Starvation Mode - Adaptive Thermogenesis and Weight Loss

tigerblue

I think that this perhaps explains what has happened to me, and why I cant maintain on a reasonable amount of calories (for my height and weight).

It is comforting to have my suspicions confirmed. I am not crazy just because I cant seem to eat at TDEE according to the charts without a quick and substantial weight gain.

But it sounds like this is temporary.

So bottom line--how do I fix it, and how long will it take? Ive been trying to maintain now for 3 years, and have slowly gained while eating several hundred under my TDEE.

TheOneandOnlyPanda

Interesting post. I'll have to read through the whole thing when I get a chance.

swillybay

Thanks for taking the time to write it - finally something logical and understandable.

joshdann

I think that this perhaps explains what has happened to me, and why I cant maintain on a reasonable amount of calories (for my height and weight).

It is comforting to have my suspicions confirmed. I am not crazy just because I cant seem to eat at TDEE according to the charts without a quick and substantial weight gain.

But it sounds like this is temporary.

So bottom line--how do I fix it, and how long will it take? Ive been trying to maintain now for 3 years, and have slowly gained while eating several hundred under my TDEE.

You really should just go get your BMR measured so you know if you are even in the ballpark of what you think your "TDEE" is.

thebrock7

looks great - bump to give proper attention later

tigerblue

I think that this perhaps explains what has happened to me, and why I cant maintain on a reasonable amount of calories (for my height and weight).

It is comforting to have my suspicions confirmed. I am not crazy just because I cant seem to eat at TDEE according to the charts without a quick and substantial weight gain.

But it sounds like this is temporary.

So bottom line--how do I fix it, and how long will it take? Ive been trying to maintain now for 3 years, and have slowly gained while eating several hundred under my TDEE.

You really should just go get your BMR measured so you know if you are even in the ballpark of what you think your "TDEE" is.

Yes I would like to do the teting and maybe I can eventually.

But perhaps I should be mor clear.

I am comparing my TDEE calculation from the various calculators (1700-1900) and my Bodymedia (2200) to my actual real-world results. When I do the math, based on four months of careful tracking of food and exercise and actual weight, It looks like my TDEE calculates at about 1560. I did that using weight gain/loss over four months and the premise that one pound lost/gained is 3500 calories of deficit/surplus.

So the real world results ARE my TDEE. The problem is it doesnt match the calculators. So I have been asking "why?"", and ""what can I do about it?".

mushroomsontoast

Bump for later - very informative, thank you for compiling all that into one post

mcanavan05

A great read , thanks for posting !
3 months in I did a diet break - a week netting maintenance - I file it under "can't hurt, might help".

Week netting maintenance, can you explain.. i went from 224 to 206..back to 210-215 over a year.. working on trending down again from 215...Aug 2012-2013.. in between there i watch cal but not food type..bar food, etc.. eating clean produce, fruits less processed and may have already started to trend downward.

EvgeniZyntx

Evgeni,
Sure hate I missed your wall posting on this, over the weekend of my training, not much on here at all.

Great article and references, had couple of those in store already but never written out with info.

I do wonder about the amount of deficit too. Have to find the study where a reasonable deficit as the only factor led to retain LBM or muscle mass, not sure which one they measured since that does matter.

But no resistance training as usual, or higher protein either.

I wonder if that much of a reasonable deficit would be on the low end of the AT range.

So I guess the gals that don't adjust their calories down, and accidentally do TDEE for some weeks before lowering calories are actually helping themselves, if they didn't do too much harm in the first place.

Most likely, that type of plateau is probably similar to eating at the lower end of maintenance. I'm not certain but this is perhaps the point where upping to the higher end of maintenance helps before dong a further cut. It's a generalization and not necessarily useful on the individual basis.

SanteMulberry

A great read , thanks for posting !
3 months in I did a diet break - a week netting maintenance - I file it under "can't hurt, might help".

Yeah--I was getting pretty frustrated with calorie-restriction while trying to exercise more--just wasn't happening--too tired and my fat stores were NOT budging. I have been eating at maintenance for about three months now and have bumped up my exercise and weight training. I feel much better and have been slowly losing what I think is mostly body fat as the small weight loss (about a pound per month) has caused a visible reduction in body fat stores and smaller clothing sizes. I never would have imagined that losing just three pounds could make so much difference. AND I never thought I could have so much energy while losing body fat!

ETA: By the way, I have shifted the balance of my macros a bit from what I had formerly. I am eating a little less protein (when I eat too much protein, I get gout attacks). I eat the amount of protein that I would eat to maintain my estimated LBM at a lower weight. I eat a little bit more carbs than I was eating before (to cover my increased exercise) but I never eat more than 120 grams per day. Hopefully, in that way my body is forced to burn fat for the extra calories to cover the exercise rather than burning carbs alone to fuel the exercise (which seems to be what is going on when I eat more than 120 grams). I still eat a large proportion of my calories in "good" fats.

jb_2011

Great stuff thanks. I've held steady a full year at 67lbs lost, can't seem to drop the last 10, though. I'll share this post with others I know who are in the same boat.

Mr_Knight

Finally got around to reading this thread.

Question: based on what was posted in the initial set of posts, it would suggest that highly trained athletes would also have a lower REE than that predicted for the general population (normalized for lean body mass, of course). Is that in fact the case?

DeeDee2211

Thanks for the post!

heybales

Finally got around to reading this thread.

Question: based on what was posted in the initial set of posts, it would suggest that highly trained athletes would also have a lower REE than that predicted for the general population (normalized for lean body mass, of course). Is that in fact the case?

Yes. That being endurance cardio athletes. Strength related athletes continue to maintain just fine.

Couple ways to tell if it might apply.
Low morning resting HR - like below 50.
Fast HR recovery after exercise, like you stop and from elevated HR you drop 50 bpm in 1 or 2 min.

Of course, must start on the high side of eating - if you have already caused some AT to happen, then your RMR would be lower for that reason too.

ashleyisgreat

Bumping to read later. I cannot tell you how excited I am to see research on here.

EvgeniZyntx

I think that this perhaps explains what has happened to me, and why I cant maintain on a reasonable amount of calories (for my height and weight).

It is comforting to have my suspicions confirmed. I am not crazy just because I cant seem to eat at TDEE according to the charts without a quick and substantial weight gain.

But it sounds like this is temporary.

So bottom line--how do I fix it, and how long will it take? Ive been trying to maintain now for 3 years, and have slowly gained while eating several hundred under my TDEE.

Basically I would recommend that you purposely eat at your effective TDEE (maintenance) to take a diet break from what you have determined and do strength training to increase LBM - increase in LBM is the single most effective factor in BMR changes.

- diet breaks have positive effects and allow for overall better adherence. This is not an invitation to eat everything just at maintenance.
- figure out a training routine that is progressive strength training - this can take a few months to determine and practice properly.

EvgeniZyntx

I think that this perhaps explains what has happened to me, and why I cant maintain on a reasonable amount of calories (for my height and weight).

It is comforting to have my suspicions confirmed. I am not crazy just because I cant seem to eat at TDEE according to the charts without a quick and substantial weight gain.

But it sounds like this is temporary.

So bottom line--how do I fix it, and how long will it take? Ive been trying to maintain now for 3 years, and have slowly gained while eating several hundred under my TDEE.

You really should just go get your BMR measured so you know if you are even in the ballpark of what you think your "TDEE" is.

Yes I would like to do the teting and maybe I can eventually.

But perhaps I should be mor clear.

I am comparing my TDEE calculation from the various calculators (1700-1900) and my Bodymedia (2200) to my actual real-world results. When I do the math, based on four months of careful tracking of food and exercise and actual weight, It looks like my TDEE calculates at about 1560. I did that using weight gain/loss over four months and the premise that one pound lost/gained is 3500 calories of deficit/surplus.

So the real world results ARE my TDEE. The problem is it doesnt match the calculators. So I have been asking "why?"", and ""what can I do about it?".

The other effect over time is exercise efficiency - the same exercise for someone doing it a long time is that the calorie burns decrease as we become athletic - the body thrives on efficiency! Choices:

- increase frequency or intensity - but this isn't always possible and creates a significant risk of injury
- increase LBM as posted before
- diet further - yuck, plus risk of nutrient issues and not really the best long term solution.

So ... Work on LBM ...

EvgeniZyntx

A great read , thanks for posting !
3 months in I did a diet break - a week netting maintenance - I file it under "can't hurt, might help".

Week netting maintenance, can you explain.. i went from 224 to 206..back to 210-215 over a year.. working on trending down again from 215...Aug 2012-2013.. in between there i watch cal but not food type..bar food, etc.. eating clean produce, fruits less processed and may have already started to trend downward.

A week of netting maintenance means that the person ate at maintenance calories for the week including exercise needs. For example if your general TDEE is 2000 but that week you are also adding 300 from extra exercise (above habitual activity included in the 2000) then eating 2300 would be "netting maintenance".

EvgeniZyntx

Finally got around to reading this thread.

Question: based on what was posted in the initial set of posts, it would suggest that highly trained athletes would also have a lower REE than that predicted for the general population (normalized for lean body mass, of course). Is that in fact the case?

Yes. That being endurance cardio athletes. Strength related athletes continue to maintain just fine.

Couple ways to tell if it might apply.
Low morning resting HR - like below 50.
Fast HR recovery after exercise, like you stop and from elevated HR you drop 50 bpm in 1 or 2 min.

Of course, must start on the high side of eating - if you have already caused some AT to happen, then your RMR would be lower for that reason too.

Well, certainly have a lower EE for a given activity but a lower RMR (corrected for LBM)? I would think so... Yet some research shows the opposite.

See this table



From http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/5/793.full.pdf

Is a bit older and sample size is limited (9) but it suggests the RMR was higher in the trained individuals. Comments, or other research?

theoriginaljayne

Great post. Thank you.