Finding a happy medium?

ReenieHJ

My vegan dd is home for 10 days. I've always been intrigued and willing to go vegetarian, maybe even vegan. So my dd and I got into a deep discussion about acceptable, healthy foods, vs. what's allowed/not allowed, ingredients, processed, etc. She knows a lot about a lot of it and I am just barely dipping my toes in. But it's very confusing to me.
My brain seems to want either all or nothing. Currently my head is spinning with all the newfound knowledge and areas to explore.

I can see myself cutting out meat entirely because all I eat now are bits of chicken. But the dairy part would be challenging. So I'm thinking of making the complete break from meat, then go from there. For me, it'd be mostly an ethical decision, which leaves me feeling hypocritical for buying meat for dh and my dogs.

For all you vegetarians out there, how do you handle the different feelings, expectations from others, years and years of habits, and everything else while making a change like this?

Ideally, if I could make these changes for good, I'd:
go entirely plant-based
stop using any un-natural sugars
cut out my coffee

AndreaTamira

I never had big problems with how people reacted to me not eating animal products. There are some things I do to help:

* Always bring food to meeting where there may be food, enough to share. Means I have something to eat for sure, and that nobody feels annoyed, guilty or worried when I have nothing.

* Avoid the words "I am egan" till I know people well. Saying "I dont eat animal products" seems to mitigate the anger some people feel against vegans and still gets the point across.

* Stay friendly and approachable about vegan issues but dont usually bring things up first. Will argue my point, though, if people started on the topic.

---

For myself:

* I dont hate on processed foods. Eating those can be nice and they are VERY useful when going to bbq parties and such. - Also, if you want a meal more similar to in your pre-veggie times.

* I took some time finding the plant milks I like the best and did not give up on the search.

* Accept that perfection is not always possible. My cat, axolotl, fish (all rescue pets) need to eat. Sadly two out of those are obligate carnivores...- It's better to do good but imperfectly than to do nothing.

ReenieHJ

@AndreaTamira
Thank you for your reply. I especially appreciated your very last comment and it struck home with me. I don't know why I've always been that 'all or nothing' type of person so I need to find that happy medium that works for me. I might have to copy that quote and tack it on my fridge to remember.

kshama2001

Paging
@janejellyroll @AnnPT77

kshama2001

ReenieHJ wrote: »

My vegan dd is home for 10 days. I've always been intrigued and willing to go vegetarian, maybe even vegan. So my dd and I got into a deep discussion about acceptable, healthy foods, vs. what's allowed/not allowed, ingredients, processed, etc. She knows a lot about a lot of it and I am just barely dipping my toes in. But it's very confusing to me.
My brain seems to want either all or nothing. Currently my head is spinning with all the newfound knowledge and areas to explore.

I can see myself cutting out meat entirely because all I eat now are bits of chicken. But the dairy part would be challenging. So I'm thinking of making the complete break from meat, then go from there. For me, it'd be mostly an ethical decision, which leaves me feeling hypocritical for buying meat for dh and my dogs.

For all you vegetarians out there, how do you handle the different feelings, expectations from others, years and years of habits, and everything else while making a change like this?

Ideally, if I could make these changes for good, I'd:

1. go entirely plant-based
2. stop using any un-natural sugars
3. cut out my coffee

Just curious as to why you feel the need to make things harder on yourself by also implementing # 2 and 3? How about letting being veg* settle in for a few months before tackling sugars and coffee as well?

ReenieHJ

kshama2001 wrote: »

ReenieHJ wrote: »

My vegan dd is home for 10 days. I've always been intrigued and willing to go vegetarian, maybe even vegan. So my dd and I got into a deep discussion about acceptable, healthy foods, vs. what's allowed/not allowed, ingredients, processed, etc. She knows a lot about a lot of it and I am just barely dipping my toes in. But it's very confusing to me.
My brain seems to want either all or nothing. Currently my head is spinning with all the newfound knowledge and areas to explore.

I can see myself cutting out meat entirely because all I eat now are bits of chicken. But the dairy part would be challenging. So I'm thinking of making the complete break from meat, then go from there. For me, it'd be mostly an ethical decision, which leaves me feeling hypocritical for buying meat for dh and my dogs.

For all you vegetarians out there, how do you handle the different feelings, expectations from others, years and years of habits, and everything else while making a change like this?

Ideally, if I could make these changes for good, I'd:

1. go entirely plant-based
2. stop using any un-natural sugars
3. cut out my coffee

Just curious as to why you feel the need to make things harder on yourself by also implementing # 2 and 3? How about letting being veg* settle in for a few months before tackling sugars and coffee as well?

I swear it's my all or nothing mentality.
But those are changes I'd *like* to make, ideally. That's not saying it's going to happen anytime soon. I'll likely change to vegetarian eating first, then make small changes of less dairy products, less sugar, as I go along. Trouble is I don't drink coffee without sugar so those 2 may have to go out at the same time.

AnnPT77

ReenieHJ wrote: »

My vegan dd is home for 10 days. I've always been intrigued and willing to go vegetarian, maybe even vegan. So my dd and I got into a deep discussion about acceptable, healthy foods, vs. what's allowed/not allowed, ingredients, processed, etc. She knows a lot about a lot of it and I am just barely dipping my toes in. But it's very confusing to me.
My brain seems to want either all or nothing. Currently my head is spinning with all the newfound knowledge and areas to explore.

I can see myself cutting out meat entirely because all I eat now are bits of chicken. But the dairy part would be challenging. So I'm thinking of making the complete break from meat, then go from there. For me, it'd be mostly an ethical decision, which leaves me feeling hypocritical for buying meat for dh and my dogs.

For all you vegetarians out there, how do you handle the different feelings, expectations from others, years and years of habits, and everything else while making a change like this?

Ideally, if I could make these changes for good, I'd:
go entirely plant-based
stop using any un-natural sugars
cut out my coffee

I'm only ovo-lacto vegetarian, so I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer (even after eating this way for 46+ years). Even beyond that, I mostly don't much have feelings (about most things, not just a feelings-y gal), so there's another disqualification.

Others' expectations? Pretty much their problem, IMO. I make it very clear to people that I'm vegetarian, when I think it might matter, so as not to cause them unnecessary embarassment or distress. (For example, if someone invites me over for dinner, I point out my weird diet immediately, offer to bring a veggie dish, explain how this weirdness can work OK in a context where others are eating meat, and that sort of thing, paying careful attention to cues in the conversation that suggest that other person has certain feelings. Hoping to hide my vegetarianism and get through the meal is a sure route to distress for the host.)

Years and years of habits? Well, I only had 18 years of habits when I made the switch. But I made a decision, and stuck with it. I don't think it's a decision others need to make. (I was married to a meat-eater and hunter for a couple of decades, without conflict over this at all (I'm widowed, not divorced, BTW). ) Because I don't expect others to share my choices, I don't feel conflicted or hypocritical about buying or cooking meat for other humans (though I don't like cooking things I can't taste, as a practical consideration). Meat-eating is, IMO, a thing that evolution shaped us for. We can make other choices, obviously, in today's world. We're omnivores. That's flexible.

In my book, it would be reprehensible to put obligate carnivores, like some of our pets, on a meatless diet. How I think of it: They are expressing their role in nature, without malice. We make them dependent on us. That carries responsibilities. If I couldn't treat them in the most decent way practical, I shouldn't have those pets.

IMO, the biggest thing to worry about is figuring out how to get adequate nutrition. It isn't hard, but it's different. It will require a bit more attention, especially at first. Good reference: https://veganhealth.org/

I don't encourage other people to become vegetarian or vegan, unless they feel truly comitted morally or ethically. There are two sides to my feeling this way.

On one side, It's slightly more difficult socially and logistically. Social sensitivity is required (not my long suit, frankly). After a period of time, it seems, one's microbiome and digestive environment generally adapt, and eating a meat product (even accidentally) can produce digestive distress (this will be individual). If someone is the kind of person who will occasionally eat meat to please others or avoid conflict, I'd strongly encourage them to keep eating a little, every couple of weeks at least. Reducing meat has impact, only slightly less impact than eliminating it. (I'm not so much an all or nothing thinker.) Sometimes, especially when traveling in very meat-centric cultures, vegetarianism becomes even more difficult, and can even be very rude. Not a reason not to do it, but it's a consideration.

On the second side, my personal belief (which no one is obligated to share) is that we well-off (in global terms) developed world folks are unavoidably little moving bundles of global harm: Ecological harm, economic harm, and more. We benefit from systems that have those side effects, and that hide the consequences from us in very significant ways. I think that good people recognize when they are causing harm, and do things to mitigate the harm . . . and, faced with so many forms of it, it makes sense to start with things that are easiest for that individual. That won't be stopping eating animals, for some people, but they may do other good things I can't wrap my feeble brain around. I'm not going to question their ethics, because I'm not sinless, can't be sinless. So, no stone-throwing.

For myself, I feel quite strongly that my state of mind is largely a result of my decisions about what I *want* my state of mind to be (absent extreme trauma or disease causing disruptions to that, of course). So, whether I'm upset, angry, guilty, a black and white thinker, etc., etc. - those are all decisions. Mostly, I can decide to be different (though accomplishing that can take time and serious work.)

If there's a gap between my aspirations for myself, and my actions, that's a decision I'm making, too . . . like it or not. My behaviors, not my aspirations, express who I truly am, and I need to take responsibility for that. (That doesn't IMO imply a need to feel guilty. It implies a need to keep working in a positive direction, as I perceive positive.) Narrowing that aspirations/actions gap is a lifelong work, and I'll ultimately fail to close it (because having no aspirations at all doesn't sound that great, y'know?). That presumed failure is OK - gotta be.

I'd noticed this thread earlier, was leaning toward not replying, as I don't feel like I have anything potentially helpful to say. Having been whistled into the thread, the balance tipped into commenting. I still think the comments aren't helpful. Apologies for that - I got nuthin'. Well, nuthin' but words. Always got words. 🤣

ReenieHJ

@AnnPT77 You always have lots of premium advice and words of wisdom!! Thank you for your input. AND the link!!

janejellyroll

I've been vegan for over thirteen years now. For me, it was something I contemplated for a while and when I did it, I just jumped right in. That's one approach. There are also people who approach it in stages. Sometimes they'll do it by giving up the things that seem most immediately objectionable and unjustified. Other people will give up things in perceived level of difficulty. For example, I knew someone who first went to all plant-based dinners and lunches because it was hard for them to think of a breakfast that didn't involve animal products. Once they felt more comfortable, they made the adjustment for breakfast as well. You don't have to satisfy anyone's time table but your own.

Anecdotally, from the accounts I've heard, I can't say that one method seems to lead to longer term success than the other. I think it's more about finding the approach that works well for an individual.

Quite honestly, I went vegan in a rather petty attempt to prove that it was too difficult and that I didn't need to feel morally obligated to do it. I had been feeling worse and worse about how animals were being treated, but I perceived veganism as impossible for me. So I told myself I'd do it for two weeks, basically to prove that I didn't need to feel bad about NOT doing it. But the two weeks went by with barely a hiccup. It turns out that the foods I thought I couldn't live without were rather easily replaced by other things and it felt much better to live in a way that was more aligned with my ethical positions than it did to eat string cheese.

So my feelings: well, pretty much chagrin that I'd made such a big deal out of it.

Expectations from others were not much of a factor for me. The only person whose opinion on the matter was relevant to me was my husband, who did not go vegan and has no interest in doing so. Having a vegan partner would doubtlessly make household life easier and I won't deny there would be a certain appeal in sharing convictions on something that matters so much to me. But he predated the veganism and is incredibly dear to me and we've found a way to share a household happily. He wishes I could share some food experiences with him, I wish he'd wake up with a different position on animal exploitation. Just about every marriage, I imagine, has SOME kind of "I wish" and he fulfills so many of my other wishes for a mate, I can't be greedy!

As far as everyone else: My family and friends know that I'm vegan, many co-workers and casual associates don't. I'll bring it up if it seems directly relevant, otherwise not. The people who know are either supportive or don't care. People on the internet can be more aggressive or hostile about it, but that's the way it is with EVERYTHING. It's not limited to veganism.

As far as habits, all my habits involving animal exploitation could either be eliminated or adapted. There may be moments of keen disappointment, like a cake that looks really delicious. Oh no, everyone else is having this cake and I'm NOT because I don't WANT the cake, but obviously I DO want the cake . . . In my experience, continued adherence makes it easier. I heard someone on a podcast say one time that if you have the courage to make the big decisions about what matters to you, then all the small decisions are made. For me, veganism was the BIG DECISION that the process that brought the cake (or the chimichanga or the latte etc etc) to my plate was not acceptable and I was unwilling to support it. I acknowledge my disappointment at the loss of that particular sensation and move on. In the early days, I would always make sure I had some treats at work so I didn't have to feel like I was "going without." If there was a cake at work, you could be sure I'd be making myself a big vegan cake that weekend! I no longer have to do that. In a way, it's a lot of the same sort of adjustments that long term weight management involves. Acknowledge your desire, know the type of person you want to be, and find a way to meet the desire in a way that still honors your goals.

This is another reason why I usually don't recommend that people try to go vegan and make other huge changes at the same time. It was a lot easier to say to myself "I'll have this candy instead" or "I'll have these chips instead" than it would have been to say "no candy period." That's just me.

My husband and I usually grocery shop separately because that's just how we roll. But if I am going to the store and he asks for some milk or meat, I will get it for him because it feels incredibly petty to allow our joint funds to purchase animal products but draw some line at actually swiping the credit card myself. And I'm not going to ban animal foods all together because you just don't do that to another adult. Our dog gets meat as well. I personally am convinced by the evidence that dogs can safely eat a meat-free diet, but my husband isn't and I don't believe I should make unilateral decisions for a dog we care for together. Some vegans would have issues with both of the above, other vegans make similar choices. That's the thing about veganism -- it's an attempt to live a life based on a coherent ethical position in the midst of a society that has animal exploitation completely interwoven into it at multiple levels. As a result, vegans take a multiplicity of positions on some situations and debates are frequent. Some vegans even think it's wrong to be in the same room as people eating meat without making it uncomfortable -- that's their moral conviction, that they have a duty to stand up.

If YOU would feel hypocritical buying meat in those situations, it's worth exploring why. My take: even if you still wind up participating in some elements of animal exploitation, would it be worth it to reduce your other participation, the stuff you know you can give up? For me, the answer would be YES. I would not feel like a better person if I began eating bacon just because my dog eats meat. I would feel worse, I would feel like I was taking the position that if we can't do everything then it doesn't matter who we hurt.

I'm not arguing you take my position, I'm saying you should think it through and figure out what your values are and what matters to you. What do you think is wrong about exploiting animals for food or other purposes? What level of participation in that are you willing to accept? What does it mean to say animals deserve a certain level of treatment and what does it mean to say it doesn't matter how we treat them because they exist to satisfy our desires? You don't have to have answers to those questions before you go vegan -- I didn't and my answers have evolved over time as I've thought about the issues. But thinking about these questions will help you determine what the limits and guidelines of your veganism (if you choose to adopt it) are and it makes navigating individual situations easier.

Veganism got easier for me when I realized it wasn't a situation of "all or nothing" or fitting my life to a list of rules, but instead it was me answering a question of who I was, what I was willing to do to others, and whether or not I thought animals were individuals with a legitimate interest in their own life and a real ability to feel pain and distress on a level that is worth acknowledging. After that, a lot of decisions just fell into place. Others, like "how do I deal with non-vegan loved ones?" and "what should we feed domestic cats?" don't have great, easy, comforting answers. But I mean, isn't that life? Most of us are already trying to make sure our actions reflect our values. Veganism is just taking the values many of us already have and applies them to animals.

(Okay, sorry I wrote SOOOO much but this hit on one of my passions).

janejellyroll

ReenieHJ wrote: »

@AnnPT77 You always have lots of premium advice and words of wisdom!! Thank you for your input. AND the link!!

That website is first rate, it's my go-to for evidence-based vegan nutritional information.

AnnPT77

janejellyroll wrote: »

ReenieHJ wrote: »

@AnnPT77 You always have lots of premium advice and words of wisdom!! Thank you for your input. AND the link!!

That website is first rate, it's my go-to for evidence-based vegan nutritional information.

FTR, I got it from one of your posts, have used it multiple times since. Very level-headed, well-organized, factual. Good stuff.

CierraEstelle

When I decided to try out vegetarianism, I made it a point to not put pressure on myself. I told myself, I'd give it a try but if I really wanted meat at some point, I'll just have it, and doing so wouldn't mean I have to give up and quit trying to be a vegetarian at that point either. I wanted to be easy on myself.
That was 6 years ago, I never ended up wanting any meat and I'm happier as a vegetarian than I ever was eating meat. Some things that help me: I love Mexican food, and you can easily replace the meat in it with beans and/or veggies in just about any dish. I've also grown to love some faux meats, like tofurky deli slices, impossible & beyond burgers, and field roast sausages. Lastly, having the freedom to eat some dairy makes things a lot easier for me, especially when eating out. I'm not saying eating dairy is the best choice, but for some people having that flexibility is what allows them to stay vegetarian instead of trying to adhere to strict veganism all of the time (where you may fail and give up) Vegetarianism is pretty much my moderate, healthy balance. I eat vegan as much as I can, but I give myself flexibility.

ReenieHJ

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to reply and offer a lot of valuable first rate info!! My main point from all this is to be flexible, do what's right for me, and change this stubborn mindset of 'all or nothing' I seem to have. Looking at everything I currently eat, I do mostly vegetarian now so that'd be a mere blip to change. The vegan changes will need to come gradually. I'll start adding more sources of protein and more variety of veggies just to see where it takes me. And I won't be a hypocrite buying/feeding others meat.

Thank you again! BTW, learning a lot from that site. I did a search online for something a couple days ago and ended up on the PETA site; it kind of spun my mind around. I just have to approach this with common sense and a flexible attitude.

AnnPT77

ReenieHJ wrote: »

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to reply and offer a lot of valuable first rate info!! My main point from all this is to be flexible, do what's right for me, and change this stubborn mindset of 'all or nothing' I seem to have. Looking at everything I currently eat, I do mostly vegetarian now so that'd be a mere blip to change. The vegan changes will need to come gradually. I'll start adding more sources of protein and more variety of veggies just to see where it takes me. And I won't be a hypocrite buying/feeding others meat.

Thank you again! BTW, learning a lot from that site. I did a search online for something a couple days ago and ended up on the PETA site; it kind of spun my mind around. I just have to approach this with common sense and a flexible attitude.

Sadly, there are a number of very biased vegetarian/vegan advocacy sites that do *not* provide accurate, science-based information. Some even make claims such as that fully plant-based eaters require less protein than omnivorous eaters, or that plants contain every nutrient so you don't have to pay attention to get good nutrition. Vegetarian or fully plant-based eating can be very healthful, but it's not magical. The normal rules of nutrition still apply, as you know!

Unforunately, some of the biased, even propagandistic, sites come up high on results lists for certain searches - caution is necessary.

Personally, I really resent biased sites that cherry pick and misrepresent the truth. I think they make it look like vegetarians, vegans, and other plant-based eaters are not very bright. Not helpful, as well as not useful.

Best wishes on your new and evolving path!

Diatonic12

Reenie, you can choose by an act of your will to leave the All or Nothing approach to food in the dust. We learn these things in childhood. We observe others saying and believing there's nothing but all or nothing. We identify with their narrative and define our life by it. We can rid ourselves of it. It's their story but it doesn't have to be ours.

It's based on perfectionism. We rarely get all but get mostly nothing from the All or Nothing thinking about food. It affects every area of our life. It goes far beyond food.

All of the dieting followed by making plans for the next food explosion that's going to happen. Eating all of the things. It's a self-perpetuating cycle that can become a self-induced food prison with food. A non-stop looper that results in starting over and over and over again.

We can get off this merry-go-round.