Thoracic mobility and its impact on squats and deadlifts

Speakeasy76

I started physical therapy again yesterday, this time for my shoulder/neck issues instead of my lumbar spine. She told me that I have pretty significant scapular hypermobility, but limited upper thoracic mobility and some cervical hypermobility with extension. Yay! This is in addition to issues with my lumbar spine, which I have been focusing on a lot more because that's where my pain began and honestly doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used to.

Because of the lumbar spine problems, I've been focusing on glute strength and activation before workouts, and core stability/engagement. I also do some overall mobility exercises and added in some ankle mobility exercises more recently as well (right ankle especially, with some mild right knee pain). Anyway, I've not been progressing in squats and deadlifts like I think I should, especially now that my glutes are a lot stronger. I am able to squat just below parallel without pain, but am now wondering how my thoracic mobility is impacting my ability to progress.

I had heard about limitations in thoracic mobility could impact squats and I was acutely aware that that could be an issue with me, but honestly it felt like just one more thing for me worry about with all my other body issues. Seriously, I am messed up from my neck to my ankle, with some stuff in between, and could easily spend 30 minutes on pre-hab before my workouts.

I am of course doing the exercises that my PT has given me, along with the other things I had learned from my previous PT for my lumbar spine. I guess my question is, has anyone else had this issue, what did you do to help, and DID it help with squats and deadlifts?

Chieflrg

I would not hazard your thorasic problems(if in fact you do have anything substantial) has any impact on your squats or deads progress.

Glad to hear you can squat at parallel pain free, btw.

If your focus is on glute strength instead of squat or DL progress, this is more than likely part of the issue. Both are much more than just glute strength and I wouldn't necessarily expect either to go like gang busters just because you are performing extra glute work.

I would first look at your programming. If you care to detail your complete program and training history, I'd be happy to glance over. Include volume, frequency, means of overload.

ninerbuff

Agree with Chieflrg. What's your program look like?

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Speakeasy76

Chieflrg wrote: »

I would not hazard your thorasic problems(if in fact you do have anything substantial) has any impact on your squats or deads progress.

Glad to hear you can squat at parallel pain free, btw.

If your focus is on glute strength instead of squat or DL progress, this is more than likely part of the issue. Both are much more than just glute strength and I wouldn't necessarily expect either to go like gang busters just because you are performing extra glute work.

I would first look at your programming. If you care to detail your complete program and training history, I'd be happy to glance over. Include volume, frequency, means of overload.

Thanks for responding. I am pretty sure something in my thoracic spine is impacting my shoulder, and the PT was like "WOW!" about my scapular-area weakness/hypermobility and was wondering if I had other joints like that (Not really). That wasn't surprising, as when I've gone to bodywork-type conferences for work, I'm often the subject of 'Wow, would you come look at this!" in regards to some area on my back. Just be forewarned, I am not concise when sharing information, so you may regret asking .

I started getting into heavy lifting maybe about 3 years ago, starting with the New Rules for Lifting for Women. After that, I did the Strong Curves gym program (3 total body workouts per week, with more emphasis on glutes), then after that progressed to Bret Contreras' latest book, Glute Lab. I completed both the intermediate and advanced programs that were meant to be 4 days a week, but I did them 3 days (same concept as Strong curves pretty much as far as frequency). So, I started that maybe January 2020, and completed in November or December? Each int/adv had 3 phases, with 4 different workouts in each phase. I will say that up until about 1-1 1/2 years ago I swapped out a strength training session one day/week for total body Barre-type class. I also wasn't completely new to strength training as I had been stuff for at least a couple of years prior to this, but NROL was my first real heavy lifting/progressive overload training program.

The Glute Lab programs in the book were rotated every 4 weeks and would be considered more well-rounded programs, I guess. There was some kind of heavier compound lower body and upper body lifts at the beginning, alternating between moves like hip thrusts, some squat or lunge variation, and maybe some deadlift. Once it was at the advanced phase, there were techniques like pyramids, dropsets, and pause reps, for example. Upper body moves were things like chin-ups (or as close to it as I could get)bench presses etc. Rep/volume/set ranges varied from low (like 3,4 5 * 5), medium and even high. There was also some kind of hamstring exercise (if deadlifts weren't in the program) and accessory glute work. I'd also throw in some arm accessory work for maybe 1-2 exercises. The very last program was more hip thrust focused (with those being performed every day). I would add weight or reps with the heavier compound lifts, or at least try to, every week.

I started a DUP based on the info in the book, with back squat/chin ups as my first focus (now on my 3rd week of focusing on hip thrusts/bench press again). I include a hip thrust or deadlift in at least 2 of the workouts for maintenance, and structure the rest of my exercises like the ones in the program. At the end of last month here was where my squats were: 115 lb (including barbell) X 4 (that was really hard and I wasn't ready for it), then I did 105 lb X 5 X 3 sets. I did 80 lb 4 sets of 10 another day, and 65 lb 3 sets of 12. EVen though deads weren't my focus, I was doing 75 lb for 10 reps, 80 * 8 the month before. This month I've been doing squats once per week for 3 sets of 10, but they're in "maintenance" so haven't been focusing on progressing that. I've kept the weight the same, but do feel stronger and/or that my form is better. Just for reference if this helps anything, I hip thrusted 215 lb for up to 10 reps X 1 (was going for 6, but did AMRAP for the last set of 4). I also did 85 lb bench press for 5-6 reps X 4, but that was tough. Next week is my go all-out on my focus lifts. FWIW, I"m getting stuck on being able to do an unassisted dead hang chin-ups, too, but I'm almost positive now that's it's because of what's going on with my weaker smaller back muscles around the scapula. Did one last week after some gym member encouragement, but that's been it.

I've been dealing with chronic aches and pains for years, most significantly my lumbar spine which basically has signs of osteoarthritis at age 44 (and before then). I've been overweight at some times in my life, but haven't for the last 8-9 years, so I can't even attribute it to that. Sometimes I feel like my body is broken and get discouraged, and then others I try to pretend "everything's fine" and push through...but have been telling myself that is most likely the opposite way to progress.

Chieflrg

Okay a lot in there but some key things like volume is missing.

One, I'm not dismissing your pain. I think with more advanced programing tailored to you including better load management I'd hazard you probably wouldn't experience itso generously. Especially when you are doing AMRAPs as those really aren't helpful in training compared to other options.

Where hip thrusts can be a viable option for hypertrophy, they have a extremely low ROM and I would expect deadlifts or squats to ramp up from H.T. exclusively unless your lockout was suspect and I still think there are better options to program first, second, etc...

The old saying if you want to get better at squatting....then do more squatting. Now that wouldn't be the same squat but some variations to allow for recovery within a well written program.

Right off the bat without knowing your response to training it appears that lowering your intensity for volume and trying more specific variations to the lifts you want to improve would be a good choice.

Speakeasy76

Chieflrg wrote: »

Okay a lot in there but some key things like volume is missing.

One, I'm not dismissing your pain. I think with more advanced programing tailored to you including better load management I'd hazard you probably wouldn't experience itso generously. Especially when you are doing AMRAPs as those really aren't helpful in training compared to other options.

Where hip thrusts can be a viable option for hypertrophy, they have a extremely low ROM and I would expect deadlifts or squats to ramp up from H.T. exclusively unless your lockout was suspect and I still think there are better options to program first, second, etc...

The old saying if you want to get better at squatting....then do more squatting. Now that wouldn't be the same squat but some variations to allow for recovery within a well written program.

Right off the bat without knowing your response to training it appears that lowering your intensity for volume and trying more specific variations to the lifts you want to improve would be a good choice.

Thank you for your help! I was thinking I was writing this out that I'm not working with squats and deads enough to see quicker progress. I do feel like I'm getting decent lockout with the HT's and I do them with a posterior pelvic tilt. I actually like them because I feel I can do them and they don't kill me the next day , but did think they'd help with squats and deads more.

What I'd really like to do is work directly with a physical therapist who's also and athletic or personal trainer, or with that kind of angle. Unfortunately what I end up doing is calling a local PT chain place that takes my insurance and get the appointment that works with my schedule. Not saying they haven't helped because they definitely have, but all the (4) that I've had aren't lifters.

ninerbuff

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

Chieflrg wrote: »

Okay a lot in there but some key things like volume is missing.

One, I'm not dismissing your pain. I think with more advanced programing tailored to you including better load management I'd hazard you probably wouldn't experience itso generously. Especially when you are doing AMRAPs as those really aren't helpful in training compared to other options.

Where hip thrusts can be a viable option for hypertrophy, they have a extremely low ROM and I would expect deadlifts or squats to ramp up from H.T. exclusively unless your lockout was suspect and I still think there are better options to program first, second, etc...

The old saying if you want to get better at squatting....then do more squatting. Now that wouldn't be the same squat but some variations to allow for recovery within a well written program.

Right off the bat without knowing your response to training it appears that lowering your intensity for volume and trying more specific variations to the lifts you want to improve would be a good choice.

Thank you for your help! I was thinking I was writing this out that I'm not working with squats and deads enough to see quicker progress. I do feel like I'm getting decent lockout with the HT's and I do them with a posterior pelvic tilt. I actually like them because I feel I can do them and they don't kill me the next day , but did think they'd help with squats and deads more.

What I'd really like to do is work directly with a physical therapist who's also and athletic or personal trainer, or with that kind of angle. Unfortunately what I end up doing is calling a local PT chain place that takes my insurance and get the appointment that works with my schedule. Not saying they haven't helped because they definitely have, but all the (4) that I've had aren't lifters.

Yeah, I wish I could personally assess by seeing you lift live and go through some movements to see ROM and form. Some things I need to see one on one to give the best assessment.


A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Speakeasy76

ninerbuff wrote: »

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

Chieflrg wrote: »

Okay a lot in there but some key things like volume is missing.

One, I'm not dismissing your pain. I think with more advanced programing tailored to you including better load management I'd hazard you probably wouldn't experience itso generously. Especially when you are doing AMRAPs as those really aren't helpful in training compared to other options.

Where hip thrusts can be a viable option for hypertrophy, they have a extremely low ROM and I would expect deadlifts or squats to ramp up from H.T. exclusively unless your lockout was suspect and I still think there are better options to program first, second, etc...

The old saying if you want to get better at squatting....then do more squatting. Now that wouldn't be the same squat but some variations to allow for recovery within a well written program.

Right off the bat without knowing your response to training it appears that lowering your intensity for volume and trying more specific variations to the lifts you want to improve would be a good choice.

Thank you for your help! I was thinking I was writing this out that I'm not working with squats and deads enough to see quicker progress. I do feel like I'm getting decent lockout with the HT's and I do them with a posterior pelvic tilt. I actually like them because I feel I can do them and they don't kill me the next day , but did think they'd help with squats and deads more.

What I'd really like to do is work directly with a physical therapist who's also and athletic or personal trainer, or with that kind of angle. Unfortunately what I end up doing is calling a local PT chain place that takes my insurance and get the appointment that works with my schedule. Not saying they haven't helped because they definitely have, but all the (4) that I've had aren't lifters.

Yeah, I wish I could personally assess by seeing you lift live and go through some movements to see ROM and form. Some things I need to see one on one to give the best assessment.


A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I think it was you that assessed my squat video and gave me some tips. I've been utilizing them and I feel it's making a difference, so thank you!

Chieflrg

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

Chieflrg wrote: »

Okay a lot in there but some key things like volume is missing.

One, I'm not dismissing your pain. I think with more advanced programing tailored to you including better load management I'd hazard you probably wouldn't experience itso generously. Especially when you are doing AMRAPs as those really aren't helpful in training compared to other options.

Where hip thrusts can be a viable option for hypertrophy, they have a extremely low ROM and I would expect deadlifts or squats to ramp up from H.T. exclusively unless your lockout was suspect and I still think there are better options to program first, second, etc...

The old saying if you want to get better at squatting....then do more squatting. Now that wouldn't be the same squat but some variations to allow for recovery within a well written program.

Right off the bat without knowing your response to training it appears that lowering your intensity for volume and trying more specific variations to the lifts you want to improve would be a good choice.

Thank you for your help! I was thinking I was writing this out that I'm not working with squats and deads enough to see quicker progress. I do feel like I'm getting decent lockout with the HT's and I do them with a posterior pelvic tilt. I actually like them because I feel I can do them and they don't kill me the next day , but did think they'd help with squats and deads more.

What I'd really like to do is work directly with a physical therapist who's also and athletic or personal trainer, or with that kind of angle. Unfortunately what I end up doing is calling a local PT chain place that takes my insurance and get the appointment that works with my schedule. Not saying they haven't helped because they definitely have, but all the (4) that I've had aren't lifters.

I would highly suggest you sign up for a consultation with Derekk Miles or Michael at BBM. They and the other doctors do lift and are quite up to date on recent evidence and would be a great help.

Speakeasy76

Chieflrg wrote: »

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

Chieflrg wrote: »

Okay a lot in there but some key things like volume is missing.

One, I'm not dismissing your pain. I think with more advanced programing tailored to you including better load management I'd hazard you probably wouldn't experience itso generously. Especially when you are doing AMRAPs as those really aren't helpful in training compared to other options.

Where hip thrusts can be a viable option for hypertrophy, they have a extremely low ROM and I would expect deadlifts or squats to ramp up from H.T. exclusively unless your lockout was suspect and I still think there are better options to program first, second, etc...

The old saying if you want to get better at squatting....then do more squatting. Now that wouldn't be the same squat but some variations to allow for recovery within a well written program.

Right off the bat without knowing your response to training it appears that lowering your intensity for volume and trying more specific variations to the lifts you want to improve would be a good choice.

Thank you for your help! I was thinking I was writing this out that I'm not working with squats and deads enough to see quicker progress. I do feel like I'm getting decent lockout with the HT's and I do them with a posterior pelvic tilt. I actually like them because I feel I can do them and they don't kill me the next day , but did think they'd help with squats and deads more.

What I'd really like to do is work directly with a physical therapist who's also and athletic or personal trainer, or with that kind of angle. Unfortunately what I end up doing is calling a local PT chain place that takes my insurance and get the appointment that works with my schedule. Not saying they haven't helped because they definitely have, but all the (4) that I've had aren't lifters.

I would highly suggest you sign up for a consultation with Derekk Miles or Michael at BBM. They and the other doctors do lift and are quite up to date on recent evidence and would be a great help.

Thanks, I'll check them out.