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Do we intermittently fast already?

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  • neanderthinneanderthin Member Posts: 7,657 Member Member Posts: 7,657 Member
    That seems extrapolating wrong thing to me.
    And diabetics are often advised not to skip meals
    And yes, hba1c is gold standard of testing - I dont think there was any dispute on that, not sure why it was mentioned.

    Of course they also need to control sugar intake and of course also calories to lose weight.

    But I do not agree any sort of IF is best way to achieve that.

    It's just another way, not best. Also diabetics are told to eat sugar and the diabetes association had/has jelly beans as a recommendation. I guess it's still popular to continue to believe diabetes is a chronic heath condition. That just blows my mind.
  • neanderthinneanderthin Member Posts: 7,657 Member Member Posts: 7,657 Member
    What is thought to be consensus is feeling comfortable and not having to think. When I'm in consensus, it's time to give myself a slap and start some research. imo, Cheers
  • neanderthinneanderthin Member Posts: 7,657 Member Member Posts: 7,657 Member
    That seems extrapolating wrong thing to me.
    And diabetics are often advised not to skip meals
    And yes, hba1c is gold standard of testing - I dont think there was any dispute on that, not sure why it was mentioned.

    Of course they also need to control sugar intake and of course also calories to lose weight.

    But I do not agree any sort of IF is best way to achieve that.

    It's just another way, not best. Also diabetics are told to eat sugar and the diabetes association had/has jelly beans as a recommendation. I guess it's still popular to continue to believe diabetes is a chronic heath condition. That just blows my mind.


    Yes it is still popular (aka medical consensus) to believe diabetes is a chronic health condition - because it is.

    Blows my mind that people think whatever research they have done somehow trumps medical consensus
    When I am in doubt about something I refer to the medical experts, not somehow think I know better.
    Time to give myself a slap if I start thinking I am an expert when I am not.

    Yes, diabetes association most likely recomends jelly beans as a counteract to hypo's - not as a regular food (unless no sugar version)

    The ADA appointed a new CEO in 2018, her name is Tracey Brown. She was the first CEO to have diabetes. Tracey had diabetes for I believe 15 years. She took it upon her self to use some critical thinking and research and came to the conclusion that if this was a disease that involved sugar what would happen if she reduced it and basically took sugar out of her diet for the most part. She quickly came off her diabetes medication and 3 other medications. Basically her diabetes is in full remission. She maintains with a low carb diet. Also as of 2020 the ADA now endorses the low carb diet as an intervention for diabetes. No more jelly beans for her. She didn't believe in consensus either and was the Segway to her current ADA position. Cheers.

    edited May 27
  • paperpuddingpaperpudding Member Posts: 6,712 Member Member Posts: 6,712 Member
    That seems extrapolating wrong thing to me.
    And diabetics are often advised not to skip meals
    And yes, hba1c is gold standard of testing - I dont think there was any dispute on that, not sure why it was mentioned.

    Of course they also need to control sugar intake and of course also calories to lose weight.

    But I do not agree any sort of IF is best way to achieve that.

    It's just another way, not best. Also diabetics are told to eat sugar and the diabetes association had/has jelly beans as a recommendation. I guess it's still popular to continue to believe diabetes is a chronic heath condition. That just blows my mind.


    Yes it is still popular (aka medical consensus) to believe diabetes is a chronic health condition - because it is.

    Blows my mind that people think whatever research they have done somehow trumps medical consensus
    When I am in doubt about something I refer to the medical experts, not somehow think I know better.
    Time to give myself a slap if I start thinking I am an expert when I am not.

    Yes, diabetes association most likely recomends jelly beans as a counteract to hypo's - not as a regular food (unless no sugar version)

    The ADA appointed a new CEO in 2018, her name is Tracey Brown. She was the first CEO to have diabetes. Tracey had diabetes for I believe 15 years. She took it upon her self to use some critical thinking and research and came to the conclusion that if this was a disease that involved sugar what would happen if she reduced it and basically took sugar out of her diet for the most part. She quickly came of her diabetes medication and 3 other medications. Basically her diabetes is in full remission. She maintains with a low carb diet. Also as of 2020 the ADA now endorses the low carb diet as an intervention for diabetes. No more jelly beans for her. She didn't believe in consensus either and was the Segway to her current position. Cheers.


    I'm not sure what point you are making - I dont dispute at all that some type 2 diabetics can reduce their need for medication, sometimes to none, if they eat a low carb or almost no sugar diet and/or lose weight - it isnt quite in remission, but it is controlled by diet only.
    It is still a chronic condition, just now better controlled. It hasnt gone away.

    I'm not arguing against a low carb diet for diabetics and I am not aware of anyone else doing so either

    Jelly beans are only ever for emergency treatment of hypos - nobody recomends them as a part of a diabetic diet.

    None of that is new - it isnt Tracey coming up with something brand new, it is standard medical consensus already

    What I dispute is that IF is the way to go about it - the low carb/almost no sugar part wasnt the issue.
  • neanderthinneanderthin Member Posts: 7,657 Member Member Posts: 7,657 Member
    Who said IF is the way to go, I don't remember anyone saying that, but that's not to say someone did. I would imagine for the people that are looking to lose weight, they use it like any other tool. If it helps them, where's the harm. Maybe because it's newish to most it's automatically discounted, I'm not sure. People are funny that way.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member, Premium Posts: 25,741 Member Member, Premium Posts: 25,741 Member
    That seems extrapolating wrong thing to me.
    And diabetics are often advised not to skip meals
    And yes, hba1c is gold standard of testing - I dont think there was any dispute on that, not sure why it was mentioned.

    Of course they also need to control sugar intake and of course also calories to lose weight.

    But I do not agree any sort of IF is best way to achieve that.

    It's just another way, not best. Also diabetics are told to eat sugar and the diabetes association had/has jelly beans as a recommendation. I guess it's still popular to continue to believe diabetes is a chronic heath condition. That just blows my mind.

    Can you share the source for the claim that the ADA recommends jelly beans as a food for diabetics? I did a Google search for this and all I found was some references to specific alternative testing scenarios for gestational diabetes. I am not sure I'm using the right terms to find the scenario you're referring to here. Or are you interpreting the recommendation that they be used in specific blood sugar situations to be an overall recommendation for all diabetics to eat them regularly?
    edited May 27
  • neanderthinneanderthin Member Posts: 7,657 Member Member Posts: 7,657 Member
    That seems extrapolating wrong thing to me.
    And diabetics are often advised not to skip meals
    And yes, hba1c is gold standard of testing - I dont think there was any dispute on that, not sure why it was mentioned.

    Of course they also need to control sugar intake and of course also calories to lose weight.

    But I do not agree any sort of IF is best way to achieve that.

    It's just another way, not best. Also diabetics are told to eat sugar and the diabetes association had/has jelly beans as a recommendation. I guess it's still popular to continue to believe diabetes is a chronic heath condition. That just blows my mind.

    Can you share the source for the claim that the ADA recommends jelly beans as a food for diabetics? I did a Google search for this and all I found was some references to specific alternative testing scenarios for gestational diabetes. I am not sure I'm using the right terms to find the scenario you're referring to here. Or are you interpreting the recommendation that they be used in specific blood sugar situations to be an overall recommendation for all diabetics to eat them regularly?

    I saw it on a plate that had recommended foods on their website, maybe 2015 or so, thought that was weird.

  • neanderthinneanderthin Member Posts: 7,657 Member Member Posts: 7,657 Member
    Just did search and found nothing. paperpudding is probably right and used for hypoglycemia.
    edited May 27
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member, Premium Posts: 25,741 Member Member, Premium Posts: 25,741 Member
    That seems extrapolating wrong thing to me.
    And diabetics are often advised not to skip meals
    And yes, hba1c is gold standard of testing - I dont think there was any dispute on that, not sure why it was mentioned.

    Of course they also need to control sugar intake and of course also calories to lose weight.

    But I do not agree any sort of IF is best way to achieve that.

    It's just another way, not best. Also diabetics are told to eat sugar and the diabetes association had/has jelly beans as a recommendation. I guess it's still popular to continue to believe diabetes is a chronic heath condition. That just blows my mind.

    Can you share the source for the claim that the ADA recommends jelly beans as a food for diabetics? I did a Google search for this and all I found was some references to specific alternative testing scenarios for gestational diabetes. I am not sure I'm using the right terms to find the scenario you're referring to here. Or are you interpreting the recommendation that they be used in specific blood sugar situations to be an overall recommendation for all diabetics to eat them regularly?

    I saw it on a plate that had recommended foods on their website, maybe 2015 or so, thought that was weird.

    It is weird, because I can't find any mention of the ADA ever recommending jelly beans or other candies as a good food for diabetics. I added 2015 to my results and still didn't find anything. Maybe it was a misunderstanding, because there were enough people concerned with sugar in 2015 that I think it would have been a big deal if the ADA was recommending candy to diabetics.
  • neanderthinneanderthin Member Posts: 7,657 Member Member Posts: 7,657 Member
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member, Premium Posts: 25,741 Member Member, Premium Posts: 25,741 Member

    This is specifically to deal with hypoglycemia, not recommending them as a good general food choice for diabetics.
  • heybalesheybales Member Posts: 18,869 Member Member Posts: 18,869 Member
    That seems extrapolating wrong thing to me.
    And diabetics are often advised not to skip meals
    And yes, hba1c is gold standard of testing - I dont think there was any dispute on that, not sure why it was mentioned.

    Of course they also need to control sugar intake and of course also calories to lose weight.

    But I do not agree any sort of IF is best way to achieve that.

    It's just another way, not best. Also diabetics are told to eat sugar and the diabetes association had/has jelly beans as a recommendation. I guess it's still popular to continue to believe diabetes is a chronic heath condition. That just blows my mind.


    Yes it is still popular (aka medical consensus) to believe diabetes is a chronic health condition - because it is.

    Blows my mind that people think whatever research they have done somehow trumps medical consensus
    When I am in doubt about something I refer to the medical experts, not somehow think I know better.
    Time to give myself a slap if I start thinking I am an expert when I am not.

    Yes, diabetes association most likely recomends jelly beans as a counteract to hypo's - not as a regular food (unless no sugar version)

    The ADA appointed a new CEO in 2018, her name is Tracey Brown. She was the first CEO to have diabetes. Tracey had diabetes for I believe 15 years. She took it upon her self to use some critical thinking and research and came to the conclusion that if this was a disease that involved sugar what would happen if she reduced it and basically took sugar out of her diet for the most part. She quickly came off her diabetes medication and 3 other medications. Basically her diabetes is in full remission. She maintains with a low carb diet. Also as of 2020 the ADA now endorses the low carb diet as an intervention for diabetes. No more jelly beans for her. She didn't believe in consensus either and was the Segway to her current ADA position. Cheers.

    Not sure yet because I can't find any admittance in interviews regarding this point - but purely from some Google images at events that have dates, it appears weight was also lost since taking the job 2018 until the time I see interviews about T2D being in remission early 2020.

    If low carb and IF helped to achieve and maintain some weight loss that's great.

    Also to be noted though, never appeared greatly overweight anyway.

    Not taking away what indeed could have helped with the T2D - but studies have shown that purely having fat loss also helps.

    And obviously for some people the low carb is for sure a great benefit anyway.
  • neanderthinneanderthin Member Posts: 7,657 Member Member Posts: 7,657 Member
    heybales wrote: »
    For anyone who says they 'skip' breakfast...technically, breakfast is your first meal whether you eat it in the a.m. or p.m. Whenever your first meal, it is technically Break Fast!!! You can call it lunch, supper or snack, but when your fast ends and you put that first morsel in your mouth it is breaking the fasting period however long that may be. Just a side point to the debate lol

    Yeah and I technically don't do IF because I put milk in my coffee when I wake up and have broken the fast. Because real IF is rigid pseduo-science.

    Also I think everyone here knows that breaking the fast is where calling it breakfast comes from but also know it to typically mean 'morning meal'. It's a cool work though and I like it.

    Can you elaborate.

    I'll comment too - I've heard several podcast interviews, or videos debunking other interviews - where the IF advocate said that anything besides fat (or anything) ruined the true IF and you really broke the fast, ruining all the positive benefits of the IF - which usually had some rather fanciful claims as to extra benefits.

    In one I recall it was about the creamer in the coffee - and the actual blood tests on a few people (no one had the funds to run a study on this with huge group) showed the small amount of protein, fat, and carbs in a little bit of creamer didn't elevate insulin at all, and blood sugar didn't change any more than it does through normal sitting around doing nothing fluctuations.
    Which of course led to what magical thing was IF doing that it stopped doing if it was all about blood sugar and insulin supposedly, and that didn't change.

    These are claims of benefits well beyond study results showing an improvement to insulin resistance in those prone to a problem with it. The pseudoscience claims.

    Good synopsis heybales. IF is really ideal and designed to work with a LCD or a ketogenic diet because a cornerstone of IF is controlling Insulin. If a person is on a LCD or ketogenic diet then insulin management is already in progress and in that respect a person can consume some cream, bone broth, coffee, tea and/or around 500 calories of specific foods (nothing with too much sugar/carbs) without it really effecting a fast. If someone is only using it for a weight loss strategy and consumes a diet which includes lots of carbs and generally eats breakfast and continues with other meals and snacks over the course of a day, pretty much in a continual fed state, then insulin is fairly active all day long. The other cornerstone of IF is fat burning during those hrs of fasting and again if your doing LC then to start utilizing adipose for fuel is quicker. Otherwise that benefit of burning adipose isn't very efficient if your body is still full or using glycogen in muscle and liver and to be totally use up it takes 24-36 hours approx. Basically IF for weight lose for the general population it's about controlling food intake unfortunately that has pretty much no IF benefit, except weight loss, which is fabulous if they can continue but I suspect most won't.
    edited May 27
  • paperpuddingpaperpudding Member Posts: 6,712 Member Member Posts: 6,712 Member

    yes, absolutely.
    That is what I was saying before - for emergency treatment of hypo's - jellybeans and similar are the recomended thing.
    Not as regular food though.
  • paperpuddingpaperpudding Member Posts: 6,712 Member Member Posts: 6,712 Member
    Who said IF is the way to go, I don't remember anyone saying that, but that's not to say someone did. I would imagine for the people that are looking to lose weight, they use it like any other tool. If it helps them, where's the harm. Maybe because it's newish to most it's automatically discounted, I'm not sure. People are funny that way.

    Tsazani did.

    He/she said : "Combining LCHF with fasting is how one attacks insulin resistance."

    and that was post I responded to, with me saying fasting is not how one attacks insulin resistance and there is no medical reason to encourage it

    If people want to do it (safely) for their own personal reasons, that is fine - but putting pseudo medical claims to it is not.
  • heybalesheybales Member Posts: 18,869 Member Member Posts: 18,869 Member
    heybales wrote: »
    For anyone who says they 'skip' breakfast...technically, breakfast is your first meal whether you eat it in the a.m. or p.m. Whenever your first meal, it is technically Break Fast!!! You can call it lunch, supper or snack, but when your fast ends and you put that first morsel in your mouth it is breaking the fasting period however long that may be. Just a side point to the debate lol

    Yeah and I technically don't do IF because I put milk in my coffee when I wake up and have broken the fast. Because real IF is rigid pseduo-science.

    Also I think everyone here knows that breaking the fast is where calling it breakfast comes from but also know it to typically mean 'morning meal'. It's a cool work though and I like it.

    Can you elaborate.

    I'll comment too - I've heard several podcast interviews, or videos debunking other interviews - where the IF advocate said that anything besides fat (or anything) ruined the true IF and you really broke the fast, ruining all the positive benefits of the IF - which usually had some rather fanciful claims as to extra benefits.

    In one I recall it was about the creamer in the coffee - and the actual blood tests on a few people (no one had the funds to run a study on this with huge group) showed the small amount of protein, fat, and carbs in a little bit of creamer didn't elevate insulin at all, and blood sugar didn't change any more than it does through normal sitting around doing nothing fluctuations.
    Which of course led to what magical thing was IF doing that it stopped doing if it was all about blood sugar and insulin supposedly, and that didn't change.

    These are claims of benefits well beyond study results showing an improvement to insulin resistance in those prone to a problem with it. The pseudoscience claims.

    Good synopsis heybales. IF is really ideal and designed to work with a LCD or a ketogenic diet because a cornerstone of IF is controlling Insulin. If a person is on a LCD or ketogenic diet then insulin management is already in progress and in that respect a person can consume some cream, bone broth, coffee, tea and/or around 500 calories of specific foods (nothing with too much sugar/carbs) without it really effecting a fast. If someone is only using it for a weight loss strategy and consumes a diet which includes lots of carbs and generally eats breakfast and continues with other meals and snacks over the course of a day, pretty much in a continual fed state, then insulin is fairly active all day long. The other cornerstone of IF is fat burning during those hrs of fasting and again if your doing LC then to start utilizing adipose for fuel is quicker. Otherwise that benefit of burning adipose isn't very efficient if your body is still full or using glycogen in muscle and liver and to be totally use up it takes 24-36 hours approx. Basically IF for weight lose for the general population it's about controlling food intake unfortunately that has pretty much no IF benefit, except weight loss, which is fabulous if they can continue but I suspect most won't.

    Muscle-stored glycogen can't be released into the blood stream for use elsewhere, like when the liver is going low.

    As soon as insulin goes down, like 2-4 hrs after an avg meal depending on the spike - your liver can be topped off with carbs and still fat release has occurred and you are back to burning upwards of 90% fat as energy source.
    Your body burns a majority of fat already - it is very adept at switching back to fat burning mode.
    Very efficient even when burning a combo of carbs and fat like during exercise levels.
    Energy source is about rate of use, not if you have carbs available or not.

    Eat 1 big meal later in the day and it is elevated longer.
    It all comes out as a wash if you equate for calories and macros.

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