Strength training vs physio protocol?
lorrpb
Posts: 11,463 Member
Question. When strength training we are told not to train the same muscle group 2 days in a row to allow for proper recovery etc. But when getting physio you work the same muscles every day (in my case shoulder), the same exercises as you might do in a formal workout, and basically the same or greater volume for the weights used. No days off.
So why must you allow rest days when working out but not when doing PT? You’re basically putting your muscles unde the same stress in both situations so I would think similar recovery would be needed.
The goal of the PT program is to strengthen certain specific muscles. I’m doing over 200 combined reps of 7-8 shoulder exercises every day (@2x15). Hope that makes sense. Thanks for any helpful thoughts.
So why must you allow rest days when working out but not when doing PT? You’re basically putting your muscles unde the same stress in both situations so I would think similar recovery would be needed.
The goal of the PT program is to strengthen certain specific muscles. I’m doing over 200 combined reps of 7-8 shoulder exercises every day (@2x15). Hope that makes sense. Thanks for any helpful thoughts.
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Replies
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Probably a good question for your PT. My thinking would be that your lifting routine is meant to reach complete muscle fatigue while daily routines are for overall conditioning. You could certainly have a daily routine that works great for you but you wouldn’t max out because that would prohibit you from being effective the following day.
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Question. When strength training we are told not to train the same muscle group 2 days in a row to allow for proper recovery etc. But when getting physio you work the same muscles every day (in my case shoulder), the same exercises as you might do in a formal workout, and basically the same or greater volume for the weights used. No days off.
So why must you allow rest days when working out but not when doing PT? You’re basically putting your muscles unde the same stress in both situations so I would think similar recovery would be needed.
The goal of the PT program is to strengthen certain specific muscles. I’m doing over 200 combined reps of 7-8 shoulder exercises every day (@2x15). Hope that makes sense. Thanks for any helpful thoughts.
Like was said, this would be a good question for your PT (physical therapist). I would ask one of mine but I don't have another appointment until next month. I would note that there are times my PTs will say not to do an exercise every day but rather something like three days a week. Not all PT is the same, which I suspect I don't have to tell you. That's both in terms of the amount of weight you're moving and what you're actually doing. Stretching every day is different than doing band exercises for your rotator cuff, is different than doing unweighted leg lifts, is different than doing glute bridges, is different than doing leg press.
When I was doing the weight room like exercises for my knee PT it was a two to three days a week situation. When I was doing unweighted leg lifts in an attempt to not have my glutes "shut down" after knee surgery (I was non-weight bearing) it was multiple times a day every day (and I was bored out of my mind). My current shoulder exercises are 2 sets of 10-15 reps.2 -
When I broke my greater tuberosity and it finally healed enough to start PT they had me doing band work and very light weights at moderate rep ranges on a daily basis.
They did call it “strength work” but compared to my actual lifting routines? You can’t compare very light shoulder mobility strength exercises to the kind of weights I move for actual strength training and bodybuilding. I could recover in 12-24 hours with the stuff they had me doing. I need two days minimum for my normal programming. The weight on the bar is dramatically different.1 -
jseams1234 wrote: »When I broke my greater tuberosity and it finally healed enough to start PT they had me doing band work and very light weights at moderate rep ranges on a daily basis.
They did call it “strength work” but compared to my actual lifting routines? You can’t compare very light shoulder mobility strength exercises to the kind of weights I move for actual strength training and bodybuilding. I could recover in 12-24 hours with the stuff they had me doing. I need two days minimum for my normal programming. The weight on the bar is dramatically different.
Agreed. Heck the weight of the bar itself is dramatically different.1 -
When I’ve done PT, exercises to do every day were intended to keep/increase range of motion, prevent atrophy/scar tissue, some restoration of strength - but not really a workout. Nothing I did daily was at a level where extended recovery was required.
The exercises felt difficult due to lack of ROM, some loss of strength/coordination, scar tissue, etc. but nothing was breaking down muscles to the point that they needed full days off.
When things did reach a point where things were more like a “workout level” for the muscles involved (meaning enough stress to cause muscle breakdown-requiring recovery) - I was only supposed to do those things 3 times a week.
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My current rehab is mostly about restoring normal movement patterns and stretching to restore full ROM.
Although there is an element of strength gain as a byproduct it's vastly different to my strength training and strength is definitely not the primary focus. It's not the same stress at all.
Previous rehab to overcome major muscle atrophy was every day to get the muscles working again - alot of that was to do with restoring my nervous system to the muscles back to normal rather than directly muscle building. Recovery wasn't an issue, muscles need recovery from significant stress but they don't always need rest for recovery.0 -
If your regular workout is high rep, low weight, it's not doing a whole lot.0
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The PT routine is not really doing anything?0
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Depends - passive motion is often required to obtain joint flexibility - now when it comes to weights I actually work my body parts 4 times a week - I have my normal HV or HW day depending on what cycle I'm in but the following day I will work that muscle group again with is very light High Reps - 3 sets of 20 to keep the protein synthesis and hypertrophy up -0
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I don't know much about physio, but I would imagine it is not the same as pushing your muscles as you would in weight lifting despite increasing your volume. However, you actually can work the same muscles two days in a row, it really depends on your programming, your load and volume as well as muscles worked. I have run programs in the past where I was working glutes 5-6x per week (they can handle it and don't need a lot of time to recover), obviously not going hard and heavy each day. Also the program I am doing right now it is meant to run two days back to back (working the same muscles) followed by a rest day. It really depends on your goals and how you are working the muscle.1
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I am going to second what everyone else is saying.
Athletes generally work the same muscles day after day, without a day off in between.
I think the difference is muscle building. The admonition to take a day off in between comes from body building. I'm going to guess rest is less relevant if you are not trying to make your muscles bigger.
Tennis players train on consecutive days. Heck, during tournaments, they often practice in the morning when they have a match in the evening.
Professional runners often run twice a day, most days in a week.
I know I can get tired, and it hurts my performance. But if that much training was detrimental, those professionals would have figured that out.0 -
Thanks for your thoughts. Of course I’ll ask my PT. But PTs don’t necessarily know about gym routines so thought I’d get your perspective too.0
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Thanks for your thoughts. Of course I’ll ask my PT. But PTs don’t necessarily know about gym routines so thought I’d get your perspective too.
While some PTs might not know about gym routines (all of mine have, but almost all of my PTs have been athletes and most of mine have worked extensively with elite athletes), they do know more about anatomy and physiology than the vast majority of people.3 -
I did physical therapy a couple of years ago for my back spasms...it was nowhere near what my gym routine would be. It was nowhere near a load that would require any significant recovery time. It was mostly light band work and various stretching exercises.GiddyupTim wrote: »I am going to second what everyone else is saying.
Athletes generally work the same muscles day after day, without a day off in between.
I think the difference is muscle building. The admonition to take a day off in between comes from body building. I'm going to guess rest is less relevant if you are not trying to make your muscles bigger.
Tennis players train on consecutive days. Heck, during tournaments, they often practice in the morning when they have a match in the evening.
Professional runners often run twice a day, most days in a week.
I know I can get tired, and it hurts my performance. But if that much training was detrimental, those professionals would have figured that out.
I know a handful of professional athletes and they don't train hard everyday. They train in a variety of intensity levels, including very easy efforts for recovery. Holy Holm takes off an entire month from training after a fight and only does light recovery work for that month.0 -
There is nothing wrong with training same muscles back to back days. For strength train as you mentioned specifically, It's more common than not and actually pretty difficult not to for most goals.
I would seem it suboptimal to say the least if you're running a LP template that requires you to add weight every session without any auto regulation to the same muscles groups.
When we are talking about a template that is intelligently written, we take into account lifts that primarily utilize a combination of smaller muscles such as shpulders. Since more muscles are needed to perform a lift , we can account for a faster recovery than lets say bigger muscles like quads that need a bit more recovery planned because they fatigue more as a whole.
Personally I wish more PT's were more educated on training. For me at least it was comical how rehab is accessed, dosed, not to mention the choice of exercises, intensities, and volume.4 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »I did physical therapy a couple of years ago for my back spasms...it was nowhere near what my gym routine would be. It was nowhere near a load that would require any significant recovery time. It was mostly light band work and various stretching exercises.GiddyupTim wrote: »I am going to second what everyone else is saying.
Athletes generally work the same muscles day after day, without a day off in between.
I think the difference is muscle building. The admonition to take a day off in between comes from body building. I'm going to guess rest is less relevant if you are not trying to make your muscles bigger.
Tennis players train on consecutive days. Heck, during tournaments, they often practice in the morning when they have a match in the evening.
Professional runners often run twice a day, most days in a week.
I know I can get tired, and it hurts my performance. But if that much training was detrimental, those professionals would have figured that out.
I know a handful of professional athletes and they don't train hard everyday. They train in a variety of intensity levels, including very easy efforts for recovery. Holy Holm takes off an entire month from training after a fight and only does light recovery work for that month.
I didn't say "hard." But, define 'hard'? That's kind of my point. Maybe if you lift heavy weight, to failure, so that microtears (or whatever happens) occurs, so that you will build muscle mass when it repairs, rest days to let the muscle heal are more important.
As I said, many professional runners run 10 times a week, including a long run (over 10 miles) and gym sessions. I would think that if their running was suffering because of this, they would know.
Don't they need rest? Of course they do, and I am sure they take it periodically. But I do think it suggests that there is nothing paradigmatic about giving a body part a day off -- or taking a day off -- during training.0 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I did physical therapy a couple of years ago for my back spasms...it was nowhere near what my gym routine would be. It was nowhere near a load that would require any significant recovery time. It was mostly light band work and various stretching exercises.GiddyupTim wrote: »I am going to second what everyone else is saying.
Athletes generally work the same muscles day after day, without a day off in between.
I think the difference is muscle building. The admonition to take a day off in between comes from body building. I'm going to guess rest is less relevant if you are not trying to make your muscles bigger.
Tennis players train on consecutive days. Heck, during tournaments, they often practice in the morning when they have a match in the evening.
Professional runners often run twice a day, most days in a week.
I know I can get tired, and it hurts my performance. But if that much training was detrimental, those professionals would have figured that out.
I know a handful of professional athletes and they don't train hard everyday. They train in a variety of intensity levels, including very easy efforts for recovery. Holy Holm takes off an entire month from training after a fight and only does light recovery work for that month.
I didn't say "hard." But, define 'hard'? That's kind of my point. Maybe if you lift heavy weight, to failure, so that microtears (or whatever happens) occurs, so that you will build muscle mass when it repairs, rest days to let the muscle heal are more important.
As I said, many professional runners run 10 times a week, including a long run (over 10 miles) and gym sessions. I would think that if their running was suffering because of this, they would know.
Don't they need rest? Of course they do, and I am sure they take it periodically. But I do think it suggests that there is nothing paradigmatic about giving a body part a day off -- or taking a day off -- during training.
I really don't think comparing recovery for gen pop and elite professional athletes is particularly constructive. Most of them beat their bodies to *kitten* and have issues down the line.1 -
There is nothing wrong with training same muscles back to back days. For strength train as you mentioned specifically, It's more common than not and actually pretty difficult not to for most goals.
I would seem it suboptimal to say the least if you're running a LP template that requires you to add weight every session without any auto regulation to the same muscles groups.
When we are talking about a template that is intelligently written, we take into account lifts that primarily utilize a combination of smaller muscles such as shpulders. Since more muscles are needed to perform a lift , we can account for a faster recovery than lets say bigger muscles like quads that need a bit more recovery planned because they fatigue more as a whole.
Personally I wish more PT's were more educated on training. For me at least it was comical how rehab is accessed, dosed, not to mention the choice of exercises, intensities, and volume.
@Chieflrg what do you mean in bold? Just curious!0 -
Question. When strength training we are told not to train the same muscle group 2 days in a row to allow for proper recovery etc. But when getting physio you work the same muscles every day (in my case shoulder), the same exercises as you might do in a formal workout, and basically the same or greater volume for the weights used. No days off.
So why must you allow rest days when working out but not when doing PT? You’re basically putting your muscles unde the same stress in both situations so I would think similar recovery would be needed.
The goal of the PT program is to strengthen certain specific muscles. I’m doing over 200 combined reps of 7-8 shoulder exercises every day (@2x15). Hope that makes sense. Thanks for any helpful thoughts.
When I was bodybuilding way back when, I was told not to train the same muscle group 2 days in a row because I was working that hard I needed the rest.
When I've done physio, the exercises have been more about mobility, stretching and very minor strength building. I've also never done anywhere near 200 reps a day! Most physios are delighted if you do 10 reps each of a couple different exercises.
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@Chieflrg what do you mean in bold? Just curious!
I experienced a sharp pain in my back at one point in my life. Nothing I didn't experience in life many many times. As evidence suggests now, these things tend to go away on their own in a couple of weeks or so.
I simply experienced some sharp pain. It didn't limit my range of motion or capabilities in life or my job.
They accessed my ability to squat without allowing me to squat. Other normal compound lifts were prohibited as well. I was restricted to I believe 50lbs or less on resistance training with only bands, body weight, and some limited cable work.
I asked why was I not allowed to strength train normally with perhaps a reduced intensity, volume, or frequency. Never got a straight answer though I have a good idea now.
Although pain is not fully understood as a science now or then, current evidence suggests that pain isn't a sign of something wrong or need to fully avoided. Pain can exist without any evidence of something is out of whack because it always roots from the brain first as a protective measure. Sometimes we signal "pain" for unknown reasons.
I should of not pointed the finger at PT's solely, but more at the medical field and insurance companies as a whole on regurgitating out dated "healing or rehab" practices that don't coincide with current evidence of the benefits of training.
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Too much liability in a litigious society to prescribe something effective that may have some minuscule risk involved whether real or imagined. Better to stay out of court than to be effective.
If you want effective rehab you’ll have to assume all the risk for yourself...0 -
Too much liability in a litigious society to prescribe something effective that may have some minuscule risk involved whether real or imagined. Better to stay out of court than to be effective.
If you want effective rehab you’ll have to assume all the risk for yourself...
Or find a good physical therapist, be clear about what your goals are, and do the work. I can't have been all that lucky to have done so more times than not. I'd rather a good physical therapist than go it my own and injure myself. There are also seemingly a lot of PTs who specialize working with athletes. In my experience, the ones who prefer working with athletes are beyond pleased when they get to work with athletes who are motivated and will do their exercises.3
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