5x5 with partially torn RC?
Phirrgus
Posts: 1,894 Member
Hey folks,
I wanted to get back to a nice simple and effective program like 5x5. The RC tear is <40% and I have some reasonably decent alternatives for the OHP, but I was wondering if the dl and rows would be just as hard on it.
To answer the obvious point - surgery isn't happening this year>long story>boring details lol.
Any recommendations?
Thanks in advance, any advice is much appreciated.
I wanted to get back to a nice simple and effective program like 5x5. The RC tear is <40% and I have some reasonably decent alternatives for the OHP, but I was wondering if the dl and rows would be just as hard on it.
To answer the obvious point - surgery isn't happening this year>long story>boring details lol.
Any recommendations?
Thanks in advance, any advice is much appreciated.
0
Replies
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I've had 2 rotator cuff tears, both fixed surgically.
You probably can do DLs, SQTs and anything else that primarily works your core & lower body (as long as the use of your shoulder is only required for stability not lifting as it would be used in doing SQTs) but you cannot donBPs, OHPs, Rows or anything else that requires you to lift and put a strain on your shoulder w/o risk of worsening the injury.
Sorry but there is no substitute for OHPs or BPs that would not involve the structural use of your shoulder. So, if I were you, I would forget about doing 5x5 and focus on exercise for general fitness and only core and lower body routines until surgery can be performed to fix your shoulder, bearing in mind that full strength will not return to your shoulder until about a a yr after that
Been there, done that . . . TWICE.
Good luck!3 -
@sgt1372 Thanks for the tips. I was afraid I was going to get answers like that lol..I had a full tear surgically repaired a couple of years ago opposite shoulder, and been living with this tear for a long time now, but it's beginning to get worse.I've had 2 rotator cuff tears, both fixed surgically.
You probably can do DLs, SQTs and anything else that primarily works your core & lower body (as long as the use of your shoulder is only required for stability not lifting as it would be used in doing SQTs) but you cannot donBPs, OHPs, Rows or anything else that requires you to lift and put a strain on your shoulder w/o risk of worsening the injury.
Sorry but there is no substitute for OHPs or BPs that would not involve the structural use of your shoulder. So, if I were you, I would forget about doing 5x5 and focus on exercise for general fitness and only core and lower body routines until surgery can be performed to fix your shoulder, bearing in mind that full strength will not return to your shoulder until about a a yr after that
Been there, done that . . . TWICE.
Good luck!
Thanks for the reply
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If it's less than 40%, I'd try to work as well as you can on rehab yourself. I tore mine fairly bad the same year that my wife, unfortunately, came down with Fibromyalgia, which is incredibly expensive to diagnose.
After burning through cash for six months (treating my wife), I was desperate to help my shoulder and didn't want to pay for surgery. Mine was nearly frozen. I read about hanging therapy and, ever so gradually, worked my way up to hanging. Started with lat pull down with individual cables at the gym. I would put really light weights on it, hold the one handle with my good shoulder and let the small weight gently pull up on the torn/frozen one. Long story short, I rehabbed my own tear over around four months, working 3 X a week on it.
I realize if tears are larger, that's not possible, but with small tears, you can. I know several guys with very similar experiences to mine with hanging therapy. It does work but you have to do it very gradually.1 -
Thanks for that @MikePfirrman ! That gives me some more hope. I never heard about the hanging therapy, but I am absolutely going to look into it.MikePfirrman wrote: »If it's less than 40%, I'd try to work as well as you can on rehab yourself. I tore mine fairly bad the same year that my wife, unfortunately, came down with Fibromyalgia, which is incredibly expensive to diagnose.
After burning through cash for six months (treating my wife), I was desperate to help my shoulder and didn't want to pay for surgery. Mine was nearly frozen. I read about hanging therapy and, ever so gradually, worked my way up to hanging. Started with lat pull down with individual cables at the gym. I would put really light weights on it, hold the one handle with my good shoulder and let the small weight gently pull up on the torn/frozen one. Long story short, I rehabbed my own tear over around four months, working 3 X a week on it.
I realize if tears are larger, that's not possible, but with small tears, you can. I know several guys with very similar experiences to mine with hanging therapy. It does work but you have to do it very gradually.
If I know my doc (the surgeon) he will order an MRI to confirm it's still ~40% or so, and hopefully a cortisone shot...either way, thank you for the tip, and I'm glad things worked out for you
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Thanks for that @MikePfirrman ! That gives me some more hope. I never heard about the hanging therapy, but I am absolutely going to look into it.MikePfirrman wrote: »If it's less than 40%, I'd try to work as well as you can on rehab yourself. I tore mine fairly bad the same year that my wife, unfortunately, came down with Fibromyalgia, which is incredibly expensive to diagnose.
After burning through cash for six months (treating my wife), I was desperate to help my shoulder and didn't want to pay for surgery. Mine was nearly frozen. I read about hanging therapy and, ever so gradually, worked my way up to hanging. Started with lat pull down with individual cables at the gym. I would put really light weights on it, hold the one handle with my good shoulder and let the small weight gently pull up on the torn/frozen one. Long story short, I rehabbed my own tear over around four months, working 3 X a week on it.
I realize if tears are larger, that's not possible, but with small tears, you can. I know several guys with very similar experiences to mine with hanging therapy. It does work but you have to do it very gradually.
If I know my doc (the surgeon) he will order an MRI to confirm it's still ~40% or so, and hopefully a cortisone shot...either way, thank you for the tip, and I'm glad things worked out for you
I wish you the best. It sucked having to replace lifting with PT at the gym, but if you're able to, replacing rehab with lifting 3X a week was what got me better. No heavy weights and I don't sound like half the lifter you are, so that's very tough.1 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »
Thanks for that @MikePfirrman ! That gives me some more hope. I never heard about the hanging therapy, but I am absolutely going to look into it.MikePfirrman wrote: »If it's less than 40%, I'd try to work as well as you can on rehab yourself. I tore mine fairly bad the same year that my wife, unfortunately, came down with Fibromyalgia, which is incredibly expensive to diagnose.
After burning through cash for six months (treating my wife), I was desperate to help my shoulder and didn't want to pay for surgery. Mine was nearly frozen. I read about hanging therapy and, ever so gradually, worked my way up to hanging. Started with lat pull down with individual cables at the gym. I would put really light weights on it, hold the one handle with my good shoulder and let the small weight gently pull up on the torn/frozen one. Long story short, I rehabbed my own tear over around four months, working 3 X a week on it.
I realize if tears are larger, that's not possible, but with small tears, you can. I know several guys with very similar experiences to mine with hanging therapy. It does work but you have to do it very gradually.
If I know my doc (the surgeon) he will order an MRI to confirm it's still ~40% or so, and hopefully a cortisone shot...either way, thank you for the tip, and I'm glad things worked out for you
I wish you the best. It sucked having to replace lifting with PT at the gym, but if you're able to, replacing rehab with lifting 3X a week was what got me better. No heavy weights and I don't sound like half the lifter you are, so that's very tough.
Thank you Mike...I'm more of a maintain and strengthen if able type, but yes, lifting has been primarily it for me for years. The first RC surgery was really tough on that front mentally, but it turned out well so this one (if needed) will be easier.
Being able to post here and get great tips helps a bunch too
edit: Starting that this afternoon Mike. Thank you!1 -
If you use correct form and supinate hand grip 45 degrees, you should be able to do seated cable rows. I would do single arm to help with form.
You also might be able to do a landmine press.1 -
Thanks @Azdak - The landmine press is one of the alternatives I had in mind, so it's nice to see it mentioned. I'll look up the single arm cables rows as well. Thank you Every little bit helps.
The important thing is that every new exercise you try you start super light, low volume, and then it might take 1-3 days to determine whether it’s tolerable.
Another exercise to try is a single arm anterior serratus press. I like to start doing it on an incline bench, because it’s easier to feel the movement, but you can do it supine as well.
A lot depends on how proficient you are at being able to maintain scapular stability while lifting.
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Thanks @Azdak - The landmine press is one of the alternatives I had in mind, so it's nice to see it mentioned. I'll look up the single arm cables rows as well. Thank you Every little bit helps.
The important thing is that every new exercise you try you start super light, low volume, and then it might take 1-3 days to determine whether it’s tolerable.
Another exercise to try is a single arm anterior serratus press. I like to start doing it on an incline bench, because it’s easier to feel the movement, but you can do it supine as well.
A lot depends on how proficient you are at being able to maintain scapular stability while lifting.
This reminded me. Another exercise that helped me immensely was this one (it's been a few years back). His comment on Scapular Stability reminded me. I don't know enough about physiology to understand why this helped with my shoulder stability so much, but it did.
https://redefiningstrength.com/scapular-push-ups/1 -
Thanks @Azdak - The landmine press is one of the alternatives I had in mind, so it's nice to see it mentioned. I'll look up the single arm cables rows as well. Thank you Every little bit helps.
The important thing is that every new exercise you try you start super light, low volume, and then it might take 1-3 days to determine whether it’s tolerable.
Another exercise to try is a single arm anterior serratus press. I like to start doing it on an incline bench, because it’s easier to feel the movement, but you can do it supine as well.
A lot depends on how proficient you are at being able to maintain scapular stability while lifting.
Thanks again Azdak. I should be able to, but will concentrate on that doing these presses. The video I found showing that press really stressed the stability, form and light weight, so inline bench it is.
I'll try that one as well Mike.MikePfirrman wrote: »Thanks @Azdak - The landmine press is one of the alternatives I had in mind, so it's nice to see it mentioned. I'll look up the single arm cables rows as well. Thank you Every little bit helps.
The important thing is that every new exercise you try you start super light, low volume, and then it might take 1-3 days to determine whether it’s tolerable.
Another exercise to try is a single arm anterior serratus press. I like to start doing it on an incline bench, because it’s easier to feel the movement, but you can do it supine as well.
A lot depends on how proficient you are at being able to maintain scapular stability while lifting.
This reminded me. Another exercise that helped me immensely was this one (it's been a few years back). His comment on Scapular Stability reminded me. I don't know enough about physiology to understand why this helped with my shoulder stability so much, but it did.
https://redefiningstrength.com/scapular-push-ups/
This is fantastic guys. I really appreciate this input. The whole deal had me down a bit more than I wanted to let on. I did the first set of hang therapy a while ago and it felt great. Maybe not a ruined summer after all.
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FYI, while u may be able to rehab a tendon, you cannot rehab a ligament.
A ligament tear can only be repaired w/surgery or supported by increasing the strength of the surrounding muscles, like in the 3 way lig tear in my left knee but, even, then there are movements that you will never be able to do again w/o surgery to reattach or replace the ligament.
Never got the knee surgery and can walk normally but can't ski or run w/o wearing a CF brace to prevent twisting the knee in the same way that it was injured while skiing. W/o the brace the knee would pop out and would be useless.
Unfortunately, there is no shoulder brace that you can buy that will allow you to make use of your shoulder in the same way w/a lig tear. If there were, I would have bought 2.3 -
FYI, while u may be able to rehab a tendon, you cannot rehab a ligament.
A ligament tear can only be repaired w/surgery or supported by increasing the strength of the surrounding muscles, like in the 3 way lig tear in my left knee but, even, then there are movements that you will never be able to do again w/o surgery to reattach or replace the ligament.
Never got the knee surgery and can walk normally but can't ski or run w/o wearing a CF brace to prevent twisting the knee in the same way that it was injured while skiing. W/o the brace the knee would pop out and would be useless.
Unfortunately, there is no shoulder brace that you can buy that will allow you to make use of your shoulder in the same way w/a lig tear. If there were, I would have bought 2.
My doc gave me the full talk on ligs and tendons prior to my last surgery. He was worried that I would try to jump back in before the repair had fully healed. That hurt enough that I didn't want to though lol. I really don't want to repeat that with this other shoulder, so these tips are absolute gold to me.
I'll tell you though, if someone ever did develop that non-existant brace you're talking about, I would probably pay quite a bit for it.0 -
Just a quick update: @MikePfirrman and @Azdak
I've been doing these exercises you recommended since my last post in this thread and it just wouldn't feel right if I didn't get a "Thank you!" out to the both of you. I'm still being cautious regarding workouts, but for the past ~week and a half or so pain has been very minimal. I haven't gone a whole week with no pain/not waking up at night for ages.
Mobility is back to where I wouldn't think it could have gotten to without surgery.
Thank you gentlemen for taking the time to stop and post those recommendations. 5 -
Just a quick update: @MikePfirrman and @Azdak
I've been doing these exercises you recommended since my last post in this thread and it just wouldn't feel right if I didn't get a "Thank you!" out to the both of you. I'm still being cautious regarding workouts, but for the past ~week and a half or so pain has been very minimal. I haven't gone a whole week with no pain/not waking up at night for ages.
Mobility is back to where I wouldn't think it could have gotten to without surgery.
Thank you gentlemen for taking the time to stop and post those recommendations.
Glad it’s working for you so far and very nice of you to come back with the feedback.
2 -
Just a quick update: @MikePfirrman and @Azdak
I've been doing these exercises you recommended since my last post in this thread and it just wouldn't feel right if I didn't get a "Thank you!" out to the both of you. I'm still being cautious regarding workouts, but for the past ~week and a half or so pain has been very minimal. I haven't gone a whole week with no pain/not waking up at night for ages.
Mobility is back to where I wouldn't think it could have gotten to without surgery.
Thank you gentlemen for taking the time to stop and post those recommendations.
Glad it’s working for you so far and very nice of you to come back with the feedback.
He's just a nice guy!
Right @Phirrgus ? 1 -
Just a quick update: @MikePfirrman and @Azdak
I've been doing these exercises you recommended since my last post in this thread and it just wouldn't feel right if I didn't get a "Thank you!" out to the both of you. I'm still being cautious regarding workouts, but for the past ~week and a half or so pain has been very minimal. I haven't gone a whole week with no pain/not waking up at night for ages.
Mobility is back to where I wouldn't think it could have gotten to without surgery.
Thank you gentlemen for taking the time to stop and post those recommendations.
Glad it’s working for you so far and very nice of you to come back with the feedback.
I'm really glad for you! Keep working those small muscles on warmups! Appreciate the follow up. It's good to hear.1 -
@sgt1372FYI, while u may be able to rehab a tendon, you cannot rehab a ligament.
A ligament tear can only be repaired w/surgery or supported by increasing the strength of the surrounding muscles, like in the 3 way lig tear in my left knee but, even, then there are movements that you will never be able to do again w/o surgery to reattach or replace the ligament.
Never got the knee surgery and can walk normally but can't ski or run w/o wearing a CF brace to prevent twisting the knee in the same way that it was injured while skiing. W/o the brace the knee would pop out and would be useless.
Unfortunately, there is no shoulder brace that you can buy that will allow you to make use of your shoulder in the same way w/a lig tear. If there were, I would have bought 2.
The bold isn't true.
Ligaments do repair themselves - I'm currently rehabbing from a grade 2 MCL tear.
You seem to be confusing a ruptured (completely parted) ligament with a partially torn one.
(I've also got a completely ruptured PCL in the same knee, that couldn't repair itself - the stumps of the ligament simply atrophied.)
For the repair process on a partially torn ligament see https://www.physioroom.com/injuries/supplements/ligaments2.php2 -
Just a quick update: @MikePfirrman and @Azdak
I've been doing these exercises you recommended since my last post in this thread and it just wouldn't feel right if I didn't get a "Thank you!" out to the both of you. I'm still being cautious regarding workouts, but for the past ~week and a half or so pain has been very minimal. I haven't gone a whole week with no pain/not waking up at night for ages.
Mobility is back to where I wouldn't think it could have gotten to without surgery.
Thank you gentlemen for taking the time to stop and post those recommendations.
Glad it’s working for you so far and very nice of you to come back with the feedback.
He's just a nice guy! Right @Phirrgus ?
That's right 1 -
@sgt1372FYI, while u may be able to rehab a tendon, you cannot rehab a ligament.
A ligament tear can only be repaired w/surgery or supported by increasing the strength of the surrounding muscles, like in the 3 way lig tear in my left knee but, even, then there are movements that you will never be able to do again w/o surgery to reattach or replace the ligament.
Never got the knee surgery and can walk normally but can't ski or run w/o wearing a CF brace to prevent twisting the knee in the same way that it was injured while skiing. W/o the brace the knee would pop out and would be useless.
Unfortunately, there is no shoulder brace that you can buy that will allow you to make use of your shoulder in the same way w/a lig tear. If there were, I would have bought 2.
The bold isn't true.
Ligaments do repair themselves - I'm currently rehabbing from a grade 2 MCL tear.
You seem to be confusing a ruptured (completely parted) ligament with a partially torn one.
(I've also got a completely ruptured PCL in the same knee, that couldn't repair itself - the stumps of the ligament simply atrophied.)
For the repair process on a partially torn ligament see https://www.physioroom.com/injuries/supplements/ligaments2.php
Good to know @sijomial , I was also under the impression it had to have surgery. Thanks for the info, and I hope you heal up quickly!0 -
I have a tear that's about 90%. I have been told no planks, push ups or lateral raises. From what I've read a low grade tear like you have responds well to rehab therapy. So I'd keep trying to build the muscles. Mine is basically being held together by the muscles so that does help.0
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AliNouveau wrote: »I have a tear that's about 90%. I have been told no planks, push ups or lateral raises. From what I've read a low grade tear like you have responds well to rehab therapy. So I'd keep trying to build the muscles. Mine is basically being held together by the muscles so that does help.
My n=1 says yes
I cringed when I read your thread @AliNouveau - brought back memories of my right shoulder (full tear) that I just didn't want lol. Hope you're doing well as can be expected with that tear.0 -
AliNouveau wrote: »I have a tear that's about 90%. I have been told no planks, push ups or lateral raises. From what I've read a low grade tear like you have responds well to rehab therapy. So I'd keep trying to build the muscles. Mine is basically being held together by the muscles so that does help.
My n=1 says yes
I cringed when I read your thread @AliNouveau - brought back memories of my right shoulder (full tear) that I just didn't want lol. Hope you're doing well as can be expected with that tear.
Will be interesting to see if you can rehab it. I have a feeling my good shoulder has something wrong. You can be the guinea pig and see if it works. Haha
I need to call the surgeon and bug him. Shoulders are such delicate things1 -
AliNouveau wrote: »AliNouveau wrote: »I have a tear that's about 90%. I have been told no planks, push ups or lateral raises. From what I've read a low grade tear like you have responds well to rehab therapy. So I'd keep trying to build the muscles. Mine is basically being held together by the muscles so that does help.
My n=1 says yes
I cringed when I read your thread @AliNouveau - brought back memories of my right shoulder (full tear) that I just didn't want lol. Hope you're doing well as can be expected with that tear.
Will be interesting to see if you can rehab it. I have a feeling my good shoulder has something wrong. You can be the guinea pig and see if it works. Haha
I need to call the surgeon and bug him. Shoulders are such delicate things
So far so good, I'll keep spinning in my hampster wheel and hope for the best 0 -
AliNouveau wrote: »AliNouveau wrote: »I have a tear that's about 90%. I have been told no planks, push ups or lateral raises. From what I've read a low grade tear like you have responds well to rehab therapy. So I'd keep trying to build the muscles. Mine is basically being held together by the muscles so that does help.
My n=1 says yes
I cringed when I read your thread @AliNouveau - brought back memories of my right shoulder (full tear) that I just didn't want lol. Hope you're doing well as can be expected with that tear.
Will be interesting to see if you can rehab it. I have a feeling my good shoulder has something wrong. You can be the guinea pig and see if it works. Haha
I need to call the surgeon and bug him. Shoulders are such delicate things
So far so good, I'll keep spinning in my hampster wheel and hope for the best
Well you'll know all the strengthening exercises. They do help. I took some muscle relaxers for my back and realized just how much the muscles in my shoulder are saving it. I will now just put up with any back pains hahah0 -
AliNouveau wrote: »AliNouveau wrote: »AliNouveau wrote: »I have a tear that's about 90%. I have been told no planks, push ups or lateral raises. From what I've read a low grade tear like you have responds well to rehab therapy. So I'd keep trying to build the muscles. Mine is basically being held together by the muscles so that does help.
My n=1 says yes
I cringed when I read your thread @AliNouveau - brought back memories of my right shoulder (full tear) that I just didn't want lol. Hope you're doing well as can be expected with that tear.
Will be interesting to see if you can rehab it. I have a feeling my good shoulder has something wrong. You can be the guinea pig and see if it works. Haha
I need to call the surgeon and bug him. Shoulders are such delicate things
So far so good, I'll keep spinning in my hampster wheel and hope for the best
Well you'll know all the strengthening exercises. They do help. I took some muscle relaxers for my back and realized just how much the muscles in my shoulder are saving it. I will now just put up with any back pains hahah
Hopefully you can get that taken care of soon. I hated going through it, but so glad it's done and overwith now.0
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