Need advice from veterans

tkbuc

Hi everyone,

Below are my key stats. My goal is to lose weight while putting on some muscle. However I am noticing very slow fat loss.

Stats:
Weight: 243lbs
Height: 5’ 10”
Male
36 Years Old

Goal Weight: 190lbs
Goal Loss: 2lbs/week

Based on calculator’s on Bodybuilding.com:
My Resting Metabolic Rate is 2,333 cal/day
My Basal Metabolic Rate is 2,232 kcal/day


MFP calculated my Calories Burned From Normal Daily Activity to be 2550/day which seems pretty accurate to my BMR calculations above. It suggests that I cut 1,000 calories so that I should have a daily goal of 1,550cal/day.

Based on what I am reading, that is a pretty low cal consumption for a male. Does this seem accurate to you veterans?

I also am taking creatine and a protein shake to try and gain muscle while cutting fat. I work out 4-5 days a week and burn anywhere from 400-500 cal (30min elliptical and 30min weights). I am not sure though if I am starting off utilizing the information I am being given. Fat loss has been very slow.

Any thoughts based on your experience?

jwdieter

While you're losing weight, you're intaking protein and strength training in an attempt to retain muscle mass.

As you lose weight, your muscles will become more defined.

When you're at a point where you're satisfied with your body fat level, you can think about moving to a calorie surplus in order to increase muscle mass.

Going to -1000 is pretty severe. Bump it up to -500 if you find you're irritable, tired, etc. and it's impacting your life negatively.

ninerbuff

This is also considering that you don't do anything (not even walk around) all day. The calorie intake goes up when you work and also exercise. Figure out your TDEE and take off 20% from there.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

tkbuc

What is TDEE and how do I calculate that?

Lyadeia

TDEE is Total Daily Energy Expenditure, or basically it is your BMR + daily activities calories burned (everyday walking, etc) + dedicated exercise workouts calories burned. It's all the calories you burn all day long including your exercise.

There are numerous TDEE calculators on the internet. I like this one:

http://iifym.com/tdee-calculator/

But there are many others also. Anyway, just find that number and eat 80% of it to have a moderate deficit for weight loss.

rileyhall00

I've done my TDEE and taken 20% off and with gym 3 times a week i'm losing 1kg~ a week.

Best of luck with your efforts mate and hope you get the results your after.

Cheers,
Riley

ritchiedrama

What Lyadeia said.

And, you ain't gonna build muscle in a caloric deficit,, unless you've never weight trained before.

tkbuc

I guess i'm going for more toning with weights than bulking... Want to have some definition if I achieve the weight loss.

ritchiedrama

I guess i'm going for more toning with weights than bulking... Want to have some definition if I achieve the weight loss.

No such thing as toning with weights. You need to maintain muscle mass and lose fat, that's it.

tkbuc

Ok. I went to http://iifym.com/tdee-calculator/ and utilized the calculator, selecting the Mifflin-St Jeor formula. It states that my BMR is 1850 and my TDEE is 2625. Taking 80% of my TDEE, my Net Caloric intake should be roughly 2100 with exercise included. Is this correct? So if I burn 500 cal/day, I should make up that 500 cal with food so that at the end of the day, I will have eaten 2100?

Sorry, i'm still trying to learn the science behind all of this. Right now I am looking at about a 550 cal/day difference between my TDEE and what MFP recommends.

ninerbuff

Ok. I went to http://iifym.com/tdee-calculator/ and utilized the calculator, selecting the Mifflin-St Jeor formula. It states that my BMR is 1850 and my TDEE is 2625. Taking 80% of my TDEE, my Net Caloric intake should be roughly 2100 with exercise included. Is this correct? So if I burn 500 cal/day, I should make up that 500 cal with food so that at the end of the day, I will have eaten 2100?

Sorry, i'm still trying to learn the science behind all of this. Right now I am looking at about a 550 cal/day difference between my TDEE and what MFP recommends.

TDEE is your total calories burned which includes exercise. So just eat 2100.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

tkbuc

How does TDEE include exercise by just stating how many days you exercise? Wouldn't it very if someone is doing light vs heavy effort? Does it just take an average for that number of days you state you exercise?

_HeartsOnFire_

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/654536-in-place-of-a-road-map-2-0-revised-7-2-12

Read that. It'll explain everything.

Capt_Apollo

How does TDEE include exercise by just stating how many days you exercise? Wouldn't it very if someone is doing light vs heavy effort? Does it just take an average for that number of days you state you exercise?

all TDEE and BMR calculators and food databases are just guesses. you need to do a little research, and a little guessing, and experimenting.

yes, calorie expenditure will be different from a very fit person compared to an over weight person, and vary on intensity... but not as much as you might think. i burned a lot more calories when i was heavier because i had to work harder to move.

my advice is that you look at your TDEE at several levels of exercise, and try remember those numbers. if you set yourself up for say, exercise 5 days a week, and maybe this week you exercised 6 times, and then the next week you only worked out 4 times... well, it balances out, right?

also, know that if you exercised really hard today, you might not be that hungry... but tomorrow you'll want to eat everything. thats okay. your body works more on a week long basis, rather than day-to-day.

erickirb

How does TDEE include exercise by just stating how many days you exercise? Wouldn't it very if someone is doing light vs heavy effort? Does it just take an average for that number of days you state you exercise?

All calculators are just estimates. Try it for 4-6 weeks, if the results are not adequate either increase or decrease cals accordingly.

sijomial

How does TDEE include exercise by just stating how many days you exercise? Wouldn't it very if someone is doing light vs heavy effort? Does it just take an average for that number of days you state you exercise?

There's two main methods in use here:
1/ The MFP way - sets your calorie level to create a deficit you select (lbs/week), includes activity level (lifestyle/job) but excludes exercise. Then when you exercise you estimate the calories burned that day and "eat them back". Some people only back a proportion of their calorie estimates to leave some wiggle room for inaccuracies in calorie estimates.
2/ The TDEE minus a percentage way - includes everything including your estimated exercise calories for the week. You eat a flat amount every day.

Both methods work as they create a calorie deficit so it's personal preference which one suits you better. I prefer the MFP way as my calorie burns vary enormously from day to day and week to week (I cycle a lot...).

With both methods you need to be consistent with logging and estimating and make any adjustments based on actual results over a period of time.

tkbuc

How does TDEE include exercise by just stating how many days you exercise? Wouldn't it very if someone is doing light vs heavy effort? Does it just take an average for that number of days you state you exercise?

There's two main methods in use here:
1/ The MFP way - sets your calorie level to create a deficit you select (lbs/week), includes activity level (lifestyle/job) but excludes exercise. Then when you exercise you estimate the calories burned that day and "eat them back". Some people only back a proportion of their calorie estimates to leave some wiggle room for inaccuracies in calorie estimates.
2/ The TDEE minus a percentage way - includes everything including your estimated exercise calories for the week. You eat a flat amount every day.

Both methods work as they create a calorie deficit so it's personal preference which one suits you better. I prefer the MFP way as my calorie burns vary enormously from day to day and week to week (I cycle a lot...).

With both methods you need to be consistent with logging and estimating and make any adjustments based on actual results over a period of time.

The TDEE-20% calculation for me would be 2300
The MFP calculation for me would be 1550

Given the large variance between the two, is it just a matter of picking one and trying it and adjusting? 1550 seems really low, but that is what MFP suggested since I want to try and loose 2lbs/week.

erickirb

How does TDEE include exercise by just stating how many days you exercise? Wouldn't it very if someone is doing light vs heavy effort? Does it just take an average for that number of days you state you exercise?

There's two main methods in use here:
1/ The MFP way - sets your calorie level to create a deficit you select (lbs/week), includes activity level (lifestyle/job) but excludes exercise. Then when you exercise you estimate the calories burned that day and "eat them back". Some people only back a proportion of their calorie estimates to leave some wiggle room for inaccuracies in calorie estimates.
2/ The TDEE minus a percentage way - includes everything including your estimated exercise calories for the week. You eat a flat amount every day.

Both methods work as they create a calorie deficit so it's personal preference which one suits you better. I prefer the MFP way as my calorie burns vary enormously from day to day and week to week (I cycle a lot...).

With both methods you need to be consistent with logging and estimating and make any adjustments based on actual results over a period of time.

The TDEE-20% calculation for me would be 2300
The MFP calculation for me would be 1550

Given the large variance between the two, is it just a matter of picking one and trying it and adjusting? 1550 seems really low, but that is what MFP suggested since I want to try and loose 2lbs/week.

Yes, but I would also say for the difference to be that large is that you have too aggressive of a weekly weight loss goal embedded in your MFP intake. If you chose to lose 2 lbs/week, change that to 1.5 or even 1, then when you factor exercise your weekly total cals should be close using either method:

As an example say MFP gives you 1450 calories to lose 1 lb/week, and you plan on exercising 5x/week for an average of 400 cals per workout. well MFP will tell you to eat 1450 on the days you don't workout and 1850 on the days you do whereas a "professional" may tell you to eat 1700 everyday regardless if you workout.

So for the week MFP will have you eat 12,150 (1450*2+1850*5) whereas doing it the other way will have you eat 11,900 (1700*7) almost the same number of cals for the week (250 dif). The issue in not following MFP is if you don't workout the full 5 days or burn more or less than planned. If that is the case you may lose more or less than your goal, whereas MFP will have you lose your goal amount regardless how much you actually workout.

What many MFPers do is take the low 1450 and not eat back exercise calories which is wrong, if you are not eating them back then your daily activity level should reflect the higher burn with would be covered in the 1700/day above.

TheEffort

BUMP.

Turnaround2012

Good post for reference

tkbuc

First of all, I want to thank all of you for the personal education. I am learning a ton!

Eric,

I adjusted the MFP goals:

1550 = 2lbs/week
2050 = 1lbs/week
2300 = .5lbs/week

So it seems that the .5lbs/week is closer to my TDEE-20% daily of 2300. To me however, I would like to have at least 1lb/week loss.

sijomial

The TDEE-20% calculation for me would be 2300
The MFP calculation for me would be 1550

Given the large variance between the two, is it just a matter of picking one and trying it and adjusting? 1550 seems really low, but that is what MFP suggested since I want to try and loose 2lbs/week.

Really wouldn't advise trying to lose weight that fast. 1lb a week would be better if you have the patience - you will find it much more sustainable and also much easier to transition from weight/fat loss to maintenance.
Often fast weight loss includes too much loss of lean body mass.

tkbuc

The TDEE-20% calculation for me would be 2300
The MFP calculation for me would be 1550

Given the large variance between the two, is it just a matter of picking one and trying it and adjusting? 1550 seems really low, but that is what MFP suggested since I want to try and loose 2lbs/week.

Really wouldn't advise trying to lose weight that fast. 1lb a week would be better if you have the patience - you will find it much more sustainable and also much easier to transition from weight/fat loss to maintenance.
Often fast weight loss includes too much loss of lean body mass.

Understood. I adjusted to 1lb/week.

erickirb

First of all, I want to thank all of you for the personal education. I am learning a ton!

Eric,

I adjusted the MFP goals:

1550 = 2lbs/week
2050 = 1lbs/week
2300 = .5lbs/week

So it seems that the .5lbs/week is closer to my TDEE-20% daily of 2300. To me however, I would like to have at least 1lb/week loss.

No not quite, your TDEE includes exercise, so your MFP goal should be much lower, but on workout days should be more cals than TDEE - 20%, and on rest days, less than TDEE-20%.

So often do you workout? And how much do you burn on regular? If it is 600 cals but you only workout 3 days/week, that would average 260 cals/day (600*3/7), so if TDEE -20% = 2300 then your MFP goal should be around 2040. If you workout more often, or burn more then your MFP goal would be even lower.
So if you MFP goal is 2050 then you would eat 2050 on days you don't workout and 2650 on days you burn 600 cals, or you could choose the TDEE - 20% method and just eat 2300 everyday, at the end of the week total cals consumed should be pretty close, provided you have the correct weekly weight loss goal.

tkbuc

My only fear in trying to decide between the variance between TDEE and MFP is that I don't want my caloric intake to be too low where I put my body into starvation which is what I believe I have been doing all along.

erickirb

My only fear in trying to decide between the variance between TDEE and MFP is that I don't want my caloric intake to be too low where I put my body into starvation which is what I believe I have been doing all along.

they won't be with either, either set your MFP goal as 1lb/week and eat back cals burned from exercise, or it at 2300 and don't eat the cals burned back.

cwolfman13

How does TDEE include exercise by just stating how many days you exercise? Wouldn't it very if someone is doing light vs heavy effort? Does it just take an average for that number of days you state you exercise?

There's two main methods in use here:
1/ The MFP way - sets your calorie level to create a deficit you select (lbs/week), includes activity level (lifestyle/job) but excludes exercise. Then when you exercise you estimate the calories burned that day and "eat them back". Some people only back a proportion of their calorie estimates to leave some wiggle room for inaccuracies in calorie estimates.
2/ The TDEE minus a percentage way - includes everything including your estimated exercise calories for the week. You eat a flat amount every day.

Both methods work as they create a calorie deficit so it's personal preference which one suits you better. I prefer the MFP way as my calorie burns vary enormously from day to day and week to week (I cycle a lot...).

With both methods you need to be consistent with logging and estimating and make any adjustments based on actual results over a period of time.

The TDEE-20% calculation for me would be 2300
The MFP calculation for me would be 1550

Given the large variance between the two, is it just a matter of picking one and trying it and adjusting? 1550 seems really low, but that is what MFP suggested since I want to try and loose 2lbs/week.

But with MFP you would log and eat back exercise calories because they aren't included in your activity level...so say you went for a 3 mile run and burned 360 calories...you'd actually gross 1,910 calories after you ate back exercise calories. There is still a difference but that's because you're comparing apples to oranges in RE to your loss rate goal. With MFP you're selecting 2 Lbs per week...TDEE - 20% is usually around 1 Lb per week.

I'll give you an example from when I was losing...I'm 5'10" and started off at around 220. MFP's calorie goal to lose 1 Lb per week was 1850...on average I would gross 2,100 - 2,200 calories per day with exercise. I ultimately switched to the TDEE - 20% method...my TDEE is roughly 2,700 calories...my TDEE - 20% is roughly 2,160 calories. As you can see, it's apples to apples and basically 6 of 1 regardless of method.

Your biggest issue here is that you're selecting a more accelerated weight loss goal with MFP and slower with your TDEE calculation. Just my $.02...slower is a lot easier to adhere to long term...either way, it's a long haul and adherence to your calorie goals will be essential to your success. I started off at 2 Lbs per week and couldn't hang...I was extremely drained and was always thinking about food...when I switched to 1 Lb per week, things became much easier. It took awhile obviously, but it was very easy to adhere to my plan and the weight loss was consistent.

tkbuc

First of all, I want to thank all of you for the personal education. I am learning a ton!

Eric,

I adjusted the MFP goals:

1550 = 2lbs/week
2050 = 1lbs/week
2300 = .5lbs/week

So it seems that the .5lbs/week is closer to my TDEE-20% daily of 2300. To me however, I would like to have at least 1lb/week loss.

No not quite, your TDEE includes exercise, so your MFP goal should be much lower, but on workout days should be more cals than TDEE - 20%, and on rest days, less than TDEE-20%.

So often do you workout? And how much do you burn on regular? If it is 600 cals but you only workout 3 days/week, that would average 260 cals/day (600*3/7), so if TDEE -20% = 2300 then your MFP goal should be around 2040. If you workout more often, or burn more then your MFP goal would be even lower.
So if you MFP goal is 2050 then you would eat 2050 on days you don't workout and 2650 on days you burn 600 cals, or you could choose the TDEE - 20% method and just eat 2300 everyday, at the end of the week total cals consumed should be pretty close, provided you have the correct weekly weight loss goal.

I work out 3-4 days per week. I do 30min eliptical (~400 Cal) and 30min weights (~100 Cal)

erickirb

First of all, I want to thank all of you for the personal education. I am learning a ton!

Eric,

I adjusted the MFP goals:

1550 = 2lbs/week
2050 = 1lbs/week
2300 = .5lbs/week

So it seems that the .5lbs/week is closer to my TDEE-20% daily of 2300. To me however, I would like to have at least 1lb/week loss.

No not quite, your TDEE includes exercise, so your MFP goal should be much lower, but on workout days should be more cals than TDEE - 20%, and on rest days, less than TDEE-20%.

So often do you workout? And how much do you burn on regular? If it is 600 cals but you only workout 3 days/week, that would average 260 cals/day (600*3/7), so if TDEE -20% = 2300 then your MFP goal should be around 2040. If you workout more often, or burn more then your MFP goal would be even lower.
So if you MFP goal is 2050 then you would eat 2050 on days you don't workout and 2650 on days you burn 600 cals, or you could choose the TDEE - 20% method and just eat 2300 everyday, at the end of the week total cals consumed should be pretty close, provided you have the correct weekly weight loss goal.

I work out 3-4 days per week. I do 30min eliptical (~400 Cal) and 30min weights (~100 Cal)

so you would be close at the end of the week whether you ate 2300/day for 7 days = 16,100 cals, or if you followed MFP (with a 1 lb/week weight loss goal) and ate 2050+ exercise cals = 16,350 (2050*7+500*4), so for the week following MFP you would eat between 15,850 and 16,350, depending if you worked out for 3 or 4 days, and following TDEE you would have 16,100, pretty close either way, so pick your poison and stick with that method.

tkbuc

is a 100 or 200 cal difference between TDEE-20% and MFP not even something to be concerned with?

erickirb

is a 100 or 200 cal difference between TDEE-20% and MFP not even something to be concerned with?

So, that means 100-200 cal difference/week would mean an extra lb loss every 17-35 weeks, essentially it will be in the margin of error of calculating cals in and cals out.

It should come down to lifestyle, do you think it would be easier to eat the same cals everyday, or more on days you workout and less on days you don't.