How much protein is needed to keep muscle?

Juggstar

Hey all, I was wondering what is the protein intake needed in order to keep muscle? I know that Scientists of the American College of Sports Medicine recommends 0.5 grams of protein x per pound of bodyweight to build muscle. I also heard the daily protein intake for the average sedentary man is 56g just to keep muscle. What amount of protein is needed in order to keep muscle and why? All help is appreciated.

threewins

It depends on how much exercise a person does, as well as the amount of nitrogen based material (anything in their body that contains nitrogen got there by consuming protein) in their body. The more nitrogen containing muscle+other stuff in your body, the more protein needs to be consumed.

Protein intake varies significantly by country as this graph shows.

ahoy_m8

One big factor is whether you are eating in a deficit (to lose fat) or a surplus (to gain mass). The risk of losing muscle in a surplus is pretty low, so you need less (DRI is 0.36g/lb ETA: corresponding to the 56g for average male you ref) than when deficit eating (~1g/lb).

Discussion:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24092765/
https://bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/protein-requirements-athletes

lynn_glenmont

ahoy_m8 wrote: »

One big factor is whether you are eating in a deficit (to lose fat) or a surplus (to gain mass). The risk of losing muscle in a surplus is pretty low, so you need less (DRI is 0.36g/lb ETA: corresponding to the 56g for average male you ref) than when deficit eating (~1g/lb).

Discussion:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24092765/
https://bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/protein-requirements-athletes

You've omitted a crucial factor in not losing muscle, which is using and, optimally, challenging your muscles. You can eat in a surplus and lie in bed all day and you will lose muscle.

Juggstar

I will stay with 0.5g x bodyweight because that is needed to gain muscle so I will use the same formula to keep it I appreciate it.

psuLemon

Juggstar wrote: »

I will stay with 0.5g x bodyweight because that is needed to gain muscle so I will use the same formula to keep it I appreciate it.

That would be under consumption of protein to even sustain during fat loss.


OP, its generally recommend to consume 1.5-2.2g/kg of weight. As you get leaner, it tends to move towards the higher end. And to the lower end if obese. A good rule of thumb is 1g/lb of goal weight. What is also very critical is a solid progressive overload resistance program. As noted earlier, you need to challenge your muscles sufficiently for growth.

What i am suggesting is backed by the two leading protein metabolism researchers in the world.

sijomial

Juggstar wrote: »

I will stay with 0.5g x bodyweight because that is needed to gain muscle so I will use the same formula to keep it I appreciate it.

Do remember you need more and get more benefit from a higher protein allowance in a deficit.

Don't compare your needs to someone maintaining or gaining weight.
Don't compare your needs to an average sedentary man if you are exercising.
Don't confuse adequate levels with optimal levels.

As you appear to be quite heavy from your profile then basing on your current weight may well make your actual intake OK for now but it's low when you get closer to goal weight. That's why using either goal weight or estimated lean mass as the basis for calculations are often recommended.

AnnPT77

Additional research-based info here:

https://examine.com/guides/protein-intake/

. . . plus a link to a "calulator" based on that research that will suggest amounts based on your size and situation:

https://examine.com/nutrition/protein-intake-calculator/

Jthanmyfitnesspal

@psuLemon I don't doubt that there are many leading protein metabolism researchers in the world that recommend 1.5-2.2g protein per kg of body weight. There's a bunch of other ones that think this is bonkers, and say you don't need more than about 0.5-1 g protein per kg of body weight. And the data is pretty unconvincing, with lots of studies done under a wide range of conditions and no universal consensus. So, what to do?

My point of view is that, particularly when cutting, your body wants a certain amount of fat and carb to fuel your activities. If you go too high in protein, it has to come out of carbs and fats. You can go by how you feel, to a large extent. Also, you don't have to hit the same macro breakdown every day, you can certainly allow it to vary.

psuLemon

Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »

@psuLemon I don't doubt that there are many leading protein metabolism researchers in the world that recommend 1.5-2.2g protein per kg of body weight. There's a bunch of other ones that think this is bonkers, and say you don't need more than about 0.5-1 g protein per kg of body weight. And the data is pretty unconvincing, with lots of studies done under a wide range of conditions and no universal consensus. So, what to do?

My point of view is that, particularly when cutting, your body wants a certain amount of fat and carb to fuel your activities. If you go too high in protein, it has to come out of carbs and fats. You can go by how you feel, to a large extent. Also, you don't have to hit the same macro breakdown every day, you can certainly allow it to vary.

There is a ton of data on protein requirements.... literally hundreds of studies and dozens of meta-analyses. Its one of the most studied areas. There is a strong consensus within the top researchers. And that is who i would take my advice from. How do we know that Dr Stuart Phillips and Dr. Brad Schoenfeld are the leading researchers in the field? Because their studies are referenced more than any other people in the world when it comes to protein research.

Anyways, yes, you need fats and no you don't need carbs (but carbs can improve performance and aid in muscle retention). The level needed is not very high either for fats. A person can easily consume 2.2g/kg of protein and still meet fats and carbs preferences. Even so, its a range. Being within that range is what is important if your goals is muscle retention or muscle building.

Ultimately, a person should align their consumption with their goals.

Jthanmyfitnesspal

psuLemon wrote: »

Ultimately, a person should align their consumption with their goals.

Yes! I'm suggesting people prioritize the goal of feeling well.

When I've under-eaten carbs and fats, I definitely have taken a hit in energy level, particularly when exercising. I've very open to hearing that others have a different experience.

Juggstar

Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »

@psuLemon I don't doubt that there are many leading protein metabolism researchers in the world that recommend 1.5-2.2g protein per kg of body weight. There's a bunch of other ones that think this is bonkers, and say you don't need more than about 0.5-1 g protein per kg of body weight. And the data is pretty unconvincing, with lots of studies done under a wide range of conditions and no universal consensus. So, what to do?

My point of view is that, particularly when cutting, your body wants a certain amount of fat and carb to fuel your activities. If you go too high in protein, it has to come out of carbs and fats. You can go by how you feel, to a large extent. Also, you don't have to hit the same macro breakdown every day, you can certainly allow it to vary.

I will go by this and stay with 0.5g x bodyweight at least I have a source to back me up and I gained muscle before doing this. I will use 0.5g x bodyweight to prove that is all you need to produce and maintain muscle with only 80% of maintenance calories while on a deficit.

psuLemon

Juggstar wrote: »

Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »

@psuLemon I don't doubt that there are many leading protein metabolism researchers in the world that recommend 1.5-2.2g protein per kg of body weight. There's a bunch of other ones that think this is bonkers, and say you don't need more than about 0.5-1 g protein per kg of body weight. And the data is pretty unconvincing, with lots of studies done under a wide range of conditions and no universal consensus. So, what to do?

My point of view is that, particularly when cutting, your body wants a certain amount of fat and carb to fuel your activities. If you go too high in protein, it has to come out of carbs and fats. You can go by how you feel, to a large extent. Also, you don't have to hit the same macro breakdown every day, you can certainly allow it to vary.

I will go by this and stay with 0.5g x bodyweight at least I have a source to back me up and I gained muscle before doing this. I will use 0.5g x bodyweight to prove that is all you need to produce and maintain muscle with only 80% of maintenance calories while on a deficit.

How do you plan to prove it? Are you getting multiple dexa scans?

If your concerned i didn't provide references, i can certainly do that. It aligns to examine.com. Or were you wanting us to confirm your assumption?

Ultimately, it's your decision and you don't have to prove anything to us.

http://www.education.auburn.edu/school-of-kinesiology/auburn-kineversity/5-questions-with-stuart-phillips-ph-d-about-protein-needs-and-exercise-science-research/

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/apnm-2015-0549

Mellouk89

psuLemon wrote: »

Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »

@psuLemon I don't doubt that there are many leading protein metabolism researchers in the world that recommend 1.5-2.2g protein per kg of body weight. There's a bunch of other ones that think this is bonkers, and say you don't need more than about 0.5-1 g protein per kg of body weight. And the data is pretty unconvincing, with lots of studies done under a wide range of conditions and no universal consensus. So, what to do?

My point of view is that, particularly when cutting, your body wants a certain amount of fat and carb to fuel your activities. If you go too high in protein, it has to come out of carbs and fats. You can go by how you feel, to a large extent. Also, you don't have to hit the same macro breakdown every day, you can certainly allow it to vary.

There is a ton of data on protein requirements.... literally hundreds of studies and dozens of meta-analyses. Its one of the most studied areas. There is a strong consensus within the top researchers. And that is who i would take my advice from. How do we know that Dr Stuart Phillips and Dr. Brad Schoenfeld are the leading researchers in the field? Because their studies are referenced more than any other people in the world when it comes to protein research.

Anyways, yes, you need fats and no you don't need carbs (but carbs can improve performance and aid in muscle retention). The level needed is not very high either for fats. A person can easily consume 2.2g/kg of protein and still meet fats and carbs preferences. Even so, its a range. Being within that range is what is important if your goals is muscle retention or muscle building.

Ultimately, a person should align their consumption with their goals.

It's definitely not "easy" to consume 2.2g/kg of protein without supplementing. In my case that's 160g, I would have to eat way more animal products.

I would have to go out of my way to do that and it would be a day-to-day worry. Assuming I don't supplement.

psuLemon

Mellouk89 wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »

@psuLemon I don't doubt that there are many leading protein metabolism researchers in the world that recommend 1.5-2.2g protein per kg of body weight. There's a bunch of other ones that think this is bonkers, and say you don't need more than about 0.5-1 g protein per kg of body weight. And the data is pretty unconvincing, with lots of studies done under a wide range of conditions and no universal consensus. So, what to do?

My point of view is that, particularly when cutting, your body wants a certain amount of fat and carb to fuel your activities. If you go too high in protein, it has to come out of carbs and fats. You can go by how you feel, to a large extent. Also, you don't have to hit the same macro breakdown every day, you can certainly allow it to vary.

There is a ton of data on protein requirements.... literally hundreds of studies and dozens of meta-analyses. Its one of the most studied areas. There is a strong consensus within the top researchers. And that is who i would take my advice from. How do we know that Dr Stuart Phillips and Dr. Brad Schoenfeld are the leading researchers in the field? Because their studies are referenced more than any other people in the world when it comes to protein research.

Anyways, yes, you need fats and no you don't need carbs (but carbs can improve performance and aid in muscle retention). The level needed is not very high either for fats. A person can easily consume 2.2g/kg of protein and still meet fats and carbs preferences. Even so, its a range. Being within that range is what is important if your goals is muscle retention or muscle building.

Ultimately, a person should align their consumption with their goals.

It's definitely not "easy" to consume 2.2g/kg of protein without supplementing. In my case that's 160g, I would have to eat way more animal products.

I would have to go out of my way to do that and it would be a day-to-day worry. Assuming I don't supplement.

Yes, and this is why there is a range of 1.5-2.2g/kg. So a 170 lb male would need 115-170g.

I am 165 lbs and i regularly eat 160g or more. I do eat a good amount of meat, but i also get 50-70g of fat and 30-60g of fiber. The point was, even with the higher protein, it won't crowd out fats or carbs unless you are trying to cut very aggressively like running PSMF.