Any broken the cycle of early morning waking?

dave_in_ni

This is something I have suffered from for the past 2-3 years now which is around the time I started lifting, and if anything it is getting worse. I am a natural earlier riser anyway, I have never even as a child slept later than 7am, (40) now, so I have no expectations of sleeping any later than this but if I could sleep to 7am I would be happy.

Come about 7pm I am getting tired, by 8 pm I am ready for sleep, I will typically go to bed between 8-9pm 7 days per week. I will typically wake anywhere between 2 am - 3.30 am and that's me done sleeping, (2.30am this morning) I am not tired nor is it anxious thinking keeping me awake, I am just ready to get up, I only need between 6-7 hours sleep.

I have tried sleep restriction where I went to bed at midnight, the plan I should wake between 6-7am, Nope 3am tired couldn't get back to sleep. I've been on nights out where I am in about 1am again awake no later than 4am.

Obviously don't do any of the basic things like caffeine after lunchtime, no naps etc, I've tried melatonin, magnesium, cbd, to name but a few, the issue is all these things just help to fall asleep but don't help the length of sleep. M doctor even gave me a device to wear to monitor if it was sleep apnea causing issues but all came back fine, the only thing which could be causing issues is my heart rate goes really low when I am sleep, according to my apple watch 35-40bpm.

Anyone been through this?

CardinalComb

I'm waking up earlier as I age. Usually 5-5:30am. this morning 3:45. I think I just don't like sleeping for long periods and I also like the quiet morning time before the sun comes up. I'll take a nap during the weekend to catch up on sleep and I'm fine. I go to bed at 9pm and asleep by 10pm.

charmmeth

This may be no help at all, but there is some quite interesting historical research that suggests that normal sleeping patterns in medieval / early modern Europe were 8 or 9 p.m. to sometime after midnight, then a period of activity, and then a second sleep. It is how prayer in monasteries was arranged, but it seems that a lot of other people did it too. What happens if you get up and read for an hour or so? Do you find yourself becoming sleepy again an hour or so later? Can you go back to bed for an hour or so at 4:30 or 5:00?

alexmose

So there is a thing called second sleep as @charmmeth explained. For me, it's stress that keeps me up. I can only suggest finding something to do. For me that was snacking but perhaps we can find something more productive?

charmmeth

alexmose wrote: »

So there is a thing called second sleep as @charmmeth explained. For me, it's stress that keeps me up. I can only suggest finding something to do. For me that was snacking but perhaps we can find something more productive?

I do the crossword in the Guardian (British newspaper), which uploads to the app at around 1:30 or 2 a.m. It's not productive exactly, but involves no calories.

cmriverside

charmmeth wrote: »

This may be no help at all, but there is some quite interesting historical research that suggests that normal sleeping patterns in medieval / early modern Europe were 8 or 9 p.m. to sometime after midnight, then a period of activity, and then a second sleep. It is how prayer in monasteries was arranged, but it seems that a lot of other people did it too. What happens if you get up and read for an hour or so? Do you find yourself becoming sleepy again an hour or so later? Can you go back to bed for an hour or so at 4:30 or 5:00?

Yeah, this.


I don't think waking at 2-3AM is particularly unusual. I have had many periods in my life where that happened nearly every night and I couldn't go back to sleep.

I learned that the best strategy was to get up, have a hot chocolate or a piece of toast, and maybe browse the internet or watch (light) TV for a half hour to an hour and then I can always go back to sleep.

scarlett_k

It's a type of insomnia called early waking insomnia. Usually mine is worse in the months with longer daylight hours although it's not been so bad this year. Keeping a good regular sleep routine with good sleep hygiene is very important but it won't cure it. If I wake up now I just get up. Depending on how early it is I'll either go sit on the sofa with the dogs for a bit or I'll just take them out for their walks. Then I might sleep a bit more later. Just lying in bed doesn't help though, I know that much!

Theoldguy1

cmriverside wrote: »

charmmeth wrote: »

This may be no help at all, but there is some quite interesting historical research that suggests that normal sleeping patterns in medieval / early modern Europe were 8 or 9 p.m. to sometime after midnight, then a period of activity, and then a second sleep. It is how prayer in monasteries was arranged, but it seems that a lot of other people did it too. What happens if you get up and read for an hour or so? Do you find yourself becoming sleepy again an hour or so later? Can you go back to bed for an hour or so at 4:30 or 5:00?

Yeah, this.


I don't think waking at 2-3AM is particularly unusual. I have had many periods in my life where that happened nearly every night and I couldn't go back to sleep.

I learned that the best strategy was to get up, have a hot chocolate or a piece of toast, and maybe browse the internet or watch (light) TV for a half hour to an hour and then I can always go back to sleep.

May work for you but most sleep experts aren't high on looking at screens right before trying to sleep.

cmriverside

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

cmriverside wrote: »

charmmeth wrote: »

This may be no help at all, but there is some quite interesting historical research that suggests that normal sleeping patterns in medieval / early modern Europe were 8 or 9 p.m. to sometime after midnight, then a period of activity, and then a second sleep. It is how prayer in monasteries was arranged, but it seems that a lot of other people did it too. What happens if you get up and read for an hour or so? Do you find yourself becoming sleepy again an hour or so later? Can you go back to bed for an hour or so at 4:30 or 5:00?

Yeah, this.


I don't think waking at 2-3AM is particularly unusual. I have had many periods in my life where that happened nearly every night and I couldn't go back to sleep.

I learned that the best strategy was to get up, have a hot chocolate or a piece of toast, and maybe browse the internet or watch (light) TV for a half hour to an hour and then I can always go back to sleep.

May work for you but most sleep experts aren't high on looking at screens right before trying to sleep.

Believe me, he knows that.



I think the biggest thing is to not pathologize it my head. Like I don't lay there in bed thinking, "OHNOES I can't sleep. Again. What is wrong with me? I'll never get better, " and on and on. It's just something that happens, it won't hurt me, my body will make me sleep when I really need it and making it something to worry about doesn't help, it just aggravates it. If it's stress related, then I need to work on the source of the stress.

The OP has had multiple threads about this, he knows about sleep hygiene, dark rooms, screen time, white noise, setting a sleep schedule, not exercising before bed, watching caffeine and alcohol, etc.

Diatonic12

Anxiety from working too hard, a job that stretches you to the outer limits can rob you of your sleep.

richardgavel

Have you tried gradually adjusting your sleep time rather than trying to make the shift in one large chunk, when you tried going to bed at midnight? Your body might be more receptive to the change.

dave_in_ni

charmmeth wrote: »

This may be no help at all, but there is some quite interesting historical research that suggests that normal sleeping patterns in medieval / early modern Europe were 8 or 9 p.m. to sometime after midnight, then a period of activity, and then a second sleep. It is how prayer in monasteries was arranged, but it seems that a lot of other people did it too. What happens if you get up and read for an hour or so? Do you find yourself becoming sleepy again an hour or so later? Can you go back to bed for an hour or so at 4:30 or 5:00?

If I wake say 3am, I'll listen to a podcast or something in bed, By the time the alarm goes off at 5am I could fall asleep again but have to get up, then you're knackered all day, you are looking forward to bed at 8-9pm you think this is gonna be an epic sleep but alas same thing happens again

dave_in_ni

I'm thinking perhaps the best solution is just to accept this is how it is at the moment and I can't do a damn thing to change it so just accept it and stop stressing about it.

jklein9100

Same exact thing has happened with me since I started lifting. Same exact pattern.

B_Plus_Effort

there is nothing wrong with you (not saying that you said there was, you know what I mean), when I'm in shape I go to bed around midnight wake up at 4 am fully rested, spoke to my doctors about it they agree if you are rested that's all the sleep you need, if I fall out of shape do to injury or gyms closed / California fires unhealthy air quality stuff like that, I tend to sleep more, and worse I may wake up not fully rested, so figure out what works for you and don't adhere to any "norms"

dave_in_ni

jklein9100 wrote: »

Same exact thing has happened with me since I started lifting. Same exact pattern.

Very odd indeed.

kshama2001

charmmeth wrote: »

This may be no help at all, but there is some quite interesting historical research that suggests that normal sleeping patterns in medieval / early modern Europe were 8 or 9 p.m. to sometime after midnight, then a period of activity, and then a second sleep. It is how prayer in monasteries was arranged, but it seems that a lot of other people did it too. What happens if you get up and read for an hour or so? Do you find yourself becoming sleepy again an hour or so later? Can you go back to bed for an hour or so at 4:30 or 5:00?

Last night when I was awake @ 3 AM I thought of this and read this in order to help me fall back asleep:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours