenance. Just something to keep in mind.
The right amount of volume and recovery will be key. Just make sure you aren't overdoing it.
Honestly I don't even know how I'm going to continue after. I haven't eaten back exercise calories since the beginning. I'm assuming I'll have to increase my consumption a few hundred more, especially if I keep the cardio, you've seen the pictures. So the reverse dieting may very well be 6-7 weeks, I have no way to actually tell how my body would react.
I think you may be forgetting an import piece of the puzzle. As you get near goal you won’t be losing 2 pounds a week anymore. You’ll be losing a pound per month. Maybe less. Your TDEE will drop as your weight drops. You’ll be hungrier , it will be significantly harder to be in a sizable deficit. You may even increase your calories because you can’t sustain it to drop the last ten. This pace your on will slow dramatically. Once you are very near goal your deficit will be only 250-300 calories and possibly even less. It won’t take but a couple weeks to reverse into maintenance.
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Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Are you talking about lowering your deficit? If so that is up to you as you get closer to goal. Some people find it easier to transition. In terms of actually reverse dieting that you can do when you hit goal to get back up to your maintenance (adding back calories slowly until your weight stabilizes).
I also agree with the above. Muscle growth is SLOW .. overdoing it in the gym is not the way to go about it. Slow and steady is the most optimal way. Bulking for at least 6 months, following a good hypertrophy program and keeping your surplus not too high.
So this is why it's a question. Reverse dieting adds 150 calories a week to account for metabolic changes from the calorie deficit. For me, this is 5 weeks before I'm back to goal weight maintenance. I'd still, theoretically, lose 5-8 pounds of fat if CICO rules continue to apply, which is why I was wondering if I should start earlier, or if water weight would outweigh it (ha) anyways.
Also I just want to get a lot of volume, which research does show helps a lot if you can juggle it. I have the time now, I won't forever.
I see what you are saying. I never had an issue reverse dieting maybe because I add calories a little faster and my deficit is smaller. Honestly I would not worry about it that much, you can do it however you want that works for you. Don't overcomplicate it. I would recommend you track your trend weight and water weight shouldn't matter too much especially if you go slow. Also right now you are using a calculated estimated maintenance, for many this can be over or under your true maintenance. Just something to keep in mind.
The right amount of volume and recovery will be key. Just make sure you aren't overdoing it.
Honestly I don't even know how I'm going to continue after. I haven't eaten back exercise calories since the beginning. I'm assuming I'll have to increase my consumption a few hundred more, especially if I keep the cardio, you've seen the pictures. So the reverse dieting may very well be 6-7 weeks, I have no way to actually tell how my body would react.
I think you may be forgetting an import piece of the puzzle. As you get near goal you won’t be losing 2 pounds a week anymore. You’ll be losing a pound per month. Maybe less. Your TDEE will drop as your weight drops. You’ll be hungrier , it will be significantly harder to be in a sizable deficit. You may even increase your calories because you can’t sustain it to drop the last ten. This pace your on will slow dramatically. Once you are very near goal your deficit will be only 250-300 calories and possibly even less. It won’t take but a couple weeks to reverse into maintenance.
I'm still at like a 1000 calorie deficit. I'll be at 190 in like 1.5 months. Hunger is not an issue.
Reverse dieting is meant to reduce any metabolic changes as you go back into maintainence, but realistically, I'd still lose 5-8 pounds of fat while doing so, as over the 5 weeks the deficit only decreases but 150 a week. This is why I need to find the right time to start the process to maintain 190.2 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Are you talking about lowering your deficit? If so that is up to you as you get closer to goal. Some people find it easier to transition. In terms of actually reverse dieting that you can do when you hit goal to get back up to your maintenance (adding back calories slowly until your weight stabilizes).
I also agree with the above. Muscle growth is SLOW .. overdoing it in the gym is not the way to go about it. Slow and steady is the most optimal way. Bulking for at least 6 months, following a good hypertrophy program and keeping your surplus not too high.
So this is why it's a question. Reverse dieting adds 150 calories a week to account for metabolic changes from the calorie deficit. For me, this is 5 weeks before I'm back to goal weight maintenance. I'd still, theoretically, lose 5-8 pounds of fat if CICO rules continue to apply, which is why I was wondering if I should start earlier, or if water weight would outweigh it (ha) anyways.
Also I just want to get a lot of volume, which research does show helps a lot if you can juggle it. I have the time now, I won't forever.
I see what you are saying. I never had an issue reverse dieting maybe because I add calories a little faster and my deficit is smaller. Honestly I would not worry about it that much, you can do it however you want that works for you. Don't overcomplicate it. I would recommend you track your trend weight and water weight shouldn't matter too much especially if you go slow. Also right now you are using a calculated estimated maintenance, for many this can be over or under your true maintenance. Just something to keep in mind.
The right amount of volume and recovery will be key. Just make sure you aren't overdoing it.
Honestly I don't even know how I'm going to continue after. I haven't eaten back exercise calories since the beginning. I'm assuming I'll have to increase my consumption a few hundred more, especially if I keep the cardio, you've seen the pictures. So the reverse dieting may very well be 6-7 weeks, I have no way to actually tell how my body would react.
I think you may be forgetting an import piece of the puzzle. As you get near goal you won’t be losing 2 pounds a week anymore. You’ll be losing a pound per month. Maybe less. Your TDEE will drop as your weight drops. You’ll be hungrier , it will be significantly harder to be in a sizable deficit. You may even increase your calories because you can’t sustain it to drop the last ten. This pace your on will slow dramatically. Once you are very near goal your deficit will be only 250-300 calories and possibly even less. It won’t take but a couple weeks to reverse into maintenance.
I'm still at like a 1000 calorie deficit. I'll be at 190 in like 1.5 months.
That’s fine now. You will not be able to sustain it near goal. Probably not even after next 10-15. I’ve been where you are now , where you started and at goal. If you push thru the misery your going to have some health issues and muscle loss4 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Are you talking about lowering your deficit? If so that is up to you as you get closer to goal. Some people find it easier to transition. In terms of actually reverse dieting that you can do when you hit goal to get back up to your maintenance (adding back calories slowly until your weight stabilizes).
I also agree with the above. Muscle growth is SLOW .. overdoing it in the gym is not the way to go about it. Slow and steady is the most optimal way. Bulking for at least 6 months, following a good hypertrophy program and keeping your surplus not too high.
So this is why it's a question. Reverse dieting adds 150 calories a week to account for metabolic changes from the calorie deficit. For me, this is 5 weeks before I'm back to goal weight maintenance. I'd still, theoretically, lose 5-8 pounds of fat if CICO rules continue to apply, which is why I was wondering if I should start earlier, or if water weight would outweigh it (ha) anyways.
Also I just want to get a lot of volume, which research does show helps a lot if you can juggle it. I have the time now, I won't forever.
I see what you are saying. I never had an issue reverse dieting maybe because I add calories a little faster and my deficit is smaller. Honestly I would not worry about it that much, you can do it however you want that works for you. Don't overcomplicate it. I would recommend you track your trend weight and water weight shouldn't matter too much especially if you go slow. Also right now you are using a calculated estimated maintenance, for many this can be over or under your true maintenance. Just something to keep in mind.
The right amount of volume and recovery will be key. Just make sure you aren't overdoing it.
Honestly I don't even know how I'm going to continue after. I haven't eaten back exercise calories since the beginning. I'm assuming I'll have to increase my consumption a few hundred more, especially if I keep the cardio, you've seen the pictures. So the reverse dieting may very well be 6-7 weeks, I have no way to actually tell how my body would react.
I think you may be forgetting an import piece of the puzzle. As you get near goal you won’t be losing 2 pounds a week anymore. You’ll be losing a pound per month. Maybe less. Your TDEE will drop as your weight drops. You’ll be hungrier , it will be significantly harder to be in a sizable deficit. You may even increase your calories because you can’t sustain it to drop the last ten. This pace your on will slow dramatically. Once you are very near goal your deficit will be only 250-300 calories and possibly even less. It won’t take but a couple weeks to reverse into maintenance.
I'm still at like a 1000 calorie deficit. I'll be at 190 in like 1.5 months.
That’s fine now. You will not be able to sustain it near goal. Probably not even after next 20-25. I guarantee it. I’ve been where you are now , where you started and at goal. If you push thru the misery your going to have some health issues and muscle loss
...but the goal is 190. Everything from there is recomp. There is no desire to lose more weight, just lose fat and build muscle.1 -
You’ll see that the math doesn’t work out in reality. You won’t lose 5-8 pounds during reverse dieting. The pace absolutely doesn’t continue. You have made up your mind tho that this is how it works so I’ll check back once you experience it2
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You’ll see that the math doesn’t work out in reality. You won’t lose 5-8 pounds during reverse dieting. The pace absolutely doesn’t continue. You have made up your mind tho that this is how it works so I’ll check back once you experience it
So that's my question. I'm assuming it doesn't work out in reality because of water retention. from a CICO perspective, I'd still be in deficit for 5 weeks, so fat would be decreasing even then.1 -
4
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Keto_Vampire wrote: »
Im a nerd, and to be fair, it has worked splendidly so far. Coupled with rigourous effort of course.
Also what kind of hippydippy bullshrimp is this hat nonsense haha3 -
You are likely losing a bit too quickly at this point. If you are within 20lb within goal start playing with increasing your calories a bit now. You do not HAVE to taper back up at 150 calories per week. you can go much slower than that to allow yourself to get used to each stage. Give yourself 200 calories back TODAY. Stay there for two weeks. give yourself another 200 calories back and stay there for another two weeks. You are still likely to be losing over 1 lb a week. If you are easily gaining now at this aggressive deficit, think how much better your performance will be at a slightly lower deficit.
Since you are prone to overthink and a bit and analytical, try keeping a spreadsheet that tracks your daily calories weight and estimated calories burned from working out. Use that to estimate your weekly NEAT so you can accurately track what your maintenance calories should be. They are likely to go down as you get closer to goal weight, which is what was commented on above. That math should help you atrget where you want to be to start recomp.
My suggestion again is to start "reverse dieting" now but do it slower than 150 calories every week. 200 every 2-3 weeks is a good place to start.1 -
Spadesheart wrote: »You’ll see that the math doesn’t work out in reality. You won’t lose 5-8 pounds during reverse dieting. The pace absolutely doesn’t continue. You have made up your mind tho that this is how it works so I’ll check back once you experience it
So that's my question. I'm assuming it doesn't work out in reality because of water retention. from a CICO perspective, I'd still be in deficit for 5 weeks, so fat would be decreasing even then.
The thing is, it is really atypical for someone to barrel into their goal weight at the speed you are intending to go, and (as you know at this point
) IMHO it is even rarer to find someone who did that and then actually maintained that loss. The veterans you are going to find here are almost universally going to tell you they made the decision (whether by choice or lack of ability to go any other way) to finish up at a pace of barely 0.5lbs per week. So none of us can tell you how to make what you're doing work.
The typical advice would be to slow your rate of loss down now, and then reverse dieting or just flat out increasing to maintenance calories is no big deal. I would suspect that if you continue at this pace, yes, you will continue to lose past your goal weight and you are going to be dealing with lots of water weight swings, hormone fluctuations, and appetite weirdness for several months afterward. How to mitigate that or strategize for that, I have no idea, that's why we caution against it in the first place
As others have mentioned, I guess keeping a spreadsheet of some kind and understanding it may take a few months for your hormones to regulate (which will affect appetite, energy levels, and water weight at least) will help. It might be difficult to suss out your true maintenance calories during that time. 4 -
Spadesheart wrote: »You’ll see that the math doesn’t work out in reality. You won’t lose 5-8 pounds during reverse dieting. The pace absolutely doesn’t continue. You have made up your mind tho that this is how it works so I’ll check back once you experience it
So that's my question. I'm assuming it doesn't work out in reality because of water retention. from a CICO perspective, I'd still be in deficit for 5 weeks, so fat would be decreasing even then.
The thing is, it is really atypical for someone to barrel into their goal weight at the speed you are intending to go, and (as you know at this point ) IMHO it is even rarer to find someone who did that and then actually maintained that loss. The veterans you are going to find here are almost universally going to tell you they made the decision (whether by choice or lack of ability to go any other way) to finish up at a pace of barely 0.5lbs per week. So none of us can tell you how to make what you're doing work.
The typical advice would be to slow your rate of loss down now, and then reverse dieting or just flat out increasing to maintenance calories is no big deal. I would suspect that if you continue at this pace, yes, you will continue to lose past your goal weight and you are going to be dealing with lots of water weight swings, hormone fluctuations, and appetite weirdness for several months afterward. How to mitigate that or strategize for that, I have no idea, that's why we caution against it in the first place As others have mentioned, I guess keeping a spreadsheet of some kind and understanding it may take a few months for your hormones to regulate (which will affect appetite, energy levels, and water weight at least) will help. It might be difficult to suss out your true maintenance calories during that time.
The higher level dietary strategy right now for goal weight is extra peanut butter and meat, not in combination... Unless I'm making peanut sauce I guess haha
The only reason this has been working I think is because I had a lot of fat on me to begin with. Here's hoping those hormonal changes are conducive to lifting haha.
I'm leaning towards what sibbw said, maybe starting at 197, or starting at 195.
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