Discovery of performance-enhancing bacteria in the human microbiome
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pierinifitness
Posts: 2,231 Member
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"Scheiman and Church are co-founders of FitBiomics, Inc., a microbiome biotechnology company targeted at athletes. Scheiman, Church and Kostic hold equity in Fitbiomics, Inc."
Color me shocked that the founders of a company that creates microbiome supplements for athletes just happened to find that there is a super awesome microbiome that will make you a super awesome athlete. No doubt it will show up in a supplement they are selling in the near future.38 -
You're not being fair, @MikePTY. Microbiome is a big word, so it must be true.13
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Good catch @MikePTY
I posted this elsewhere regarding the microbiome, and would be very cautious about any claims of enhancement.
https://time.com/5360407/microbiome-diet-gut-health/But when it comes to strengthening or restoring the microbiome in ways that promote optimal health in humans, Czaja says there are promising theories but no hard-and-fast answers yet. “Our understanding of mechanisms regulating the gut-microbiome-brain axis is negligible,” he says. “We are not even sure about the number of microbes in the human body.”Figuring out which foods or probiotics could help reshape or harmonize the microbiome for improved health is like baking a perfect cake using 5,000 different ingredients, he says. The idea that eating this fruit or popping that supplement will do the trick is a woeful oversimplification of the microbiome’s complex role in human health.
Others agree. “We’re still learning what is a ‘healthy’ microbiome,” says Dr. Vincent Young, a professor in the department of microbiology and immunology at the University of Michigan Medical School. “There’s tremendous promise, and the research is being done, but right now, we don’t know what’s deranged or lacking, or how to fix it.”The medical science community is only “scratching the surface” when it comes to understanding the microbiome’s role in human health, McDonald says, and experts who study it still can’t even say what a healthy or unhealthy microbiome looks like. “A lot of the technology we’re applying now is of relatively low precision,” he says. “We are not even in a position to say that one person’s microbiome is more or less healthy than another’s.”9 -
In fact I would have flagged this as "Spam" if the OP wouldn't have such a large number of postings8
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Good catch @MikePTY
I posted this elsewhere regarding the microbiome, and would be very cautious about any claims of enhancement.
https://time.com/5360407/microbiome-diet-gut-health/But when it comes to strengthening or restoring the microbiome in ways that promote optimal health in humans, Czaja says there are promising theories but no hard-and-fast answers yet. “Our understanding of mechanisms regulating the gut-microbiome-brain axis is negligible,” he says. “We are not even sure about the number of microbes in the human body.”Figuring out which foods or probiotics could help reshape or harmonize the microbiome for improved health is like baking a perfect cake using 5,000 different ingredients, he says. The idea that eating this fruit or popping that supplement will do the trick is a woeful oversimplification of the microbiome’s complex role in human health.
Others agree. “We’re still learning what is a ‘healthy’ microbiome,” says Dr. Vincent Young, a professor in the department of microbiology and immunology at the University of Michigan Medical School. “There’s tremendous promise, and the research is being done, but right now, we don’t know what’s deranged or lacking, or how to fix it.”The medical science community is only “scratching the surface” when it comes to understanding the microbiome’s role in human health, McDonald says, and experts who study it still can’t even say what a healthy or unhealthy microbiome looks like. “A lot of the technology we’re applying now is of relatively low precision,” he says. “We are not even in a position to say that one person’s microbiome is more or less healthy than another’s.”
This is a good way to qualify any stories about the gut microbiome. I think study of it is certainly interesting and worthwhile from a scientific and medical standpoint, and I am sure that the bacteria in our gut has some sort of effect on something, but we really have no idea what that is or even how to begin to quantify what that is.
The thing is that studies on gut bacteria (which is what this is, microbiome just sounds more "sciencey") have been way over-exaggerated as being the cause of everything from obesity to health to fitness, etc. To the extent that certain bacteria are found in people who are skinny or fit or whichever, it is more likely that their being fit or athletic causes this gut bacteria to be present, not the other way around.
I didn't get obese from the bacteria in my gut. I got obese from eating too much and not moving a lot. I didn't then get skinny(ish) and fit(ish) from my gut. I got it from controlling what I eat and exercising. It seems weird that people get so hung up on things like the microbiome which may at most make some sort of 0.1% difference in our athleticism and weight loss and not focusing on the 99.9%, which is diet and exercise. We already have the answers to how to do these things.11 -
Good catch @MikePTY
I posted this elsewhere regarding the microbiome, and would be very cautious about any claims of enhancement.
https://time.com/5360407/microbiome-diet-gut-health/But when it comes to strengthening or restoring the microbiome in ways that promote optimal health in humans, Czaja says there are promising theories but no hard-and-fast answers yet. “Our understanding of mechanisms regulating the gut-microbiome-brain axis is negligible,” he says. “We are not even sure about the number of microbes in the human body.”Figuring out which foods or probiotics could help reshape or harmonize the microbiome for improved health is like baking a perfect cake using 5,000 different ingredients, he says. The idea that eating this fruit or popping that supplement will do the trick is a woeful oversimplification of the microbiome’s complex role in human health.
Others agree. “We’re still learning what is a ‘healthy’ microbiome,” says Dr. Vincent Young, a professor in the department of microbiology and immunology at the University of Michigan Medical School. “There’s tremendous promise, and the research is being done, but right now, we don’t know what’s deranged or lacking, or how to fix it.”The medical science community is only “scratching the surface” when it comes to understanding the microbiome’s role in human health, McDonald says, and experts who study it still can’t even say what a healthy or unhealthy microbiome looks like. “A lot of the technology we’re applying now is of relatively low precision,” he says. “We are not even in a position to say that one person’s microbiome is more or less healthy than another’s.”
This is a good way to qualify any stories about the gut microbiome. I think study of it is certainly interesting and worthwhile from a scientific and medical standpoint, and I am sure that the bacteria in our gut has some sort of effect on something, but we really have no idea what that is or even how to begin to quantify what that is.
The thing is that studies on gut bacteria (which is what this is, microbiome just sounds more "sciencey") have been way over-exaggerated as being the cause of everything from obesity to health to fitness, etc. To the extent that certain bacteria are found in people who are skinny or fit or whichever, it is more likely that their being fit or athletic causes this gut bacteria to be present, not the other way around.
I didn't get obese from the bacteria in my gut. I got obese from eating too much and not moving a lot. I didn't then get skinny(ish) and fit(ish) from my gut. I got it from controlling what I eat and exercising. It seems weird that people get so hung up on things like the microbiome which may at most make some sort of 0.1% difference in our athleticism and weight loss and not focusing on the 99.9%, which is diet and exercise. We already have the answers to how to do these things.
It's just the latest science-y flavored variation on "My results are not an outcome of my behavior: It's all about things that are totally out of my control . . . so give me the magic effort-free solution!!".
Next up on the trend-o-meter of "not my fault": Quantum effects on metabolism.
Back on topic: I think there's enough evidence that it's a good thing to have a diverse (but non-pathological) population of gut bacteria, that fostering such a thing is a good bet-hedge for general health. For me, that means a diverse diet (including traditional probiotic and prebiotic foods, which is just a fancy way of saying things like raw sauerkraut and live-culture yogurt, plus lotsa nice fruit/veggies), and not over-antiseptic-izing one's immediate physical environs.
Beyond that, I think the science is pretty non-definitive at this point, but the research is really interesting, and may give us some useful insights in the next decade or so. I agree that we don't have a good handle yet on which way the causation arrows point: Whether "healthier" people have more helpful gut bacteria, or helpful gut bacteria are a trigger for better health . . . let alone which bacteria matter. The direction of causation could even be case-specific, who knows.16 -
I find that type of stuff interesting Pier. Here's a different article on it. But as this one points out, it's not clear if they have more of that bacteria since it feeds on Lactic Acid in the first place. How do you get huge amounts of lactic acid? By doing harder cardio sessions. So it seems like the body adapts to utilize that Lactic Acid and these bacteria help consume it (and make cardio less painful).
Certainly, as others have mentioned, not causal, but interesting how the body interacts with the bacteria within it.
https://www.livescience.com/65780-athletes-gut-bacteria-boost-performance.html4 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I find that type of stuff interesting Pier. Here's a different article on it. But as this one points out, it's not clear if they have more of that bacteria since it feeds on Lactic Acid in the first place. How do you get huge amounts of lactic acid? By doing harder cardio sessions. So it seems like the body adapts to utilize that Lactic Acid and these bacteria help consume it (and make cardio less painful).
Certainly, as others have mentioned, not causal, but interesting how the body interacts with the bacteria within it.
https://www.livescience.com/65780-athletes-gut-bacteria-boost-performance.html
The whole field of study is loaded with potential. It just isn't, as far as I'm aware, mapped and understood to the point it can be easily manipulated for physical gain.
That won't stop those entities with a bit less integrity from attempting to monetize it though...8 -
My apologies for not doing a better job of vetting what I posted above. It came from a link of a Twitter account of a person who posts quality content.
With regard to monetizing, aren't protein supplements the king of monetization?
I like to self-experiment to see what something offers me while being mindful of the limitations of an n=1 "science experiment." Having said that, I have no plans to test this performance-enhancing bacteria in my near future.2 -
You don't need to vet articles before posting them, especially when you're song for opinions on them!3
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pierinifitness wrote: »
@pierinifitness that is a very encouraging article based on breaking news about the connection between the gut microbiome and our health and fitness. Keep your eye trained these kinds of stories as they continue to develop. The way the research is shaping up most all human health and diseases may be related to one's own gut microbiome.
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pierinifitness wrote: »My apologies for not doing a better job of vetting what I posted above. It came from a link of a Twitter account of a person who posts quality content.
With regard to monetizing, aren't protein supplements the king of monetization?
I like to self-experiment to see what something offers me while being mindful of the limitations of an n=1 "science experiment." Having said that, I have no plans to test this performance-enhancing bacteria in my near future.
@pierinifitness I don't think it's as much a case of vetting as it is just making sure the scope of where we are actually at is represented as fully as able. The potential inherent in this field is massive, but so is the potential for misleading information.
Then again, I can't think of a single supplement that hasn't been monetized to death. Some just deliver some real benefits for our $$. Regarding this subject and others in the early stages of study I tend to err on the side of caution. Even the link MikePFirrman posted came with cautions.If the findings are reproduced with additional human studies, they could have implications for treating people involved with high-intensity physical activity, such as athletes or people in the military, Mayer said.
Still, Mayer said it's hard to predict whether a Veillonella probiotic could increase a person's capacity for exercise. It may be that some people develop higher levels of Veillonella in their guts early in life, and that these people are more likely to become athletes, he said.
In addition, it's unclear if a probiotic could increase levels of Veillonella in the gut of non-athletes; and even if possible, it could have unwanted side effects, he added. Still, "It is certainly an exciting possibility," Mayer said.
Not being a fan of unwanted side effects, I'm content to wait. It's still a fascinating field of study though.6 -
There's obviously something to the science of it, but it's slowly growing, mostly because there's been limited backing by Pharmaceutical companies. Nearly all of the research has been funded by universities, speculative investors/Angel Investors and VCs. Pharm has, until recently, sat on the sidelines watching. AstraZenica, though, just partnered with Seres Therapeutics. Seres is probably the furthest along science based start-up in the Microbiome therapeutics space. The fact that AstraZenica partnered with them drove their stock up 64% in one day. Seres has some pretty bright people associated with MIT involved. They've certainly had some setbacks along the way.
I keep a pretty close eye on this space as I work with science based start-ups. There are some wild *kitten* ideas out there. But sometimes, the wild ideas are just that, other times they are revolutionary. I worked (I'm dating myself) with the first wind energy companies to come to North America. Critics said that wind energy would never amount to anything (same about solar). Renewables have overtaken conventional power sources this past year. That's a whole different subject, but suffice it to say that the critics were wrong.3 -
No surprise on the bolded given AstraZenica's profile in the space.MikePfirrman wrote: »There's obviously something to the science of it, but it's slowly growing, mostly because there's been limited backing by Pharmaceutical companies. Nearly all of the research has been funded by universities, speculative investors/Angel Investors and VCs. Pharm has, until recently, sat on the sidelines watching. AstraZenica, though, just partnered with Seres Therapeutics. Seres is probably the furthest along science based start-up in the Microbiome therapeutics space. The fact that AstraZenica partnered with them drove their stock up 64% in one day. Seres has some pretty bright people associated with MIT involved. They've certainly had some setbacks along the way.
I keep a pretty close eye on this space as I work with science based start-ups. There are some wild *kitten* ideas out there. But sometimes, the wild ideas are just that, other times they are revolutionary. I worked (I'm dating myself) with the first wind energy companies to come to North America. Critics said that wind energy would never amount to anything (same about solar). Renewables have overtaken conventional power sources this past year. That's a whole different subject, but suffice it to say that the critics were wrong.
On that last paragraph though - I don't believe I've seen anyone here at all ever criticize the actual, available information or the news that this field of study has huge potential. What I have personally been critical of is manipulation of information to make this field appear more usable in the short term by individuals.
Again, even the source you posted earlier contained a cautionary note regarding getting too carried away. that's not being critical, that's being smart and cautious.
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Here's a great article not only on the potential, but also some of the ongoing challenges.
https://www.biopharmadive.com/news/spotlight-microbiome-deals-collaborations-manda/517459/
@Phirrgus - I agree with everything you're saying, but wildly optimistic and even unethical could be also said of some pharmaceutical drug introductions as well. Wildly overpromising and underdelivering.3 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Here's a great article not only on the potential, but also some of the ongoing challenges.
https://www.biopharmadive.com/news/spotlight-microbiome-deals-collaborations-manda/517459/
@Phirrgus - I agree with everything you're saying, but wildly optimistic and even unethical could be also said of some pharmaceutical drug introductions as well. Wildly overpromising and underdelivering.
Oh my goodness yes LOL. I hope I never alluded otherwise...
Edit: Thanks for the link, informative on the challenges.1 -
johnslater461 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »OK so much for thinking I was an aware person when it came to the gut microbiome interest.
I had never heard of Spectrum until now and what parents have been doing on their own in the the way of research for the past 20 years related to the gut microbiome science and some scientists are now trying to play catch up. All kids had worms where I grew up.
https://spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/supplements-worms-stool-families-trying-game-gut-treat-autism-traits/
I don't believe that for a second.
Hey John not sure where you come from but we had/have dogs and cats as pets. They did not live in the house but that is not required to pick up their parasites.
https://mypetandi.bayer.com/uk/worms-parasites/cat-dog-can-i-catch-worms-my-pet/
Below is from a regional medical college. It is 5 years old but may help you better understand why we die if we lose the trillions of non human life forms that lives in our gut. It seems that most diseases can stem from poor health of our gut microbiome.
https://depts.washington.edu/ceeh/downloads/FF_Microbiome.pdf
".....What does the microbiome have to do with health? mThe microbiome is essential for human development,
immunity and nutrition.
The bacteria living in and on us are not invaders but beneficial colonizers.
Autoimmune diseases such as diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, muscular dystrophy, multiple sclerosis, and
fibromyalgia are associated with dysfunction in the microbiome.
Disease-causing microbes accumulate over time, changing gene activity and metabolic processes and resulting in an abnormal immune response against substances and tissues normally present in the body.
Autoimmune diseases appear to be passed in families not by DNA inheritance but by inheriting the family’s
microbiome.
Some examples:
• The gut microbiome is different between obese and
lean twins. Obese twins have a lower diversity of
bacteria, and higher levels of enzymes, meaning the
obese twins are more efficient at digesting food and
harvesting calories. Obesity has also been associated
with a poor combination of microbes in the gut.
• Type I diabetes is an autoimmune disease associated
with a less diverse gut microbiome. In animal studies,
bacteria play a role in developing diabetes....."
John I bolded the part that indicates to me those giving advice to the obese that all they have to do is eat less and move more can be human cruelty towards some. Cravings may be coming from our gut microbiome where will power of the host is outnumbered trillions of times perhaps.
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snickerscharlie wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »OK so much for thinking I was an aware person when it came to the gut microbiome interest.
I had never heard of Spectrum until now and what parents have been doing on their own in the the way of research for the past 20 years related to the gut microbiome science and some scientists are now trying to play catch up. All kids had worms where I grew up.
https://spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/supplements-worms-stool-families-trying-game-gut-treat-autism-traits/
I don't believe that for a second.
I'm the same age as Gale, and I don't know of one kid that had worms. Mind you, it was not something that would be discussed amongst kids in normal daily conversation, but still. The only thing I recall was the occasional kid having head lice, but that's it.
Head lice and many other things can live on or inside of us it seems. Warning there are photos in the link!
https://emedicinehealth.com/creatures_skin_health_live_on_your_body/article_em.htm5 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »OK so much for thinking I was an aware person when it came to the gut microbiome interest.
I had never heard of Spectrum until now and what parents have been doing on their own in the the way of research for the past 20 years related to the gut microbiome science and some scientists are now trying to play catch up. All kids had worms where I grew up.
https://spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/supplements-worms-stool-families-trying-game-gut-treat-autism-traits/
I don't believe that for a second.
Hey John not sure where you come from but we had/have dogs and cats as pets. They did not live in the house but that is not required to pick up their parasites.
https://mypetandi.bayer.com/uk/worms-parasites/cat-dog-can-i-catch-worms-my-pet/
The fact that it's theoretically possible to catch worms from animals isn't remotely equivalent to your claim that "all kids had worms".
Unless you're also claiming that all kids eat dog poop.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »OK so much for thinking I was an aware person when it came to the gut microbiome interest.
I had never heard of Spectrum until now and what parents have been doing on their own in the the way of research for the past 20 years related to the gut microbiome science and some scientists are now trying to play catch up. All kids had worms where I grew up.
https://spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/supplements-worms-stool-families-trying-game-gut-treat-autism-traits/
I don't believe that for a second.
Hey John not sure where you come from but we had/have dogs and cats as pets. They did not live in the house but that is not required to pick up their parasites.
https://mypetandi.bayer.com/uk/worms-parasites/cat-dog-can-i-catch-worms-my-pet/
Below is from a regional medical college. It is 5 years old but may help you better understand why we die if we lose the trillions of non human life forms that lives in our gut. It seems that most diseases can stem from poor health of our gut microbiome.
https://depts.washington.edu/ceeh/downloads/FF_Microbiome.pdf
".....What does the microbiome have to do with health? mThe microbiome is essential for human development,
immunity and nutrition.
The bacteria living in and on us are not invaders but beneficial colonizers.
Autoimmune diseases such as diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, muscular dystrophy, multiple sclerosis, and
fibromyalgia are associated with dysfunction in the microbiome.
Disease-causing microbes accumulate over time, changing gene activity and metabolic processes and resulting in an abnormal immune response against substances and tissues normally present in the body.
Autoimmune diseases appear to be passed in families not by DNA inheritance but by inheriting the family’s
microbiome.
Some examples:
• The gut microbiome is different between obese and
lean twins. Obese twins have a lower diversity of
bacteria, and higher levels of enzymes, meaning the
obese twins are more efficient at digesting food and
harvesting calories. Obesity has also been associated
with a poor combination of microbes in the gut.
• Type I diabetes is an autoimmune disease associated
with a less diverse gut microbiome. In animal studies,
bacteria play a role in developing diabetes....."
John I bolded the part that indicates to me those giving advice to the obese that all they have to do is eat less and move more can be human cruelty towards some. Cravings may be coming from our gut microbiome where will power of the host is outnumbered trillions of times perhaps.
Even if there is a correlation between obesity and biome diversity, you haven't shown any indication of causation.
There may be lurking variables, or you may have the causal arrow reversed.
This is Logic 101 stuff.8
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