More carbs > More fat?
darreneatschicken
Posts: 669 Member
The consensus here on MFP seems to be that macros don't matter, as long as you're consuming enough protein and hitting your caloric goal. So eat at a moderate caloric surplus (as to not gain too much fat), consume enough protein (at least 1 gram per body weight lb) and then get the rest from fat and carbs. It doesn't matter how much fat or carbs, as long as you're hitting your caloric goal. However, I just finished reading an article that explains that people who consume more fat gain more fat (and gain less muscle) than people who consume more carbs. What are your guys' thoughts on this: https://bonytobeastly.com/carb-or-protein-diet-for-ectomorphs/#more-339
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Replies
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I'm not clicking that link. Mesomorphs have been debunked, so I'm pretty confident that article doesn't have any validity, AKA total woo!
Dietary fat has nothing to do with body fat.8 -
I wouldn't say macros don't matter, especially when gaining. Clearly enough protein is required to build muscle. Dietary fat is important for hormone and body function, when trying to build muscle carbs are important for muscle building and workout performance. So you want to make sure after you get enough protein, at least the minimum fats you make sure you do prioritize carb intake. But gain or loss will come ultimately down to calories. Excess fat gain during a bulk is usually the result of poor training and too high a surplus. Also starting off too high bodyfat to bulk. Macros also have a factor of course but it tends to not as high on the cause of fat gain list.
I know I have read studies where high fat diets such as keto to bulk is less optimal due to the importance of carbs for workouts, muscle building as I mentioned, as well dietary fat is more easily stored as fat. However there are ways around this such as having carbs around workouts (I know @PsuLemon knows more about this than I do). If you don't have to do keto for health or personal reasons, I would not recommend it during a bulk.
All that being said, your main goal when gaining is to be in a surplus. I would not aim to significantly reduce fat especially if you do not find it filling. If you are getting enough protein and carbs, there is nothing wrong with a little higher fat level especially if it helps you get into a surplus and makes your food taste better. Dry food just doesn't go down as easily, at least for me!
Don't major in the minors when it comes to this... don't get caught up in what you should or shouldn't do, what is the absolute most optimal. Unless you are a pro bodybuilder at the top end of your game, just focus on the simple things and be consistent.6 -
I wouldn't say macros don't matter, especially when gaining. Clearly enough protein is required to build muscle. Dietary fat is important for hormone and body function, when trying to build muscle carbs are important for muscle building and workout performance. So you want to make sure after you get enough protein, at least the minimum fats you make sure you do prioritize carb intake. But gain or loss will come ultimately down to calories. Excess fat gain during a bulk is usually the result of poor training and too high a surplus. Also starting off too high bodyfat to bulk. Macros also have a factor of course but it tends to not as high on the cause of fat gain list.
I know I have read studies where high fat diets such as keto to bulk is less optimal due to the importance of carbs for workouts, muscle building as I mentioned, as well dietary fat is more easily stored as fat. However there are ways around this such as having carbs around workouts (I know @PsuLemon knows more about this than I do). If you don't have to do keto for health or personal reasons, I would not recommend it during a bulk.
All that being said, your main goal when gaining is to be in a surplus. I would not aim to significantly reduce fat especially if you do not find it filling. If you are getting enough protein and carbs, there is nothing wrong with a little higher fat level especially if it helps you get into a surplus and makes your food taste better. Dry food just doesn't go down as easily, at least for me!
Don't major in the minors when it comes to this... don't get caught up in what you should or shouldn't do, what is the absolute most optimal. Unless you are a pro bodybuilder at the top end of your game, just focus on the simple things and be consistent.
Carbs can certainly be valuable during a bulk. How many is really up for debate. I personally haven't seen evidence support how many grams of carbs are optimal for muscle gaining. We know they are anti catabolic and help prevent muscle degradation. But you can certainly do bulks with keto through a timed approach (30-35g of carb 30-45 mins prior to lifting and protein after) or a cyclical ketogenic approach where you do carb refeeds once a week or every other week. I am running CKD where i consume 400-450g carbs once every 2-3 weeks (depending how i feel). When i bulk back up, i may try to run a combination of CKD and TKD or just run TKD. I would run 170-200g protein and consume 30g of jelly beans or gummy bears before my workout and have a protein shake after. The only concern i have is whether not the appetite suppression capabilities of ketogenic diets are going to have an effect on my ability to eat enough calories. I can tell you, even on my cut, i have days (like the past 2), where i just don't feel like eating.5 -
Thanks for all the advice guys. The reason I ask is because I've been struggling a lot with gaining weight. Lately, I've been eating at a 40% carbs, 40% fat, and 20% protein macro split, which is making it a lot easier to hit 3000 calories a day. My diet literally consists of pizza, subway, steak, salmon, beef, chicken legs, oil, and butter... lots of butter. Needless to say, I don't feel "healthy" at all. My stomach is constantly bloated and my mom keeps commenting that I seem to have gained a "tummy."
I started running Stronglifts 5x5 late last year (around November) with some added accessory work. When the quarantine hit in mid-March I bought a pair of adjustable dumbbells and continued running the same program, except for adding more reps in because you can't lift as much weight.
However, since November, I've only gained around 8 pounds (went from 140 lbs to 148 lbs, eating 2500 calories a day to now almost 3000 a day). The worst part is that most of the weight seems to have gone straight to my belly: I'm stronger, but I don't look more muscular. I also wasn't gaining weight consistently. Like I would have a couple months where I was consistently tracking my food and gaining .5 lbs a week. But then I would have an off week or two, and boom! I would lose 2 lbs almost instantly.
What do you guys' think my problem is? Should I switch to a more hypertrophy-oriented workout like Boring but Big? Am I not eating enough? Is it both?1 -
asianambition wrote: »Thanks for all the advice guys. The reason I ask is because I've been struggling a lot with gaining weight. Lately, I've been eating at a 40% carbs, 40% fat, and 20% protein macro split, which is making it a lot easier to hit 3000 calories a day. My diet literally consists of pizza, subway, steak, salmon, beef, chicken legs, oil, and butter... lots of butter. Needless to say, I don't feel "healthy" at all. My stomach is constantly bloated and my mom keeps commenting that I seem to have gained a "tummy."
I started running Stronglifts 5x5 late last year (around November) with some added accessory work. When the quarantine hit in mid-March I bought a pair of adjustable dumbbells and continued running the same program, except for adding more reps in because you can't lift as much weight.
However, since November, I've only gained around 8 pounds (went from 140 lbs to 148 lbs, eating 2500 calories a day to now almost 3000 a day). The worst part is that most of the weight seems to have gone straight to my belly: I'm stronger, but I don't look more muscular. I also wasn't gaining weight consistently. Like I would have a couple months where I was consistently tracking my food and gaining .5 lbs a week. But then I would have an off week or two, and boom! I would lose 2 lbs almost instantly.
What do you guys' think my problem is? Should I switch to a more hypertrophy-oriented workout like Boring but Big? Am I not eating enough? Is it both?
A more hypertrophy style workout with more volume will help with muscle development problem. But genetics is going to determine where your fat goes. If possible, it might be worth trying to eat a little cleaner to see if that changes anything.1 -
asianambition wrote: »Thanks for all the advice guys. The reason I ask is because I've been struggling a lot with gaining weight. Lately, I've been eating at a 40% carbs, 40% fat, and 20% protein macro split, which is making it a lot easier to hit 3000 calories a day. My diet literally consists of pizza, subway, steak, salmon, beef, chicken legs, oil, and butter... lots of butter. Needless to say, I don't feel "healthy" at all. My stomach is constantly bloated and my mom keeps commenting that I seem to have gained a "tummy."
I started running Stronglifts 5x5 late last year (around November) with some added accessory work. When the quarantine hit in mid-March I bought a pair of adjustable dumbbells and continued running the same program, except for adding more reps in because you can't lift as much weight.
However, since November, I've only gained around 8 pounds (went from 140 lbs to 148 lbs, eating 2500 calories a day to now almost 3000 a day). The worst part is that most of the weight seems to have gone straight to my belly: I'm stronger, but I don't look more muscular. I also wasn't gaining weight consistently. Like I would have a couple months where I was consistently tracking my food and gaining .5 lbs a week. But then I would have an off week or two, and boom! I would lose 2 lbs almost instantly.
What do you guys' think my problem is? Should I switch to a more hypertrophy-oriented workout like Boring but Big? Am I not eating enough? Is it both?
A more hypertrophy style workout with more volume will help with muscle development problem. But genetics is going to determine where your fat goes. If possible, it might be worth trying to eat a little cleaner to see if that changes anything.
So less fat?
And would Boring but Big be a good program to start?1 -
If you’re losing two pounds after a week break, it’s because your muscles have dropped the water weight they were temporarily using for repairs. You don’t lose two pounds of muscle in a week while eating at a surplus.asianambition wrote: »Thanks for all the advice guys. The reason I ask is because I've been struggling a lot with gaining weight. Lately, I've been eating at a 40% carbs, 40% fat, and 20% protein macro split, which is making it a lot easier to hit 3000 calories a day. My diet literally consists of pizza, subway, steak, salmon, beef, chicken legs, oil, and butter... lots of butter. Needless to say, I don't feel "healthy" at all. My stomach is constantly bloated and my mom keeps commenting that I seem to have gained a "tummy."
I started running Stronglifts 5x5 late last year (around November) with some added accessory work. When the quarantine hit in mid-March I bought a pair of adjustable dumbbells and continued running the same program, except for adding more reps in because you can't lift as much weight.
However, since November, I've only gained around 8 pounds (went from 140 lbs to 148 lbs, eating 2500 calories a day to now almost 3000 a day). The worst part is that most of the weight seems to have gone straight to my belly: I'm stronger, but I don't look more muscular. I also wasn't gaining weight consistently. Like I would have a couple months where I was consistently tracking my food and gaining .5 lbs a week. But then I would have an off week or two, and boom! I would lose 2 lbs almost instantly.
What do you guys' think my problem is? Should I switch to a more hypertrophy-oriented workout like Boring but Big? Am I not eating enough? Is it both?
Since this high fat diet isn’t agreeing with you, you might as well try something different. That much saturated fat probably isn’t optimal for heart health, anyway. Olive oil and almonds have as many calories as butter and pizza but might make you feel less gross.
I’m a type 2 diabetic so I have to limit carbs, and what I’ve found in relation to carbs and lifting is that timing makes a lot of difference. Eat carbs about 30 minutes to an hour before your workouts, and the blood sugar boost may make you feel able to do more. Eat some carbs afterwards (particularly after cardio) and it will bring your levels back up. As a metabolically healthy person you obviously don’t have the same limitations I do, but I wanted to emphasize, no need to be afraid of carbs.
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asianambition wrote: »asianambition wrote: »Thanks for all the advice guys. The reason I ask is because I've been struggling a lot with gaining weight. Lately, I've been eating at a 40% carbs, 40% fat, and 20% protein macro split, which is making it a lot easier to hit 3000 calories a day. My diet literally consists of pizza, subway, steak, salmon, beef, chicken legs, oil, and butter... lots of butter. Needless to say, I don't feel "healthy" at all. My stomach is constantly bloated and my mom keeps commenting that I seem to have gained a "tummy."
I started running Stronglifts 5x5 late last year (around November) with some added accessory work. When the quarantine hit in mid-March I bought a pair of adjustable dumbbells and continued running the same program, except for adding more reps in because you can't lift as much weight.
However, since November, I've only gained around 8 pounds (went from 140 lbs to 148 lbs, eating 2500 calories a day to now almost 3000 a day). The worst part is that most of the weight seems to have gone straight to my belly: I'm stronger, but I don't look more muscular. I also wasn't gaining weight consistently. Like I would have a couple months where I was consistently tracking my food and gaining .5 lbs a week. But then I would have an off week or two, and boom! I would lose 2 lbs almost instantly.
What do you guys' think my problem is? Should I switch to a more hypertrophy-oriented workout like Boring but Big? Am I not eating enough? Is it both?
A more hypertrophy style workout with more volume will help with muscle development problem. But genetics is going to determine where your fat goes. If possible, it might be worth trying to eat a little cleaner to see if that changes anything.
So less fat?
And would Boring but Big be a good program to start?
So less processed foods and higher quality foods.
And BBB is a strength program. Look at PHUL or PHAT.0 -
I wouldn't say macros don't matter, especially when gaining. Clearly enough protein is required to build muscle. Dietary fat is important for hormone and body function, when trying to build muscle carbs are important for muscle building and workout performance. So you want to make sure after you get enough protein, at least the minimum fats you make sure you do prioritize carb intake. But gain or loss will come ultimately down to calories. Excess fat gain during a bulk is usually the result of poor training and too high a surplus. Also starting off too high bodyfat to bulk. Macros also have a factor of course but it tends to not as high on the cause of fat gain list.
I wrote the linked article and I agree with this. I was never trying to imply that macros are one of the more important factors. My stance is exactly the same as this. Totally agree.
With that said, I do side with researchers such as Eric Helms and Brad Schoenfeld who recommend a default of around 50% of calories from carbohydrates while bulking. That depends, of course, but I'd say that's a pretty sensible default.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6680710/
To quote the lead author on the paper, Eric Helms, PhD, about the ideal fat intake while bulking: "For most people I recommend 20–30% of total calories, but if you prefer higher fat intakes and lower carbs or have good data to show this works better for you, you can go up to 40%."quiksylver296 wrote: »I'm not clicking that link. Mesomorphs have been debunked, so I'm pretty confident that article doesn't have any validity, AKA total woo!
Hey, man, I wrote that article. I appreciate your skepticism.
Regarding the term "mesomorph," nowadays it seems to be mainly used in the fitness industry as a slang term. The part that's been debunked is William Sheldon's research that tried to establish a link between body type and personality type. That was debunked. But I've never seen anyone in the fitness industry trying to link people's body types with their personalities. I think people realize that, and the term has shifted to just refer to a body type.
For instance, if we have a naturally skinny guy who has trouble gaining weight, and he's surrounded by overweight people who struggle to lose weight, he might feel like he has an atypical "body type." In that case, I don't think it's wrong for him to call himself a "hardgainer" or whatnot. It's just a convenient word to summarize a situation.
Ectomorph isn't my preferred term to use, but skinny guys often call themselves ectomorphs, so we do use it in our articles sometimes. If you'd read our articles, though, you'd see that we explain that it's not a scientific term: "It’s also worth noting that 'ectomorph' isn’t a scientific term, it’s just used colloquially to describe a skinny body type."Carbs can certainly be valuable during a bulk. How many is really up for debate. I personally haven't seen evidence support how many grams of carbs are optimal for muscle gaining. We know they are anti catabolic and help prevent muscle degradation. But you can certainly do bulks with keto through a timed approach (30-35g of carb 30-45 mins prior to lifting and protein after) or a cyclical ketogenic approach where you do carb refeeds once a week or every other week. I am running CKD where i consume 400-450g carbs once every 2-3 weeks (depending how i feel). When i bulk back up, i may try to run a combination of CKD and TKD or just run TKD. I would run 170-200g protein and consume 30g of jelly beans or gummy bears before my workout and have a protein shake after. The only concern i have is whether not the appetite suppression capabilities of ketogenic diets are going to have an effect on my ability to eat enough calories. I can tell you, even on my cut, i have days (like the past 2), where i just don't feel like eating.
Ah! Okay. I saw you mentioned another thread so I came to check it out. Yeah, I see we're pretty much on the same page here. That's my main issue with skinny guys attempting to bulk on a ketogenic diet, too—it can make it hard to eat enough calories to gain weight.0 -
ShaneDuquette wrote: »I wouldn't say macros don't matter, especially when gaining. Clearly enough protein is required to build muscle. Dietary fat is important for hormone and body function, when trying to build muscle carbs are important for muscle building and workout performance. So you want to make sure after you get enough protein, at least the minimum fats you make sure you do prioritize carb intake. But gain or loss will come ultimately down to calories. Excess fat gain during a bulk is usually the result of poor training and too high a surplus. Also starting off too high bodyfat to bulk. Macros also have a factor of course but it tends to not as high on the cause of fat gain list.
I wrote the linked article and I agree with this. I was never trying to imply that macros are one of the more important factors. My stance is exactly the same as this. Totally agree.
With that said, I do side with researchers such as Eric Helms and Brad Schoenfeld who recommend a default of around 50% of calories from carbohydrates while bulking. That depends, of course, but I'd say that's a pretty sensible default.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6680710/
To quote the lead author on the paper, Eric Helms, PhD, about the ideal fat intake while bulking: "For most people I recommend 20–30% of total calories, but if you prefer higher fat intakes and lower carbs or have good data to show this works better for you, you can go up to 40%."quiksylver296 wrote: »I'm not clicking that link. Mesomorphs have been debunked, so I'm pretty confident that article doesn't have any validity, AKA total woo!
Hey, man, I wrote that article. I appreciate your skepticism.
Regarding the term "mesomorph," nowadays it seems to be mainly used in the fitness industry as a slang term. The part that's been debunked is William Sheldon's research that tried to establish a link between body type and personality type. That was debunked. But I've never seen anyone in the fitness industry trying to link people's body types with their personalities. I think people realize that, and the term has shifted to just refer to a body type.
For instance, if we have a naturally skinny guy who has trouble gaining weight, and he's surrounded by overweight people who struggle to lose weight, he might feel like he has an atypical "body type." In that case, I don't think it's wrong for him to call himself a "hardgainer" or whatnot. It's just a convenient word to summarize a situation.
Ectomorph isn't my preferred term to use, but skinny guys often call themselves ectomorphs, so we do use it in our articles sometimes. If you'd read our articles, though, you'd see that we explain that it's not a scientific term: "It’s also worth noting that 'ectomorph' isn’t a scientific term, it’s just used colloquially to describe a skinny body type."Carbs can certainly be valuable during a bulk. How many is really up for debate. I personally haven't seen evidence support how many grams of carbs are optimal for muscle gaining. We know they are anti catabolic and help prevent muscle degradation. But you can certainly do bulks with keto through a timed approach (30-35g of carb 30-45 mins prior to lifting and protein after) or a cyclical ketogenic approach where you do carb refeeds once a week or every other week. I am running CKD where i consume 400-450g carbs once every 2-3 weeks (depending how i feel). When i bulk back up, i may try to run a combination of CKD and TKD or just run TKD. I would run 170-200g protein and consume 30g of jelly beans or gummy bears before my workout and have a protein shake after. The only concern i have is whether not the appetite suppression capabilities of ketogenic diets are going to have an effect on my ability to eat enough calories. I can tell you, even on my cut, i have days (like the past 2), where i just don't feel like eating.
Ah! Okay. I saw you mentioned another thread so I came to check it out. Yeah, I see we're pretty much on the same page here. That's my main issue with skinny guys attempting to bulk on a ketogenic diet, too—it can make it hard to eat enough calories to gain weight.
I think we certainly are on the same page.0 -
I think we certainly are on the same page.
I'm working on updating the "ectomorph" article to include a better explanation of the term and its limitations. After that, I'll update our carb/fat macro one, too. I think it would be much clearer with this nuance added to it.
I appreciate your thoughts and criticism. Thank you
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ShaneDuquette wrote: »I think we certainly are on the same page.
I'm working on updating the "ectomorph" article to include a better explanation of the term and its limitations. After that, I'll update our carb/fat macro one, too. I think it would be much clearer with this nuance added to it.
I appreciate your thoughts and criticism. Thank you
You know what's interesting. Some of the recent pod cast with Omar and Helms still uses somatotypes. I think people often struggle with the context and jump to conclusions thinking it's automatically debunked. Just like if someone talks about bro-splits. People automatically jump to the conclusion that it's wrong. What people don't realize is you can still have a well designed bro-split that allows you to hit the build muscles 2x a week (i.e., Deadlift for back and leg days). Eric Helms made an IG post on this a few months back. The main take home message, don't jump to conclusions without knowing context.2
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