80% Consumption, 20% exercise: Change my Mind
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For me, weight gain is 80% lack of exercise. I'm a short female and don't need many calories. When I become less active and lose, say, the 200 calories a day I had been burning, that's when I gain weight. I've never gained weight while being even moderately active. For example, a 45 minute brisk walk a day is enough to keep me in shape.
Then, when I'm not exercising, as others have said, I also get a little more careless with my food. I'll overindulge maybe 8 days a month instead of my more typical 4.
But that's me. The baseline calories that I'm naturally satisfied with are low enough that I'd have to make a deliberate effort to gain weight when I'm also somewhat active.3 -
I always said 75% diet, 25% exercise, but arguing one vs. the other seems like a waste of time.0
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If you have an appetite like mine then there's no way you could out run a bad diet. If you're just just going for general fat loss then simply making better choices can help but its really hard to gauge where your calorie deficit falls this way. You might lose some weight but you likely won't see a consistent rate of fat-loss.
If you want to see fat-loss drop like clockwork, then keeping track of your calories is really the best way to go about it. This doesn't need to be forever but it's much easier to maintain your weight once you've hit your fat-loss goal.
Good luck!
-Michael1 -
80% and 20% of what: Calories? Body weight? Time? Effort?
My take: The percentages are a figure of speech, not actual math with meaning. (That makes them reeealllly easy to argue about
).
Personal story: I was very active, working out quite intensely most days, even competing (not always unsuccessfully
) while obese . . . for around 15 years. It was easy to stay obese, even if eating primarily nutritiously: It's just a few hundred calories a day that makes the difference. I can eat that much extra whole wheat pasta, or full-fat Greek yogurt, or peanut butter, or whole nuts, or some combination of that sort of thing. Easy!
2015, come to MFP, get the intake dialed in at a sensible level, eating pretty much the same foods (in different portions and proportions), keep doing pretty much the same amounts of the same kinds of exercise . . . lose almost 1/3 of my body weight, and stay at a healthy weight since, the same way.
Does that make it 100% about diet? Only metaphorically, and only for me. 3 -
Of course you can outrun a "bad" diet and your fork if you are a competitive athlete, exercise a lot, are very active... UNTIL... you cannot do any of those activities because life and the myriad of reasons that may derail you from your high exercise and activity burns between age 2 and 102 get in the way.
I am the first to admit that I DO use activity as a regulator and adjunct to losing and maintaining weight and things ARE much more "interesting" when I can't engage in my (now) normal level of activity.
However, this go-around (starting about six years ago) was the first time that I explicitly de-coupled exercise from weight control and internalized that it was the caloric BALANCE that mattered, and that it is often a heck of a lot more effective to NOT eat an extra 250 Cal of Snickers bars <how come no one on MFP mentions Snickers bars anymore?> than to *rely* on an activity that will burn the same amount of calories to achieve the necessary balance.
Do I grab a snickers bar (or protein bar, or vanilla cone, or scone) on my way to a 1.5+ hour walk/hike? And/or eat something similar, or a donut, or soup, or chili, or burger on my way back from one, or as soon as I get home?
You bet! And I call this fueling my exercise (and keep track of it and add it to my daily totals)!
But do I guzzle a milk-shake, or decide that I can overeat under the self imposed "deal" that I am going to work it out later? ABSOLUTELY NOT. And i think that many here (and many no longer here) have experienced first hand the multiple problems with this approach, not the least of it being unhealthy obsessing.
Which leads to: in the long term you can't outrun your fork!0 -
Origin of the 80/20:
The Pareto principle (also known as the 80/20 rule, the law of the vital few, or the principle of factor sparsity)[1][2] states that, for many events, roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes.[3] Management consultant Joseph M. Juran suggested the principle and named it after Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto, who noted the 80/20 connection while at the University of Lausanne in 1896, as published in his first work, Cours d'économie politique. In it, Pareto showed that approximately 80% of the land in Italy was owned by 20% of the population.
It is an axiom of business management that "80% of sales come from 20% of clients
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle
It's not exact percents. All it is saying is, in the situation being discussed, is consumption is significantly more important than exercise in weight control. In another example, eating a diet with appropriate nutrients and calories is 80/20 (or probably a higher ratio) or more important to health and fitness goals than the timing of eating the appropriate diet.
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Of course you can outrun a "bad" diet and your fork if you are a competitive athlete, exercise a lot, are very active... UNTIL... you cannot do any of those activities because life and the myriad of reasons that may derail you from your high exercise and activity burns between age 2 and 102 get in the way.
I am the first to admit that I DO use activity as a regulator and adjunct to losing and maintaining weight and things ARE much more "interesting" when I can't engage in my (now) normal level of activity.
However, this go-around (starting about six years ago) was the first time that I explicitly de-coupled exercise from weight control and internalized that it was the caloric BALANCE that mattered, and that it is often a heck of a lot more effective to NOT eat an extra 250 Cal of Snickers bars <how come no one on MFP mentions Snickers bars anymore?> than to *rely* on an activity that will burn the same amount of calories to achieve the necessary balance.
Do I grab a snickers bar (or protein bar, or vanilla cone, or scone) on my way to a 1.5+ hour walk/hike? And/or eat something similar, or a donut, or soup, or chili, or burger on my way back from one, or as soon as I get home?
You bet! And I call this fueling my exercise (and keep track of it and add it to my daily totals)!
But do I guzzle a milk-shake, or decide that I can overeat under the self imposed "deal" that I am going to work it out later? ABSOLUTELY NOT. And i think that many here (and many no longer here) have experienced first hand the multiple problems with this approach, not the least of it being unhealthy obsessing.
Which leads to: in the long term you can't outrun your fork!
@PAV8888
I faced that situation last year with four big injuries that severely compromised my usual very high exercise levels. (Conservative estimate of just my cycling exercise in 2018 was c. 170,000 cals to give an idea of how much extra I get to eat.)
So I ate less (that's a huge advantage of the MyFitnessPal eat back exercise calories method or mindset).
Some of the dedication I normally focus on my training I switched to my diet and actually ended the year at a lower weight than normal.
It's not like you are locked into a certain pattern forever. Life and circumstances change and you adapt accordingly. Long term I am out exercising my fork in the sense that I have huge freedom over my diet (normally an extra meal or extra two snacks a day perhaps?) but at times the dietary budget gets restricted and requires more focus.
Normally in Spring my diet stays the same and my exercise ramps up to lose my winter fluff and get back to my preferred cycling weight (100% exercise 0% diet to use the flawed vernacular of percentages) but this Spring as I'm still rehabbing it's going to be about 50/50).1 -
@PAV8888 I faced that situation last year with four big injuries that severely compromised my usual very high exercise levels. (Conservative estimate of just my cycling exercise in 2018 was c. 170,000 cals to give an idea of how much extra I get to eat.)
So I ate less (that's a huge advantage of the MyFitnessPal eat back exercise calories method or mindset).
Some of the dedication I normally focus on my training I switched to my diet and actually ended the year at a lower weight than normal.
It's not like you are locked into a certain pattern forever. Life and circumstances change and you adapt accordingly. Long term I am out exercising my fork in the sense that I have huge freedom over my diet (normally an extra meal or extra two snacks a day perhaps?) but at times the dietary budget gets restricted and requires more focus.
Normally in Spring my diet stays the same and my exercise ramps up to lose my winter fluff and get back to my preferred cycling weight (100% exercise 0% diet to use the flawed vernacular of percentages) but this Spring as I'm still rehabbing it's going to be about 50/50).
I think we have less of a disagreement on substance and more on semantics.
I understand what you're doing to be NOT outrunning the fork.
You are eating WITHIN your caloric budget and you are not deliberately ramping up exercise to compensate for your food. When you cannot exercise you adjust the food.
This, to me, is textbook NOT outrunning.1 -
Well its the macros that count and lately falling back into comfort food and drink. the holidays. Need to get the food back on track to a deficit of 500cals a day for a pound per week.0
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@PAV8888 I faced that situation last year with four big injuries that severely compromised my usual very high exercise levels. (Conservative estimate of just my cycling exercise in 2018 was c. 170,000 cals to give an idea of how much extra I get to eat.)
So I ate less (that's a huge advantage of the MyFitnessPal eat back exercise calories method or mindset).
Some of the dedication I normally focus on my training I switched to my diet and actually ended the year at a lower weight than normal.
It's not like you are locked into a certain pattern forever. Life and circumstances change and you adapt accordingly. Long term I am out exercising my fork in the sense that I have huge freedom over my diet (normally an extra meal or extra two snacks a day perhaps?) but at times the dietary budget gets restricted and requires more focus.
Normally in Spring my diet stays the same and my exercise ramps up to lose my winter fluff and get back to my preferred cycling weight (100% exercise 0% diet to use the flawed vernacular of percentages) but this Spring as I'm still rehabbing it's going to be about 50/50).
I think we have less of a disagreement on substance and more on semantics.
I understand what you're doing to be NOT outrunning the fork.
You are eating WITHIN your caloric budget and you are not deliberately ramping up exercise to compensate for your food. When you cannot exercise you adjust the food.
This, to me, is textbook NOT outrunning.
My caloric budget is set by all factors including a major but variable contribution from exercise, yes it's not a budget that I exercise to attain. I exercise for enjoyment, health and fitness.
But as a bonus it contributes to an eating level (3,000 - 3,500 cals) that is both enjoyable and sustainable. We do disagree on the relative positions of the cart and the horse!
I would have to be a complete glutton to out eat my exercise. Then the problem would be gluttony which really isn't related to exercise.1 -
You don't really have to move at all to lose weight, you just have to lessen your calorie intake. I always recommend people take it slow and not go all in. Take those small steps and adjust.1
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cupcakesandproteinshakes wrote: »People who are super active can outrun the fork but for your desk based person who is overweight, probably not.
Unless they are a professional athlete, it's pretty close to impossible. LeBron James and Michael Phelps? Probably. But active guy who exercises 6 or 7 days a week for an hour or 2? Not likely.
Now you have to understand what we say by this: Not that some people don't naturally eat at their maintenance or deficit level through activity. Sure. Some people are naturally better regulators than others. What "you can't outrun the fork" means is that you can't eat as many calories as possible and still lose weight, just because you exercise. It's an important distinction.
Back before my lifestyle change, there were days I could regularly put back 4000-5000 calories in a day, without that much effort. Those type of days are not getting outran, even if I went to my 90 minute Krav Maga class every day.
That's absolutely one part of it and probably the most important aspect. But there are other aspects or meanings I take from this saying.
Firstly that increased physical activity comes with a corresponding increase in calorie intake in order to fuel that activity and, for the most part satisfy the corresponding increase in appetite. Significantly increasing calorie burn without properly fuelling that activity is going to lead to a crash and burn. So generally speaking the benefits derived from a sensible approach to working out will be realised in fitness levels while the weight loss will largely remain unchanged, since the overall calorie deficit will remain largely unchanged.
The other aspect is that the effort required to reduce caloric intake is significantly easier than than burning those calories off. With largely imperceptible changes to portion size and a couple of substitutions or different choices removing 300-400 calories per day from food intake is trivial and requires WAY less effort than a 300-400 calorie daily work out session (which can't be fuelled with extra calories!). It's just straight up easier to achieve the required calorie deficit on the intake.
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Oh man, I absolutely find it easier to do more exercise than eat less - I am a chronically hungry person.
You can't outrun the fork, but I run to get more fork.5 -
I would agree with this estimation. The math just works out that way based upon the equation:
Caloric Intake (CI) (Food) + Caloric Output (CO) (BMR + Exercise) = Deficit/Maintenance/Surplus
It is far easier to ingest calories than it is to burn them. The majority simply do not have the time/energy/discipline to exercise at a high level for several hours unless in a program that requires this - professional sports, military, etc.0 -
I always thought that if you were doughy to start and you dropped weight, you will still be doughy just a smaller version. So, if you track your macros, as opposed to just Calories In Calories Out, you can build muscle while burning fat. I would assume if your calories daily consumption consists of 1K calories of birthday cake, even with burning 1.1K calories in the gym, you will not get the aesthetics you desire. But if your calories come from lean protein and such, your physique will improve more with your gym work.
Am I looking at this the wrong way? Is my logic flawed?1 -
Working out generally makes you eat more, since your body (muscles) require the extra energy. Because of that if you are not careful of WHAT you are eating, you will generally overeat. Athletes who strength train generally have high calorie diets. But it is generally high protein, lower carb and also they burn off more than they take in.0
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ryanfoley74 wrote: »I always thought that if you were doughy to start and you dropped weight, you will still be doughy just a smaller version. So, if you track your macros, as opposed to just Calories In Calories Out, you can build muscle while burning fat. I would assume if your calories daily consumption consists of 1K calories of birthday cake, even with burning 1.1K calories in the gym, you will not get the aesthetics you desire. But if your calories come from lean protein and such, your physique will improve more with your gym work.
Am I looking at this the wrong way? Is my logic flawed?
Weight loss happens when you’re in a calorie deficit-whether you’re eating birthday cake or dry chicken breast. When you lose that weight, you will lose fat and some muscle.
Getting adequate protein intake AND doing consistent, progressive resistance training (eg weightlifting) will help minimize the amount of muscle that is lost. That will improve your body composition as you lose-so your body fat % is lower and you look less “doughy”.
However, as long as you are getting enough protein and your other nutritional needs are met, eating birthday cake will not inherently leave you looking doughy (as long as it fits your calories).
So sort of a combo. You need consistent, progressive resistance training and adequate protein intake to really minimize muscle loss as you lose (which is what contributes to losing less muscle/lower body fat/better physique). Your diet beyond that will only matter for meeting nutrition needs and satiety/adherence.
You don’t need to eat only chicken/rice/broccoli and eggs from now until forever to have a good physique. Also of note-just eating those things won’t give you a good physique.
One could eat 700 calories of protein, 500 calories of birthday cake, do progressive/consistent strength training, burn 1300 calories and end up with a nice physique. They would probably not feel good because they will be missing lots of vitamins and minerals, and probably be hungry a lot because cake isn’t very satiating. But they would lose and be doing the things that are important to getting a good physique-the presence of cake in the diet doesn’t negate that.
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ryanfoley74 wrote: »I always thought that if you were doughy to start and you dropped weight, you will still be doughy just a smaller version. So, if you track your macros, as opposed to just Calories In Calories Out, you can build muscle while burning fat. I would assume if your calories daily consumption consists of 1K calories of birthday cake, even with burning 1.1K calories in the gym, you will not get the aesthetics you desire. But if your calories come from lean protein and such, your physique will improve more with your gym work.
Am I looking at this the wrong way? Is my logic flawed?
I think maybe just not very nuanced.
I started out very doughy, lost a good bit of weight (50lbs +/-), and turned out to have a tiny nice bit of li'l ol' lady muscles underneath. That depends on what you were doing while fat. (I'd been active/athletic for over a decade, but eating enough to hold onto the doughy overlay).
Nutrition is important for best health (of course) and some (especially protein) for best effect on muscle.
There are some nutrients in cake. Make it one with walnuts and a rich cream cheese frosting, with a multi-egg sponge cake, and the nutrients may not be as vile as you'd assume. Some gym activities have more aesthetic or calorie benefits than others. From the overall thrust of your post, I assume you mean mostly weight training, but that's not the only muscle builder (it's the most efficient, for sure), and if those gym cals were pure cardio - if there is such a thing ), you might not have much aesthetic impact beyond thinness.
But sure, get good nutrition, and do a sensible mix of exercise, for best health and aesthetic results. (But don't assume calorie counting inherently means ignoring macros, any more than macro counting means you ignore calories.)0 -
ryanfoley74 wrote: »I always thought that if you were doughy to start and you dropped weight, you will still be doughy just a smaller version. So, if you track your macros, as opposed to just Calories In Calories Out, you can build muscle while burning fat. I would assume if your calories daily consumption consists of 1K calories of birthday cake, even with burning 1.1K calories in the gym, you will not get the aesthetics you desire. But if your calories come from lean protein and such, your physique will improve more with your gym work.
Am I looking at this the wrong way? Is my logic flawed?
I know guys in the gym who have no idea of what their macro ratios are who have incredible physiques...they eat well and train, but they don't have a clue how their macros are broken down. I haven't logged in years and have no idea what my macro breakdown is...I'm a bit fluffy right now, but that's because I've been indulging in winter yuminess and haven't done much exercise wise the past few months due to injury.0
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