Frustrated, even furious
Replies
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Had lots of medical test recently - all very good, including thyroid, except that little fibroid they found in May (about 1.5 cm) which started the scare. I know many women have fibroids but I am a bit of a hypochondriac and I always think of the worst when I hear about possible health problems.
Before that (May), I was eating a lot, mainly stress-based due to harried life. Now it's still harried but I am trying to pace myself and control the stress with relaxation, exercise, the jazz.
Since May, I have been eating controlled, consciously, usually below saturation point and I lost 29 pounds. MY estimation is I have been doing around 1200 cal a day (this is how much it was when I was logging a little in the beginning).
It IS POSSIBLE that I may be eating below 1200 some days and this is what gives me the hunger. Then again, there are days when I know for sure I eat more than 1200. So it just varies.
Someone very nice sent me an article in private about taking breaks in dieting. It was really interesting and it makes sense.
Maybe I am just due for one.Have you considered you may have a medical condition which inhibits your progress? My Doctor found my Thyroid was under performing. When this happens your body does operate effectively, which can leave to tired and cause you to not lose weight. When I got on medication for the Thyroid problem I was able to start losing.
After a very good blood work up where I showed I was back to the low side of normal I ask my Doctor to let me decrease the dosage. WRONG WRONG WRONG. I wound up real tired and even though I really upped my exercise and watch my food I could not lose weight. When I went back on the original dosage the weight cam off and my energy levels went up.
Bottom line if your in a holding pattern see a Doctor to see if you have medical handicap. Especially the Thyroid. It may be small, but it can make a big difference.0 -
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I am just want to be a normal person.
Normal people have their bodies regulated, they eat until they are not hungry anymore, they don't gain any weight and they never log.
You can't just will yourself in to having appropriate hunger signals. Most of us that end up on this site don't have them. You count calories, lose the weight, get to maintenance, and THEN you work on developing intuitive eating. People that intuitively eat don't eat at a calorie deficit...how could you?
THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE SUDDENLY!! Whre is my lightbulb emoticon!! :laugh: Your body isn't going to intuitively tell you to eat at a deficit!! I don't know why this has hit me like a lightening bolt but it did!! Your so smart!!
OP- COunt calories!! I am a busy professional mom, as well. I have 4 kids, a full time job, teach SUnday School, small group meets at my house on Wednesdays, and until recently, I was on the School board. I MADE time to log calories! 5 x a week, I get up at 4:45 to walk my 3 dogs and my best friend!
I go to the gym 3x a week to lift weights. I do cardio (elliptical or turbofire) 2x a week. It is taking me forever to lose but, until this summer, I was consistently losing. I know what my problem is now because I log everything! So I know its my own fault! Make time for yourself! No excuses!
Good luck!! Perserverance is key!0 -
Also all the passive-aggressive rude people on here addressing the poster indirectly and calling her 'insane'. STOP.
Play nice.
Excuse me, but I am going to need to see your internet police badge before I take orders. For my safety as well as yours.
I don't have a badge, but I do have a sexy cop uniform. Does that count?0 -
I'm done.
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Also all the passive-aggressive rude people on here addressing the poster indirectly and calling her 'insane'. STOP.
Play nice.
Excuse me, but I am going to need to see your internet police badge before I take orders. For my safety as well as yours.
I don't have a badge, but I do have a sexy cop uniform. Does that count?
Close enough for me! :blushing:0 -
HEY GUYZ!
I AM DOING SOMETHING THAT IS NOT REALLY WORKING FOR ME, BUT I DON'T WANT TO LISTEN TO ANY OF YOUR SUGGESTIONS! CAN YOU PLEASE GIVE ME A WAY TO GET THE RESULTS I WANT BY ONLY DOING IT THE WAY I WANT TO DO IT? THANKS!
I think the best course of action is to have somebody come into your home, feed you your EXACT BMR via a nasal drip so you don't have to contend with the pesky notion of eating adequately, and strap you up with some ab belts, a few muscle-toning pads and put you to sleep on a weight-loss vibration plate.
In 3 weeks, and not a day less or more, you will be an absolute adonis, in perfect health, with full control over your hunger pangs and an unimaginable level of physical strength that would make Batman weep and Superman jealous.0 -
HEY GUYZ!
I AM DOING SOMETHING THAT IS NOT REALLY WORKING FOR ME, BUT I DON'T WANT TO LISTEN TO ANY OF YOUR SUGGESTIONS! CAN YOU PLEASE GIVE ME A WAY TO GET THE RESULTS I WANT BY ONLY DOING IT THE WAY I WANT TO DO IT? THANKS!
I think the best course of action is to have somebody come into your home, feed you your EXACT BMR via a nasal drip so you don't have to contend with the pesky notion of eating adequately, and strap you up with some ab belts, a few muscle-toning pads and put you to sleep on a weight-loss vibration plate.
In 3 weeks, and not a day less or more, you will be an absolute adonis, in perfect health, with full control over your hunger pangs and an unimaginable level of physical strength that would make Batman weep and Superman jealous.
OMG TAKE MY MONEY!!
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LOLNow I eat intuitively, and I eat when hungry and stop when full.
This is what I am talking about. Eating healthy and INTUITIVELY. NOW someone is getting it, finally!!! :-)
Geez, what have people been doing for thousands of years without the tools on this forum?... and the suckers were rarely, if ever, overweight.
I want to eat just like they were - intuitively, when hungry, stopping when decently full, NOT logging, and NOT putting on weight.
Too much to ask?0 -
Recipe entry...calorie counting...heck, tying shoelaces...
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Recipe entry...calorie counting...heck, tying shoelaces...
:laugh: In the time that the OP followed this thread, she could've logged in her food for a week.0 -
Much easier to curse the darkness.0
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It is hard for me to keep a food journal because I eat a variety of foods and I just simply don't have time to record.
That line right there is wrong in every way.
We ALL eat a variety of food. We are all busy living lives and have other things to do, but we make our health a priority.
Not trying to be mean, just honest. So I'm just gonna say it. Plain and simple. You don't want it bad enough. Done.0 -
It's probably harder for some than for others, and who knows what would happen if you started logging, or raised calories as some have suggested, but if it were me I would just continue doing what has already been working for you, and resign myself to the fact that yes, it's going to be difficult the whole time. Most things in life that are worth having are hard work. Maintaining my weight is hard for me too, I'm in the same boat as you are where I never eat till I'm totally full and pass up many things that would taste good because if I eat them, I'll probably gain weight. If I have a day where I slip up, usually I'm up 2 lbs the next day (which is usually water weight and goes away pretty quick if I get back on track). Sometimes I wish it were easier, but mostly I welcome the challenge.
You probably nailed it here. Thank you for bringing me back to reality.
So the advice you do want to listen to is "keep doing exactly what you've been doing," even though the vast majority of feedback you've gotten suggests that you need to rethink your approach, and you yourself cannot stand what you're doing after experiencing it only a relatively short time?
The best advice I can give you doesn't have to do anything with diet, exercise, or calorie counting.
I believe you would greatly benefit from openly listening to people's feedback and thoughtfully considering it for a while without immediately arguing why it won't work for you.
Cultivating a little patience would go a long way.
If you can't do that, I think you are going to struggle greatly in achieving and maintaining additional progress, because you are setting some very big and unnecessary obstacles in your own way. It doesn't have to be like this.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that's exactly what she wants - a whole slew of responses telling her what she's doing is right. I don't know if it's justification to herself or somebody else, but if she got those responses she wouldn't have to put in the work & could just wonder why nothing works for her.....0 -
OP; pardon me for saying so, but you seem a bit resentful about the work that goes into losing weight.
It's work when you haven't found the right method for you.
I would suggest you keep looking for alternatives to counting calories since it's not something you seem to be keen on.
Something like Weight Watchers maybe?...Vegetarianism?....Veganism?.....Fruitarian?......Flexitarian?
There are tons of ways to lose weight but if counting calories isn't for you (it's not for me either, I don't do it) then it behooves you to find another method or adjust your idea of success.
Somehow though, I have a gut feeling that you're just not ready yet. :ohwell:
ETA: maybe start some research online or at the library in the meantime to learn a bit more about different methods.
There's also 'intuitive eating' too....0 -
OMG TAKE MY MONEY!!
I'm setting up a website as we speak. I'll start you off with a low-low monthly payment of 39.99, and decrease it to 19.99 after a year for loyalty, but only if you buy my branded products.
I have pink sparkly nasal drips that do loop-de-loops like a crazy straw. It makes not eating fun!!0 -
It is hard for me to keep a food journal because I eat a variety of foods and I just simply don't have time to record. Plus it makes everything so obsessive and focused on weight loss that it messes me up, given that I do have an addictive peronality.
1. I eat a lot of different foods and manage to log them all.
2. For the first couple of weeks of logging, I was obsessed as well. It cleared itself up as it started to become routine.
Stop making excuses and do what successful people are telling you works.
Also, instantly gaining 2 lbs is water weight unless you ate an extra 7000 calories in one day.0 -
But... I like *blue* sparklies! When is somebody going to find me a way that works for *ME*?!I have pink sparkly nasal drips that do loop-de-loops like a crazy straw. It makes not eating fun!!0 -
Thank you for posting this! I am saving this, because I see it with alarming frequency. Like there's something magical about Indian food as compared to the rest of the world's cuisine. I mean, apart from being extra crazy delicious, of course!:laugh:also - eating ethnic food is as terrible excuse to not log. I am Indian and i eat a lot of obscure foods that aren't in the database. The thing is, the ingredients ARE. So, you use the recipe builder to construct what you're eating.
Yes. Trini gyal here and I just don't get why Indian food is such a mystery to folks when logging or building recipes0 -
I am just want to be a normal person.
Normal people have their bodies regulated, they eat until they are not hungry anymore, they don't gain any weight and they never log.
I read a lot about the CR method - namely, always eating a little below your level of saturation.
This is something that can be done by listening to your stomach and that does not need daily logging - which for me is incredibly taxing, time-wise.
Caveat: my friends would probably say I'm not a "normal" person, but here's my two cents anyway
When I give my body what it *needs* on a regular basis, most days that's enough food and at least I don't feel hungry. It took some getting used to, but you've been at this long enough to know your body isn't getting used to it. When I log, I eat for nutrition. I do spend a lot of time logging, partly because I'm trying to balance my macros, but partly because I'm trying to get as much food as possible out of my calories. If I eat according to my stomach, I gain weight -- after so many years of emotional eating, my stomach just doesn't seem to have my long-term health in mind
I'm also 5'7" but am only now down to 180 lbs, and my nutritionist still has me at 1750 calories per day (plus eating back exercise calories) with 30% from fat, 20% from protein and 50% from carbs (and I love my carbs, so when I'm emotional, that's hard to stick to!). I'm only losing weight at about 1 pound per week, but over 56 weeks later, I'm very pleased with the results.
I know there are some people who really find it hard to eat more, but if you're hungry all the time, then that should tell you something. It's definitely possible to eat clean, eat more and lose weight from where you're at, but as someone already pointed out, the less you have left to lose, the longer it takes to get there.
This is a great clean eating blog http://www.thegraciouspantry.com/ and I can usually build 500+ calorie meals from her recipes, especially once I add a salad or glass of milk to my meal. Eating more to lose weight takes a leap of faith, but a lot of people on here have done it with success. Have you searched the forums for some of their experiences? I seem to remember there being a thread of success stories at some point.
The point is, what do you want more: eating you can stick with for life to ultimately get you to a weight you're happy with, or to be hungry all the time but skinny? It sounds like that's the decision your frustration has brought you to, and I think once you answer that question truthfully, you'll know what to do next.0 -
Thank you for posting this! I am saving this, because I see it with alarming frequency. Like there's something magical about Indian food as compared to the rest of the world's cuisine. I mean, apart from being extra crazy delicious, of course!:laugh:also - eating ethnic food is as terrible excuse to not log. I am Indian and i eat a lot of obscure foods that aren't in the database. The thing is, the ingredients ARE. So, you use the recipe builder to construct what you're eating.
Yes. Trini gyal here and I just don't get why Indian food is such a mystery to folks when logging or building recipes
Seriously. Someone post some recipes so we can all at least get something out of this thread. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on anything over some good eats.0 -
If you're so busy you don't have time to tie your shoes, you need to step back and take a look at your priorities. You can keep trying to do everything for everyone, but pretty soon you won't be able to do anything for anyone. Delegate, cut some stuff out temporarily, or rearrange your schedule a little bit. I know what it's like to have yourself spread so thin that you barely have time to sleep. In college, between classes, two jobs, and studying, I set aside time for 1 meal a day and 6 hours max to sleep. It was not an ideal situation. Don't wear yourself down so much that you can't do anything at all. Take care of you for a while!
As for counting calories, that has been the best thing for me. I tried for a while to say that I would stay between 1300-1500 calories and just do quick math in my head. But I wasn't adding in everything, nor was I paying attention to portions. Result? Gaining even more weight and becoming sad that I'd never again wear my skinny pants. I started logging and realized I was eating way more than I thought. I don't get on several times throughout the day to log each thing I eat. I do it early in the morning after my workout, but before I leave for work. It takes me about 5-10 minutes to plan out my whole day of meals and snacks. That way you'll have an idea of what is going on as opposed to just guessing and then wondering why you're not getting results. You can always make changes at the end of the day if necessary.
Others have mentioned, and I agree, using the recipe builder. You have to only put a recipe in one time, and then it'll always be there when you want to use it rather than listing each ingredient individually and calculating how much of that ingredient you're ingesting.
Good luck to you.0 -
Thank you for posting this! I am saving this, because I see it with alarming frequency. Like there's something magical about Indian food as compared to the rest of the world's cuisine. I mean, apart from being extra crazy delicious, of course!:laugh:also - eating ethnic food is as terrible excuse to not log. I am Indian and i eat a lot of obscure foods that aren't in the database. The thing is, the ingredients ARE. So, you use the recipe builder to construct what you're eating.
Yes. Trini gyal here and I just don't get why Indian food is such a mystery to folks when logging or building recipes
Seriously. Someone post some recipes so we can all at least get something out of this thread. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on anything over some good eats.
If anyone really want recipes, friend me or PM me. Indian food, cooked homestyle, is super healthy. Lots of protein, legumes, vegetables, spices...I cook in olive oil, not ghee, and rarely use cream. If all Indians ate naan and chicken tikka masala every day, we'd have died out by now.0 -
Thank you for posting this! I am saving this, because I see it with alarming frequency. Like there's something magical about Indian food as compared to the rest of the world's cuisine. I mean, apart from being extra crazy delicious, of course!:laugh:also - eating ethnic food is as terrible excuse to not log. I am Indian and i eat a lot of obscure foods that aren't in the database. The thing is, the ingredients ARE. So, you use the recipe builder to construct what you're eating.
Yes. Trini gyal here and I just don't get why Indian food is such a mystery to folks when logging or building recipes
Seriously. Someone post some recipes so we can all at least get something out of this thread. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on anything over some good eats.
Ya got a point there 0 -
If you are looking for other ideas beside calorie counting then....why ask MFP? It's a calorie counting website. you'd do better to try forums that aren't based on a calorie counting tool.
To be honest, I was under the impression this was more like a place of support for people who are trying to lose weight, get in shape, and be healthy, generally speaking - regardless of the specific method they use to reach these goals.
I did not realize it had a "religious cult" dimension and that only those who zealously log their food intake every day can participate.
I respectfully specified from the beginning that calorie counting doesn't work for me, personally. This should certainly not give people license to assume that anyone for whom calorie logging doesn't work is "lazy", "stubborn" or just all-around an "unreasonable" person. Neither should people assume that just because their schedule and family structure appears to be largely the same with someone else's, that means they are equally busy. Despite all of us being generally busy nowadays, there are incredibly variations in the amount of "business" and pressures each of us deals with.
FOR ME - and again, I emphasize FOR ME!! - calorie counting is not just unpractical and time consuming (yes, I have tried it on this very site and it is very time consuming), but also psychologically unhealthy. I do not want to obsess over a specific "food journey" or "weight loss" journey every day.
I want to adjust my eating habit to a point where I eat healthy, I lose all the weight I need to lose, then I just maintain - without thinking much about it.
Do I expect to be able to stuff my face with pizza and cake all day without giving it a thought - and maintain a healthy weight? Obviously not.
But this where common sense steps in.
If this is, in fact, how you really feel then I'll try 1 last time - I log daily & there are times I guesstimate what's in something. Many times I pick something close enough & call it a day. I do NOT obsess over exact calorie #'s, I log to keep track of what I'm eating. It keeps me on top of what I'm having & how often - many times I either don't have a snack (because it makes me realize I'm noshing more because I'm bored) or I take a moment to grab something healthier. It's awareness we're trying to point out to you, not having to be a super strict counter (unless that works for you, there are plenty of people it does work for).
Nobody's journey will be the same, that's why there are different responses here - you need to sift through them to cull out what works for you. I know you don't see it this way, but every time somebody gave you advice you blew it off. That DOES label you as stubborn & obstinate, & the way you are saying you just won't do things that are not that time consuming does paint you as lazy - everybody here knows just how long it takes to log. You were given advice on how to make that process easier (load in your common recipes & add them to your diary from there instead of logging each ingredient every time you have it, use the phone app to add during the times you're not home, etc.).
People are really aggravated because you came here & specifically asked for help but have blown off everything suggested because it's not what you want to hear. None of us want to count calories, log food, log exercise, etc., but if we want to reach a goal it needs to be done. I have nobody but me to blame for being in the shape I'm in & I'm the only 1 who's gonna get me back - I don't like it, but it's a fact. That leaves me only 2 choices - do something about it to get healthy or wait for all the weight related disorders to catch up to me. Personally, I'm making time to do what I need to because I want to get to a certain point. If you want to achieve your goal bad enough you'll stop with the excuses & get to work...0 -
Well congratulations OP. You managed to get everyone that consistently/constantly argues with each other to actually agree on something and pretty much in the same way. wow!0
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None of us want to count calories, log food, log exercise, etc., but if we want to reach a goal it needs to be done.
Good post Mac. Just wanted to say I enjoy tracking my life. We're at an enlightened age where we can control with a high degree of certainty what's going on with our bodies - losing, gaining, building, whatever. It's fascinating stuff.
I can understand some people don't feel the same way. Maybe they see tracking as a chore. That's ok too. It's just kinda funny to have this amazing tool available, choose not to use it, then get frustrated.0 -
I DO eat a lot of things that aren't in the database. I did track very briefly on this forum in the beginning and it was not something that I wanted to continue doing. Very time consuming for me.
I am not American born and raised and I cook many recipes learned from my mother and grandmother - many adapted to be low in calories (less fat, salt, never sugar). There will be no such dishes in the database - only approximations - which I can do with my own eye balling.
I also sometimes graze just a little bit throughout the day given that I am restraining myself so much with the portions at meal times. Could be a few almonds, flax crackers or a fruit, or a little taste when I cook, etc;
so trying to track all these little bitty things would drive me up the wall.
I DO eat a lot of things that aren't in the database. I did track very briefly on this forum in the beginning and it was not something that I wanted to continue doing. Very time consuming for me.
I am not American born and raised and I cook many recipes learned from my mother and grandmother - many adapted to be low in calories (less fat, salt, never sugar). There will be no such dishes in the database - only approximations - which I can do with my own eye balling.
I also sometimes graze just a little bit throughout the day given that I am restraining myself so much with the portions at meal times. Could be a few almonds, flax crackers or a fruit, or a little taste when I cook, etc;
so trying to track all these little bitty things would drive me up the wall.
I see where you're coming from with the way your recipes don't appear as 'Ready Meals' in the food database. Like you I am not American and cook almost everything from scratch. I eat a very healthy range of foods in fact but have been overweight for too long. However I would guess that like me you also have a number of meals you eat fairly frequently - and Snacks too. I understand that you don't have a lot of time to enter your meals each day but bear with me just now for a bit because the suggestion a bit further down makes our situation a breeze.... I'm over-worked too so I like to make my time work better for me!
I really know the frustration of being overweight when you're trying to do everything right. I've researched diet and nutrition exhaustively as a result of the same issues - and research is my profession. All the diet research you'll read or schemes you hear about have one major link: the people who succeed at losing weight long-term are the ones that set specific targets and then keep a daily record of what they do. That is the real secret ingredient in every single successful diet plan you encounter, no matter what mix of foods or exercise they tell you to try. Record your habits and be guided by them. But like I said I'm rushed (and a bit lazy!) and just can't be fussed to keep a pen and paper on me or count calories, so please don't judge me too harshly for my 'lazygirl tips' :
When I've cooked a meal and I'm just taking a minute or two after dinner - to digest the food and remind my stomach that YES I am full now like it or not - I go to the 'Recipes' tab and add a new meal (or choose one of my regulars that I've added before). I can find and click on pretty much all the basic ingredients I've used such as Celery, Mince packs (from all the major food stores in the UK too) herbs etc and anything else you might commonly use.
This makes life so easy because you can tell the Recipe wizard how many people at your dinner table ate all these ingredients between them, and it just works out the 'Per Portion' calories etc for you. No maths - just quantities like 3 lots of 1 carrot and half a cup of mushrooms or 9 x 1 thick slice of tomato - it's all on there ready for you in all kinds of measurement options that don't require a weighing scale at all - I never use 'em. So after five minutes' setup time I can just choose 1 Portion from X recipe every single time I need to from then on. 5 minutes while I let my food go down, and I'm done forever.
Similarly, if I often have a handful of raisins, or a Jaffa Cake, with my mid-morning cup of tea, I just 'Remember' the combination from the Add Meals menu and from then on it's literally two clicks to add that forever after. I do that with all kinds of things like sandwiches and salads etc that I'm eating alone., often while I'm actually eating them because it helps me slow down while I'm eating my lunch and helps me decide whether to go with a lighter or heavier option for dinner based on my day so far. Double-bonus.
In terms of managing your hunger: Cinnamon with Chromium Picolinate work wonders and are also fab for preventing Diabetes anyway. But you probably have a bigger health problem brewing if you've been restricting your food intake so drastically for so long and if you carry on that way you will permanently feel hungry all the time **regardless of how much you eat**..... And you'll likely get ill more and more often. And tired and cranky with your family :-)
Use the Food Log to check that the reason you're hungry isn't because the *balance* of food types you're eating aren't leaving you with these cravings - too high Carbs vs Protein or vice-versa, not enough essential Fats etc. - you may be eating absolutely tons of food that still leave you malnourished because you're too low in one specific area and your body is desperately trying to fix that by eating anything in reach even if it won't help. It might actually turn out your restricted intake is missing a fat-soluble vitamin or a micro-nutrient and you're feeling madly starved just for the lack of that little thing - which is why the 'See all Nutrients' list across a week is really revealing, if you actually *log your foods*.
The other trick in a hurry is - when you are hungry, actually sniff different foods rather than just trying your normal comfort option to shut up your stomach. Women commonly do that by instinct when pregnant... It's handy! But there are all kinds of cravings that are weirdly connected to specific nutrients - eating ice is often iron deficiency; craving vinegar might mean you're low on magnesium. Our stomachs just aren't that clever but a bit of olfactory guidance might help if you don't have your nutrient list with you. Low calorie diets like yours tend to create all kinds of deficiencies and therefore food cravings, much like a growing baby does :-) So using your food log and your nose together can help you eat *smarter* to prevent that happening.
On days when I want to save a bit of my calorie balance for a treat, I find high fibre vegetables or pulses will make meals much more filling. Today 3 hours on from dinner I'm still totally stuffed, because I've smuggled a TON of vegetables into my bolognese sauce, my food balance for the day is very close to the guides on the Food Log and I keep tabs on my nutrient list - if I've gone most of a week low on something, I just tailor a meal to fill in the gaps.
I've kept track of my meals so it turns out the veggies worked and I've actually got 500 calories left in my allowance for today so far: No hunger, no cravings at all. I know it's important not to go into starvation mode too often, but at this rate, that cupcake I've promised myself is going to end up a midnight treat! I've earned it though and I'll be eating it for sure :-)
Dieting without recording regularly like this just never really works. I'm serious - eat a pound of this or ten pounds of that every day for x number of days, or only eat this colour food or those types of points, restrict calories today and reward yourself with a binge tomorrow - whatever set of restrictions you find appealing. **It will never make a genuine difference unless you record it every day** ... Though you could create serious health issues along the way. Because we're human and we increasingly guess and get fluffy on details, or lose motivation, or forget to track our successes and learn from them. Or forget to eat a balanced and complete diet and put our whole metabolism into freefall.
That's why I've resorted to MyFitness Pal, because I can complete a daily diary without writing anything down, in a matter of moments, it does all the maths stuff for me and shows me my progress, just like Weight Watchers et al, but without the stupid, pointless, rules and time and intrusion.0 -
Well congratulations OP. You managed to get everyone that consistently/constantly argues with each other to actually agree on something and pretty much in the same way. wow!
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Well congratulations OP. You managed to get everyone that consistently/constantly argues with each other to actually agree on something and pretty much in the same way. wow!
Yea. We'll all be thrashing each other again in no time, but for now, group hug! :bigsmile:
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