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Vegan Milk

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  • MikePfirrmanMikePfirrman Member Posts: 1,840 Member Member Posts: 1,840 Member
    Fuzzipeg wrote: »
    The point I was making from experience, (having had dil having a hissy fit at my parents about a piece of meat passing over a plate!) She would not accept dna extraction for the dairy substitute product or any other product yet to be imagined even as a vegetarian, she is now vegan.

    Bees visit plants to use the pollen, without pollen many insects would die, we benefit from the fruits and seeds. All land and sea animals produce excrement - in the wild its freely dispersed so the plants and bugs can make use of it for life. So things which happen naturally aught to be ok, being established in the way the world works. Things which can only, happen hygienically in a science lab are totally different. Cultivating plants introducing pollen from one to another, if the seeds form a cross which is more productive than the parents and that is used, its natural but taking dna etc from a living thing plant or what ever introducing it into something totally different with no known outcome, only the guess, I'm yet to be convinced.



    Your daughter-in-law's approach to veganism isn't the only one. I, and many other vegans I've encountered, don't have a standard of "no animal input at any stage" because we realize that isn't a realistic goal right now.

    When you say "no animal input at any stage," you were not making a distinction between activities engaged in by animals in the wild versus controlled by humans. If you're now introducing that you recognize that distinction, I accept that. I'll point out that in many cases of modern agriculture, the pollination is NOT taking place by wild insects, but insects are moved from place to place deliberately by farmers. So if you're saying that the first is acceptable for someone practicing a vegan ethics and the second isn't, you'll have to explain how on earth a vegan -- as a consumer -- is supposed to distinguish between the two.

    And you might also want to address how you expect a vegan to approach crops fertilized with animal byproducts. Does your daughter-in-law avoid these? Because those are absolutely "animal input" as well.

    As far as your daughter-in-law's "hissy fit" about meat passing over her plate -- it's not at all uncommon for picky eaters to not want foods they have an aversion to passing directly over their own food or plate, as it may drip down. This isn't part of vegan ethics, although some vegans may have an aversion to meat. I personally have developed a strong aversion to the smell of ground beef cooking in the years I've been a vegan. This is not at all related to an ethical position and shouldn't be used as an argument that cooking ground beef is somehow more morally problematic than other forms of animal exploitation. It's just an aversion, like not wanting meat to pass directly over your plate.

    Just a real quick funny story related to that. My daughter became a strict vegetarian at age 9. Though we tried to get her to eat meat (we honestly just weren't educated on it ourselves), she was committed.

    I did the cooking at home and, after giving up after a year or so of encouraging her to eat like us, I respected her decision and completely separated any food, pan, utensil that I used in the kitchen for her. My wife, who likes to stroll into the kitchen, would go to grab a meat gravy spoon (or similar) and go to stir her food. When I'd tell her "don't do that...", she'd respond, "what's the difference?". My daughter saw her one time and was horrified! For around 10 years, while she lived at home, my wife had to stay out of the kitchen completely. She was banned.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member Posts: 23,787 Member Member Posts: 23,787 Member
    Fuzzipeg wrote: »
    The point I was making from experience, (having had dil having a hissy fit at my parents about a piece of meat passing over a plate!) She would not accept dna extraction for the dairy substitute product or any other product yet to be imagined even as a vegetarian, she is now vegan.

    Bees visit plants to use the pollen, without pollen many insects would die, we benefit from the fruits and seeds. All land and sea animals produce excrement - in the wild its freely dispersed so the plants and bugs can make use of it for life. So things which happen naturally aught to be ok, being established in the way the world works. Things which can only, happen hygienically in a science lab are totally different. Cultivating plants introducing pollen from one to another, if the seeds form a cross which is more productive than the parents and that is used, its natural but taking dna etc from a living thing plant or what ever introducing it into something totally different with no known outcome, only the guess, I'm yet to be convinced.



    Your daughter-in-law's approach to veganism isn't the only one. I, and many other vegans I've encountered, don't have a standard of "no animal input at any stage" because we realize that isn't a realistic goal right now.

    When you say "no animal input at any stage," you were not making a distinction between activities engaged in by animals in the wild versus controlled by humans. If you're now introducing that you recognize that distinction, I accept that. I'll point out that in many cases of modern agriculture, the pollination is NOT taking place by wild insects, but insects are moved from place to place deliberately by farmers. So if you're saying that the first is acceptable for someone practicing a vegan ethics and the second isn't, you'll have to explain how on earth a vegan -- as a consumer -- is supposed to distinguish between the two.

    And you might also want to address how you expect a vegan to approach crops fertilized with animal byproducts. Does your daughter-in-law avoid these? Because those are absolutely "animal input" as well.

    As far as your daughter-in-law's "hissy fit" about meat passing over her plate -- it's not at all uncommon for picky eaters to not want foods they have an aversion to passing directly over their own food or plate, as it may drip down. This isn't part of vegan ethics, although some vegans may have an aversion to meat. I personally have developed a strong aversion to the smell of ground beef cooking in the years I've been a vegan. This is not at all related to an ethical position and shouldn't be used as an argument that cooking ground beef is somehow more morally problematic than other forms of animal exploitation. It's just an aversion, like not wanting meat to pass directly over your plate.

    Just a real quick funny story related to that. My daughter became a strict vegetarian at age 9. Though we tried to get her to eat meat (we honestly just weren't educated on it ourselves), she was committed.

    I did the cooking at home and, after giving up after a year or so of encouraging her to eat like us, I respected her decision and completely separated any food, pan, utensil that I used in the kitchen for her. My wife, who likes to stroll into the kitchen, would go to grab a meat gravy spoon (or similar) and go to stir her food. When I'd tell her "don't do that...", she'd respond, "what's the difference?". My daughter saw her one time and was horrified! For around 10 years, while she lived at home, my wife had to stay out of the kitchen completely. She was banned.

    :D
  • kristingjertsenkristingjertsen Member Posts: 203 Member Member Posts: 203 Member
    Casein Allergy here so I will stick to unsweetened soymilk. Works well for cooking and coffee. Neutral taste.
  • MikePfirrmanMikePfirrman Member Posts: 1,840 Member Member Posts: 1,840 Member
    Casein Allergy here so I will stick to unsweetened soymilk. Works well for cooking and coffee. Neutral taste.

    I love soy. As someone that doesn't really have to eliminate dairy, it's my go to. I have a large sack of organic soy beans and have gotten a Chufa-Mix (I think that's what it's called) but haven't been brave enough to make soy milk on my own. You have to soak, blend, strain and then heat soy milk. Lots of steps but been wanting to eliminate all the vegetable oils in the store bought stuff.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member Posts: 23,787 Member Member Posts: 23,787 Member
    Casein Allergy here so I will stick to unsweetened soymilk. Works well for cooking and coffee. Neutral taste.

    I love soy. As someone that doesn't really have to eliminate dairy, it's my go to. I have a large sack of organic soy beans and have gotten a Chufa-Mix (I think that's what it's called) but haven't been brave enough to make soy milk on my own. You have to soak, blend, strain and then heat soy milk. Lots of steps but been wanting to eliminate all the vegetable oils in the store bought stuff.

    Making my own soy milk is something that I really want to try. I've read the directions a few times . . . that counts for something, right?
  • FuzzipegFuzzipeg Member Posts: 1,992 Member Member Posts: 1,992 Member
    The objection I share is to the DNA being required at all. Animals are still being exploited even if it is less so. I would like to know the nutritional values attached too this product for a full evaluation for it being any better than the range of grain/seed milks on the market. As it stands my opinion is "go without". No animal DNA, no animal harm.

    I would have more respect for those of you females so very anxious to have a "good cheese" or similar texture had some of you volunteered your own DNA for use in this product. You would have had the choice to be exploited or not rather than this being another "product input" expected of some animal. Your donation of DNA will have the added benefits of providing something more in keeping with humanities needs with a lesser allergy rate. Or is this idea too repugnant for you?

    As for the use of animal excrement. Unless you spray it directly on the growing plants, its applied in the autumn which gives time for the weathering process to happen and it will be reduced to its finer particles. If one owns a horse for recreation or relaxation or donkey, what would you do with the piles of excrement at your stables, you still have to pick up from fields where the animals are grazing for most of the time. You prefer the idea of petrochemicals being used instead?

    Thank you for the comment, your wife banned from the kitchen. I hope your wife and your daughter will be reconciled. My dil has not changed in 30 years, I can see her changing now, she took a simple action as a personal snub. The rift her actions caused a deep rift in the family.
  • MikePfirrmanMikePfirrman Member Posts: 1,840 Member Member Posts: 1,840 Member
    As someone not vegan, but leaning into sustainability more and more, I find that alienating people or having Vegan purity tests is counterproductive. It turns folks off. And that's a shame.
  • MikePfirrmanMikePfirrman Member Posts: 1,840 Member Member Posts: 1,840 Member
    @janejellyroll -- completely agree. And the more I'm educated on veganism, the more I lean that way. But it's not because someone told me to or someone said I'm evil and guilted me into it. It's the internal moral compass that knows some of the dietary choices I've made aren't the most compassionate. And that same compassion needs to be directed at those exploring options for the right reasons, not criticism about them not doing more.

    My daughter has done a lot to educate me and I've done a lot to help her with food choices/nutritional choices. In addition to ethical considerations, there's more and more proof that a supplemented (just a few supplements) vegan diet is likely the healthiest diet out there. Vegan Omegas is a prime example of a product that was desperately needed for vegans/vegetarians like my daughter. Awesome development. My wife also takes Algae based omegas now as well. And, over time, I've gotten my meat and potatoes girl to be a lot more open to eating plant based several times a week.

    It's baby steps for some. But you don't scream at a baby when it takes its first steps because it didn't take 3 steps.
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