The Paradox of Exercise
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sofrances
Posts: 156 Member
Has anyone read the article The Exercise Paradox?
It details a study of the Hadza people, who have a very active hunter-gatherer lifestyle (18000+ steps), but were found to use an average of 2400 calories. The researchers hypothesised that this means that, long term, exercise doesn't so much increase energy expenditure as change what they body spends the energy on. This may be why its so good for you - because it diverts energy away from harmful things like inflammatory processes etc.
I take this to mean that, long term, once your body has got used to higher level of exercise, you might not actually be able to eat back your exercise calories.
What do people think? Does this accord with your experiences of eating exercise calories etc.?
It details a study of the Hadza people, who have a very active hunter-gatherer lifestyle (18000+ steps), but were found to use an average of 2400 calories. The researchers hypothesised that this means that, long term, exercise doesn't so much increase energy expenditure as change what they body spends the energy on. This may be why its so good for you - because it diverts energy away from harmful things like inflammatory processes etc.
I take this to mean that, long term, once your body has got used to higher level of exercise, you might not actually be able to eat back your exercise calories.
What do people think? Does this accord with your experiences of eating exercise calories etc.?
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Unfortunately, the link is behind a paywall so I can't read what he says and what conclusions he is drawing...
I will say this, however. If he is trying to say that the Hadza are a representative sample of homo sapiens, then any conclusion he is trying to extrapolate to the rest of us is kind of silly. The Hadza are a completely separate sub-group/culture that has been living the hunter-gatherer life for thousands of years without intermingling with the rest of the world, so it would not be unheard of for them to have special adaptations to their specific lifestyle - such as conservation of energy and more efficient energy use adaptations. There are many sub-cultures across the planet that have adapted in such ways that are very specific to their lifestyles and situations (adaptations that have taken thousands of years to develop) - adaptations that do not extend to the rest of us 'normals'.7 -
Just FYI, the full article can be found fairly easily. However, I thought it best to post the official link here.0
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"I take this to mean that, long term, once your body has got used to higher level of exercise, you might not actually be able to eat back your exercise calories."
Sorry but that's illogical. To move takes energy, that energy comes ultimately from your food.
The 200+ watts of power I'm generating doesn't come out of thin air.
Remember this from your school physics lessons?
The first law of thermodynamics, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed.
Yes there can be some minor efficiency gains and variations between individuals.
As an average sized 60 YO man I'm eating far more to maintain my weight than most of my demographic purely because I exercise a lot. My calorie goal for maintenance today is 3,721 and that's far from exceptional for me.
Your body predominately "gets used to a higher level of exercise" by getting fitter, faster and stronger. What felt hard now feels easy but because your capabilities have gone up, not because it takes less energy. I can burn roughly one third more calories in a given time than I could previously or I can produce the same amount of power/burn the same number of calories as my previous best and it now feels comfortable.
"What do people think? Does this accord with your experiences of eating exercise calories etc.?"
I ate them back when I was losing weight and continue to eat them back after 7 years of weight maintenance.
I maintain weight while eating my 100,000+ annual cycling calories (plus gym calories).
I'm somewhat privileged in that my exercise estimates from cycling are easy to ge accurate numbers - but there seems a large tendency for people to blame their exercise calorie inaccuracy for their sums appearing not to add up when frequently the far bigger problem is that people often are pretty poor at estimating their food intake.
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It does certainly seem paradoxical, if not strictly illogical. I'm not in a position to argue with the science though (although for all I know there are other scientists who have).
I mean, its not strictly contrary to the law of thermodynamics. The hypothesis is that one form of "energy out" (exercise) reduces another sort of "energy out" (resting energy expenditure).0 -
It does certainly seem paradoxical, if not strictly illogical. I'm not in a position to argue with the science though (although for all I know there are other scientists who have).
I mean, its not strictly contrary to the law of thermodynamics. The hypothesis is that one form of "energy out" (exercise) reduces another sort of "energy out" (resting energy expenditure).
Is that his hypothesis?
Just based on the Hazda lifetyle? That would seem to be a huge assumption and a projection to completely different lifestyles seems very unwise. Hunter gatherers are hardly comparable in their available downtime choices compared to other cultures.
Personally being fit increases my non-exercise energy expenditure too, being unfit makes me lazier.
My activity setting on here has always been higher than most would expect both when I had a desk job and also now I'm retired.9 -
I've been running and eating back the calories since 2015. I will note that, based on my observation of results, my body has not yet found a way to produce energy from nothing to fuel my runs, so if it's going to happen I guess it will take longer than five years.9
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I'll admit to not having read the full article, only diagonally.
I think this is the basis of the article though:
"data from 98 studies around the globe and showed that populations coddled by the modern conveniences of the developed world have similar energy expenditures to those in less developed countries, with more physically demanding lives."
And how that difference could be explained:
"How does the body adjust to higher activity levels to keep daily energy expenditure in check? [...] we know, for example, that Hadza adults burn the same number of calories to walk a mile as Westerners do. It could be that people with high activity levels change their behavior in subtle ways that save energy, like sitting rather than standing or sleeping more soundly. But our analysis of the METS data suggests that although these behavioral changes might con-tribute, they are not sufficient to account for the constancy seen in daily energy expenditure."
My issue is: the article talks about comparisons in calorie expenditure between populations.
But then jumps to ideas about indivual health and metabolism, such as:
"In fact, I suspect that metabolic adaptation to activity is one of the reasons exercise keeps us healthy, diverting energy away from activities, such as inflammation, that have negative consequences if they go on too long. For example, chronic inflammation has been linked to cardiovascular disease and autoimmune disorders."
To conclude that our bodies burn less calories (base metabolism) as we get used to exercising/being active - on an individual level - requires metabolic testing of individual subjects being a certain level of active after having been long-term sedentary and after having been that active for a long time, to compare base metabolism.
But by comparing two populations, another (more logical, in my mind) conclusion would be that the Hadza have evolved as a people to 'waste' less calories on basic metabolism etc. since they need a lot of calories for their daily activities.9 -
It does certainly seem paradoxical, if not strictly illogical. I'm not in a position to argue with the science though (although for all I know there are other scientists who have).
I mean, its not strictly contrary to the law of thermodynamics. The hypothesis is that one form of "energy out" (exercise) reduces another sort of "energy out" (resting energy expenditure).
One study does not suddenly become "the science". For it to be accepted scientific fact the results need to be replicated multiple times.
Based on your posts, you seem prone to over-analysis.8 -
It does certainly seem paradoxical, if not strictly illogical. I'm not in a position to argue with the science though (although for all I know there are other scientists who have).
I mean, its not strictly contrary to the law of thermodynamics. The hypothesis is that one form of "energy out" (exercise) reduces another sort of "energy out" (resting energy expenditure).
One study does not suddenly become "the science". For it to be accepted scientific fact the results need to be replicated multiple times.
Based on your posts, you seem prone to over-analysis.
At most, what one study like this could show us is that there is something potentially interesting to look at here. Even if the results are 100% correctly observed, there are many ways this could go besides "people who exercise at high levels will stop needing calories for the increased activity."
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What does it matter? You (you, personally, sofrances) can eat what you can eat.
You're not going to change your biology, genetics. I eat a full 500 calories above what any of the calculators say I should be able to eat. It is what it is. If that number was 1900, or 3000, what would it matter? I made my food choices fit my needs.9 -
I remember reading an article quite a while ago about people in some African tribes walking long distances with heavy loads in such a way that they preserve energy. I think it was something about using the momentum of the movement and the additional weight somehow.
I also read a/this? study just now showing that the average male of this tribe is just about 50kg. Now the paper doesn't mention how tall they are, but the average BMI is very much on the lower end, also for women. This suggests very low body fat and low muscle mass, hence less mass to be moved around and to be nourished. This might play a role as well.3 -
One study does not suddenly become "the science". For it to be accepted scientific fact the results need to be replicated multiple times.
Sorry for any misunderstanding, I wasn't saying "The Science" in capitals, I just meant "I'm not in a position to argue with the scientific argument of this article".Based on your posts, you seem prone to over-analysis.
Oh, I'd be the first to admit that.4 -
Has anyone read the article The Exercise Paradox?
It details a study of the Hadza people, who have a very active hunter-gatherer lifestyle (18000+ steps), but were found to use an average of 2400 calories. The researchers hypothesised that this means that, long term, exercise doesn't so much increase energy expenditure as change what they body spends the energy on. This may be why its so good for you - because it diverts energy away from harmful things like inflammatory processes etc.
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At what height/weight are they maintaining? 2400 isn't necessarily less versus one of us active people. That would amount to ~1000 exercise calories for me at estimated maintenance at my slightly higher than ideal weight. That would be ~30 miles of hard cycling/day in my case.2 -
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I also read a/this? study just now showing that the average male of this tribe is just about 50kg. Now the paper doesn't mention how tall they are, but the average BMI is very much on the lower end, also for women. This suggests very low body fat and low muscle mass, hence less mass to be moved around and to be nourished. This might play a role as well.
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..So pretty close to my weight as a 4'10" female. Their BMR & NEAT/exercise-generated calories would be on the lower side versus that of most of the people here.2 -
I remember reading an article quite a while ago about people in some African tribes walking long distances with heavy loads in such a way that they preserve energy. I think it was something about using the momentum of the movement and the additional weight somehow.
I also read a/this? study just now showing that the average male of this tribe is just about 50kg. Now the paper doesn't mention how tall they are, but the average BMI is very much on the lower end, also for women. This suggests very low body fat and low muscle mass, hence less mass to be moved around and to be nourished. This might play a role as well.
That was one of the first thoughts I had myself when reading the article (aside from my other comments already posted)
But in the article there is a graph showing calorie burn in relation to lean mass, for both Hadza and Westerners, and in the explanation:
“To account for differences in energy expenditure arising from body size, Western averages are calculated at Hadza body sizes"
Not sure what they mean by size though: height or weight?1 -
I remember reading an article quite a while ago about people in some African tribes walking long distances with heavy loads in such a way that they preserve energy. I think it was something about using the momentum of the movement and the additional weight somehow.
I also read a/this? study just now showing that the average male of this tribe is just about 50kg. Now the paper doesn't mention how tall they are, but the average BMI is very much on the lower end, also for women. This suggests very low body fat and low muscle mass, hence less mass to be moved around and to be nourished. This might play a role as well.
That was one of the first thoughts I had myself when reading the article (aside from my other comments already posted)
But in the article there is a graph showing calorie burn in relation to lean mass, for both Hadza and Westerners, and in the explanation:
“To account for differences in energy expenditure arising from body size, Western averages are calculated at Hadza body sizes"
Not sure what they mean by size though: height or weight?
Yeah, and I still don't know if I looked at the same study, as surprise: I can't find it anymore and the one linked above is being a paywall. I do have quite a few questions as well.0 -
For those not inclined to Google the article mentioned in the OP
here's a non paying version:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://exss.unc.edu/files/2018/09/Exercise-paradox-Pontzer-2017.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj_mNCymKLpAhUOyqQKHWXRC8cQFjABegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2F3rutNL1eZdpNNS_zHL3O1 -
Has anyone read the article The Exercise Paradox?
It details a study of the Hadza people, who have a very active hunter-gatherer lifestyle (18000+ steps), but were found to use an average of 2400 calories.
Let's break down what 18,00 steps means in terms of calories (assuming reasonably level terrain) it would be something less than 10 miles a day and if you use the .30 x weight in lbs x distance in miles formula for net energy expenditure 10 miles represents 600 cal daily for a 200lb person so a 2,400 cal/day expenditure is not surprising.... FWIW I used a TDEE calculator based on my goal weight of 175 lbs and current exercise levels and my projected TDEE was around 2,400 cals.
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Sorry to be that person, but as someone who works in academia I would not trust a study with only 3 references. There is also no clear and justifiable methodology so replicability of this study would be near impossible under the proper standards, thus deeply impacting the reliability and validity of any "findings". Pseudoscience one would suggest.9
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Took a while to find it back: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3405064/
this is what I read earlier today. There's more data there, some statistical analysis (didn't check that one), and also more questions that I have0
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