Mention it or don’t? How should I phrase it?
Replies
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cmriverside wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »John772016 wrote: »John772016 wrote: »When I lost 110lbs I got lots of comments; they started around 55lbs. I took all of them as positive. All.
We're they? No idea. They were to me.
We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human.
I agree with @jjpptt2 , your intention is important and you cannot control their choices. You decided not to say anything and that's fine.
I know when I eventually get back into the gym, I hope some regulars acknowledge my hard work while being locked out.
Try being a woman who is just working out and getting unsolicited comments. All. The. Time.
And no, it's not nice, the words may be nice but the intent and tone is not. So I agree with others, a man commenting on my progress would probably be unwelcome, and probably downright creepy. We don't want or need to hear the opinion of a random person at the gym. Ask why you feel the need to compliment.
That said, the OP seems to have a previous relationship with her, so then I'd say it would be fine.
Except the OP wasn't describing your situation, and I wasn't commenting on your situation but the one he described.
My own comment was I hoped 'the regulars' acknowledge my efforts, not random strangers.
Nothing I said deserved your rebuke.
Fair call.
The bit I took as feeling off in your comment was "We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human." and that feels so dismissive to me. Whenever a woman says that a man's comments make us uncomfortable, we get hit with the "I'm just trying to be friendly/nice" response, so your comment about being wired to be offended hit a nerve.
The conversation is around whether someone should say something to another person about their appearance. And saying that people are wired to be offended is so dismissive to how people feel about unsolicited comments is appropriate to that conversation
*peeks in*
Even tho no one asked, I'm with John772016 on this.
Someone on a tumblr page I frequent was literally offended because a guy said she had good taste in music. She couldn't take the compliment and THEN see if the guy turned creepy? No, she had to be offended because she didn't need her taste in music validated.
It's too much. Have some faith not everyone wants in your pants.
The thing to get is that when a guy tells a woman she's looking great or deems her taste in music good, it's the first time he's saying it to her but it may be something she's dealt with dozens of times. Sometimes a guy will have the greatest intentions, but the overall dynamic of guys deciding they will declare who looks great, has good taste, is great at whatever. . . it can be tiring over the course of a lifetime.
Every guy who wants to validate strangers should understand this overall situation so they can at least understand when it goes sideways.
I'll stipulate to that, but shouldn't the woman also be aware that she's imposing her past experience on the current situation, potentially unfairly/inappropriately?
My only point in asking this is that, IMO, communication is a 2-way street. Just like the person speaking needs to be thoughtful and considerate about how they can be interpreted, the person listening needs to be thoughtful and considerate about what might be meant. BOTH parties have to be aware of their own tendencies/biases, no?
No because she is not imposing anything on anyone - she is at the gym minding her own business and reacting to someone imposing something (potentially unwanted) on her.
I haven't been to the gym in years but I am firmly in the "don't comment" camp. When I used to go (as an average looking woman in my 40's) I was sick to death of "regulars" commenting on my workout, my results, how much I sweat etc etc etc. I don't know where any guy gets the idea that women at they gym give a *kitten* about their opinion. I hated it.
She absolutely is. She's hearing a comment and reacting to it based on her PAST experiences, rather than reacting based on THIS experience.
Then you won't mind if you get your head bitten off? Or would that trigger you into some other inappropriate comment?
Because I've tried telling men to back off and it escalates.
Do you really think your opinion is so important that you have to blurt it out? It gets so old to hear it day after day, year after year.
It's not original, it's more like an annoying gnat.
What was the nature of the comment... the one that caused you to tell someone to back off that caused them to escalate? Maybe I'm not appreciating the scope/nature of comments women are receiving (??)
One time I was grocery shopping and a man told me he liked my tattoo. I said "Thanks" and began to continue my shopping. He asked if he could touch it. I said "No." He told me I'd better be careful in the parking lot.11 -
janejellyroll wrote: »John772016 wrote: »John772016 wrote: »When I lost 110lbs I got lots of comments; they started around 55lbs. I took all of them as positive. All.
We're they? No idea. They were to me.
We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human.
I agree with @jjpptt2 , your intention is important and you cannot control their choices. You decided not to say anything and that's fine.
I know when I eventually get back into the gym, I hope some regulars acknowledge my hard work while being locked out.
Try being a woman who is just working out and getting unsolicited comments. All. The. Time.
And no, it's not nice, the words may be nice but the intent and tone is not. So I agree with others, a man commenting on my progress would probably be unwelcome, and probably downright creepy. We don't want or need to hear the opinion of a random person at the gym. Ask why you feel the need to compliment.
That said, the OP seems to have a previous relationship with her, so then I'd say it would be fine.
Except the OP wasn't describing your situation, and I wasn't commenting on your situation but the one he described.
My own comment was I hoped 'the regulars' acknowledge my efforts, not random strangers.
Nothing I said deserved your rebuke.
Fair call.
The bit I took as feeling off in your comment was "We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human." and that feels so dismissive to me. Whenever a woman says that a man's comments make us uncomfortable, we get hit with the "I'm just trying to be friendly/nice" response, so your comment about being wired to be offended hit a nerve.
The conversation is around whether someone should say something to another person about their appearance. And saying that people are wired to be offended is so dismissive to how people feel about unsolicited comments is appropriate to that conversation
*peeks in*
Even tho no one asked, I'm with John772016 on this.
Someone on a tumblr page I frequent was literally offended because a guy said she had good taste in music. She couldn't take the compliment and THEN see if the guy turned creepy? No, she had to be offended because she didn't need her taste in music validated.
It's too much. Have some faith not everyone wants in your pants.
The thing to get is that when a guy tells a woman she's looking great or deems her taste in music good, it's the first time he's saying it to her but it may be something she's dealt with dozens of times. Sometimes a guy will have the greatest intentions, but the overall dynamic of guys deciding they will declare who looks great, has good taste, is great at whatever. . . it can be tiring over the course of a lifetime.
Every guy who wants to validate strangers should understand this overall situation so they can at least understand when it goes sideways.
I'll stipulate to that, but shouldn't the woman also be aware that she's imposing her past experience on the current situation, potentially unfairly/inappropriately?
My only point in asking this is that, IMO, communication is a 2-way street. Just like the person speaking needs to be thoughtful and considerate about how they can be interpreted, the person listening needs to be thoughtful and considerate about what might be meant. BOTH parties have to be aware of their own tendencies/biases, no?
I’m from the camp of I’m a woman and have received plenty of unsolicited compliments, comments, statements, etc throughout my life. I really do try to take that stance- dealing with individuals individually. I’m also someone who is pretty hard to offend. I try to take note of the individual’s intention behind their comment. I feel like I have a pretty good creeper gauge- if the person seems like a creep, I make it known their comment is unwelcome. If the person seems like they are genuinely being nice, don’t linger, or continue the comments or conversation, then I’ll politely say thank you and move on. If the OP was a creep, he’d a made his comment on the spot. He’s obviously trying to be nice and applaud someone’s hard work as he cared enough to come on here and ask to make sure he wouldn’t come off as offensive.
I however don’t take the stance that all women should handle this situation the same. Women are entitled to feel offended by someone’s comment, even if the commenter had the best of intentions. As you said communication is a 2 way street, with that perception is reality. If a woman perceives the comment as unsolicited and offensive, then that’s her reality and she can react accordingly. This is also why my recommendation on the 1st page was for the OP to use a statement like haven’t seen you in awhile and it looks like you’ve been putting in a lot of hard work and have great results to show for it. It puts the focus on “hard work” and “results” opposed to a simple “you look great” puts to focus on “looks.” I know plenty of women that would gladly take a compliment, but feel objectified by the compliment being focused around their bodies.
Not sure where my own bias ends on this, so feel free to stone me if necessary...
Isn't *part* of the reason we're at the gym and watching what we eat and all the rest to improve our appearance? I absolutely realize that how much of it is about appearance can vary greatly person to person, but I also think it's the very small minority of people who don't care about physical changes in the slightest.
I also thing there's a big difference between a comment like, "Hey, you look great" and "wow, that's a great *kitten* (butt)"
I don’t understand how going to the gym and watching what we eat to improve appearance somehow makes it invalid for a woman to get offended by unsolicited comments?! The effort I put into me is for me, not the public. I also hear way more people talk about working out/dieting for improved health opposed to improved appearance. Even those who work out/diet strictly for improved appearance, still don’t deserve to be (or feel) objectified.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »John772016 wrote: »John772016 wrote: »When I lost 110lbs I got lots of comments; they started around 55lbs. I took all of them as positive. All.
We're they? No idea. They were to me.
We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human.
I agree with @jjpptt2 , your intention is important and you cannot control their choices. You decided not to say anything and that's fine.
I know when I eventually get back into the gym, I hope some regulars acknowledge my hard work while being locked out.
Try being a woman who is just working out and getting unsolicited comments. All. The. Time.
And no, it's not nice, the words may be nice but the intent and tone is not. So I agree with others, a man commenting on my progress would probably be unwelcome, and probably downright creepy. We don't want or need to hear the opinion of a random person at the gym. Ask why you feel the need to compliment.
That said, the OP seems to have a previous relationship with her, so then I'd say it would be fine.
Except the OP wasn't describing your situation, and I wasn't commenting on your situation but the one he described.
My own comment was I hoped 'the regulars' acknowledge my efforts, not random strangers.
Nothing I said deserved your rebuke.
Fair call.
The bit I took as feeling off in your comment was "We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human." and that feels so dismissive to me. Whenever a woman says that a man's comments make us uncomfortable, we get hit with the "I'm just trying to be friendly/nice" response, so your comment about being wired to be offended hit a nerve.
The conversation is around whether someone should say something to another person about their appearance. And saying that people are wired to be offended is so dismissive to how people feel about unsolicited comments is appropriate to that conversation
*peeks in*
Even tho no one asked, I'm with John772016 on this.
Someone on a tumblr page I frequent was literally offended because a guy said she had good taste in music. She couldn't take the compliment and THEN see if the guy turned creepy? No, she had to be offended because she didn't need her taste in music validated.
It's too much. Have some faith not everyone wants in your pants.
The thing to get is that when a guy tells a woman she's looking great or deems her taste in music good, it's the first time he's saying it to her but it may be something she's dealt with dozens of times. Sometimes a guy will have the greatest intentions, but the overall dynamic of guys deciding they will declare who looks great, has good taste, is great at whatever. . . it can be tiring over the course of a lifetime.
Every guy who wants to validate strangers should understand this overall situation so they can at least understand when it goes sideways.
I'll stipulate to that, but shouldn't the woman also be aware that she's imposing her past experience on the current situation, potentially unfairly/inappropriately?
My only point in asking this is that, IMO, communication is a 2-way street. Just like the person speaking needs to be thoughtful and considerate about how they can be interpreted, the person listening needs to be thoughtful and considerate about what might be meant. BOTH parties have to be aware of their own tendencies/biases, no?
Have you ever been in an interaction that went from normal to creepy or even threatening really quickly? That's the balance that many women are pondering when guys make comments like this. I'm not trying to justify bad behavior, I'm just pointing out that lots of women have experience with seemingly routine interactions going south really quickly (and I'm sure there are men who have this experience as well).
Everyone should be considerate. For men who want to compliment people they don't know well, I think consideration includes understanding why a woman might have a negative response to a compliment. That's all I'm saying. It's not that women are randomly deciding that this specific dude wants in their pants . . . it's that lots of experiences with men trying to get in our pants (or do something else unwanted) begins with a seemingly innocent statement.
That's fair. I think I needed the reminder that what starts as a "simple compliment" could potentially turn into a guy waiting by a woman's car outside the gym after her workout (for example). That slope could get really slippery really fast.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »John772016 wrote: »John772016 wrote: »When I lost 110lbs I got lots of comments; they started around 55lbs. I took all of them as positive. All.
We're they? No idea. They were to me.
We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human.
I agree with @jjpptt2 , your intention is important and you cannot control their choices. You decided not to say anything and that's fine.
I know when I eventually get back into the gym, I hope some regulars acknowledge my hard work while being locked out.
Try being a woman who is just working out and getting unsolicited comments. All. The. Time.
And no, it's not nice, the words may be nice but the intent and tone is not. So I agree with others, a man commenting on my progress would probably be unwelcome, and probably downright creepy. We don't want or need to hear the opinion of a random person at the gym. Ask why you feel the need to compliment.
That said, the OP seems to have a previous relationship with her, so then I'd say it would be fine.
Except the OP wasn't describing your situation, and I wasn't commenting on your situation but the one he described.
My own comment was I hoped 'the regulars' acknowledge my efforts, not random strangers.
Nothing I said deserved your rebuke.
Fair call.
The bit I took as feeling off in your comment was "We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human." and that feels so dismissive to me. Whenever a woman says that a man's comments make us uncomfortable, we get hit with the "I'm just trying to be friendly/nice" response, so your comment about being wired to be offended hit a nerve.
The conversation is around whether someone should say something to another person about their appearance. And saying that people are wired to be offended is so dismissive to how people feel about unsolicited comments is appropriate to that conversation
*peeks in*
Even tho no one asked, I'm with John772016 on this.
Someone on a tumblr page I frequent was literally offended because a guy said she had good taste in music. She couldn't take the compliment and THEN see if the guy turned creepy? No, she had to be offended because she didn't need her taste in music validated.
It's too much. Have some faith not everyone wants in your pants.
The thing to get is that when a guy tells a woman she's looking great or deems her taste in music good, it's the first time he's saying it to her but it may be something she's dealt with dozens of times. Sometimes a guy will have the greatest intentions, but the overall dynamic of guys deciding they will declare who looks great, has good taste, is great at whatever. . . it can be tiring over the course of a lifetime.
Every guy who wants to validate strangers should understand this overall situation so they can at least understand when it goes sideways.
I'll stipulate to that, but shouldn't the woman also be aware that she's imposing her past experience on the current situation, potentially unfairly/inappropriately?
My only point in asking this is that, IMO, communication is a 2-way street. Just like the person speaking needs to be thoughtful and considerate about how they can be interpreted, the person listening needs to be thoughtful and considerate about what might be meant. BOTH parties have to be aware of their own tendencies/biases, no?
Have you ever been in an interaction that went from normal to creepy or even threatening really quickly? That's the balance that many women are pondering when guys make comments like this. I'm not trying to justify bad behavior, I'm just pointing out that lots of women have experience with seemingly routine interactions going south really quickly (and I'm sure there are men who have this experience as well).
Everyone should be considerate. For men who want to compliment people they don't know well, I think consideration includes understanding why a woman might have a negative response to a compliment. That's all I'm saying. It's not that women are randomly deciding that this specific dude wants in their pants . . . it's that lots of experiences with men trying to get in our pants (or do something else unwanted) begins with a seemingly innocent statement.
That's fair. I think I needed the reminder that what starts as a "simple compliment" could potentially turn into a guy waiting by a woman's car outside the gym after her workout (for example). That slope could get really slippery really fast.
Yes, I think that's it. A guy KNOWS he isn't going to be a threat to a woman. The woman, she doesn't know that. That's why guys get confused sometimes, because it seems like a woman is being mean or shutting him down for no reason.8 -
cmriverside wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »John772016 wrote: »John772016 wrote: »When I lost 110lbs I got lots of comments; they started around 55lbs. I took all of them as positive. All.
We're they? No idea. They were to me.
We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human.
I agree with @jjpptt2 , your intention is important and you cannot control their choices. You decided not to say anything and that's fine.
I know when I eventually get back into the gym, I hope some regulars acknowledge my hard work while being locked out.
Try being a woman who is just working out and getting unsolicited comments. All. The. Time.
And no, it's not nice, the words may be nice but the intent and tone is not. So I agree with others, a man commenting on my progress would probably be unwelcome, and probably downright creepy. We don't want or need to hear the opinion of a random person at the gym. Ask why you feel the need to compliment.
That said, the OP seems to have a previous relationship with her, so then I'd say it would be fine.
Except the OP wasn't describing your situation, and I wasn't commenting on your situation but the one he described.
My own comment was I hoped 'the regulars' acknowledge my efforts, not random strangers.
Nothing I said deserved your rebuke.
Fair call.
The bit I took as feeling off in your comment was "We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human." and that feels so dismissive to me. Whenever a woman says that a man's comments make us uncomfortable, we get hit with the "I'm just trying to be friendly/nice" response, so your comment about being wired to be offended hit a nerve.
The conversation is around whether someone should say something to another person about their appearance. And saying that people are wired to be offended is so dismissive to how people feel about unsolicited comments is appropriate to that conversation
*peeks in*
Even tho no one asked, I'm with John772016 on this.
Someone on a tumblr page I frequent was literally offended because a guy said she had good taste in music. She couldn't take the compliment and THEN see if the guy turned creepy? No, she had to be offended because she didn't need her taste in music validated.
It's too much. Have some faith not everyone wants in your pants.
The thing to get is that when a guy tells a woman she's looking great or deems her taste in music good, it's the first time he's saying it to her but it may be something she's dealt with dozens of times. Sometimes a guy will have the greatest intentions, but the overall dynamic of guys deciding they will declare who looks great, has good taste, is great at whatever. . . it can be tiring over the course of a lifetime.
Every guy who wants to validate strangers should understand this overall situation so they can at least understand when it goes sideways.
I'll stipulate to that, but shouldn't the woman also be aware that she's imposing her past experience on the current situation, potentially unfairly/inappropriately?
My only point in asking this is that, IMO, communication is a 2-way street. Just like the person speaking needs to be thoughtful and considerate about how they can be interpreted, the person listening needs to be thoughtful and considerate about what might be meant. BOTH parties have to be aware of their own tendencies/biases, no?
No because she is not imposing anything on anyone - she is at the gym minding her own business and reacting to someone imposing something (potentially unwanted) on her.
I haven't been to the gym in years but I am firmly in the "don't comment" camp. When I used to go (as an average looking woman in my 40's) I was sick to death of "regulars" commenting on my workout, my results, how much I sweat etc etc etc. I don't know where any guy gets the idea that women at they gym give a *kitten* about their opinion. I hated it.
She absolutely is. She's hearing a comment and reacting to it based on her PAST experiences, rather than reacting based on THIS experience.
Then you won't mind if you get your head bitten off? Or would that trigger you into some other inappropriate comment?
Because I've tried telling men to back off and it escalates.
Do you really think your opinion is so important that you have to blurt it out? It gets so old to hear it day after day, year after year.
It's not original, it's more like an annoying gnat.
What was the nature of the comment... the one that caused you to tell someone to back off that caused them to escalate? Maybe I'm not appreciating the scope/nature of comments women are receiving (??)
Oh, it's happened more than once.
Why do you think we care if you think we look a certain way, and what do you think you're contributing to the world by imposing your opinion?
I'm of the feeling that the world needs more compliments in general, just as a source/sign of kindness and acknowledgement. This is not specific to women/appearance or anything of the like. I'll comment on someone's yard, for example. But I'm now reminded that the nature of those things (someone's physical appearance and the appearance of their yard) have some very fundamental social differences.
I guess I'll just end by saying it's unfortunate that the situation is the situation.
I'll step back out of the thread now unless someone wants me to respond to something specific... but I think the points have been made/taken. If I offended anyone I apologize, that was not my intent... I simply wanted to make my point heard and better understand the other side.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »John772016 wrote: »John772016 wrote: »When I lost 110lbs I got lots of comments; they started around 55lbs. I took all of them as positive. All.
We're they? No idea. They were to me.
We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human.
I agree with @jjpptt2 , your intention is important and you cannot control their choices. You decided not to say anything and that's fine.
I know when I eventually get back into the gym, I hope some regulars acknowledge my hard work while being locked out.
Try being a woman who is just working out and getting unsolicited comments. All. The. Time.
And no, it's not nice, the words may be nice but the intent and tone is not. So I agree with others, a man commenting on my progress would probably be unwelcome, and probably downright creepy. We don't want or need to hear the opinion of a random person at the gym. Ask why you feel the need to compliment.
That said, the OP seems to have a previous relationship with her, so then I'd say it would be fine.
Except the OP wasn't describing your situation, and I wasn't commenting on your situation but the one he described.
My own comment was I hoped 'the regulars' acknowledge my efforts, not random strangers.
Nothing I said deserved your rebuke.
Fair call.
The bit I took as feeling off in your comment was "We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human." and that feels so dismissive to me. Whenever a woman says that a man's comments make us uncomfortable, we get hit with the "I'm just trying to be friendly/nice" response, so your comment about being wired to be offended hit a nerve.
The conversation is around whether someone should say something to another person about their appearance. And saying that people are wired to be offended is so dismissive to how people feel about unsolicited comments is appropriate to that conversation
*peeks in*
Even tho no one asked, I'm with John772016 on this.
Someone on a tumblr page I frequent was literally offended because a guy said she had good taste in music. She couldn't take the compliment and THEN see if the guy turned creepy? No, she had to be offended because she didn't need her taste in music validated.
It's too much. Have some faith not everyone wants in your pants.
The thing to get is that when a guy tells a woman she's looking great or deems her taste in music good, it's the first time he's saying it to her but it may be something she's dealt with dozens of times. Sometimes a guy will have the greatest intentions, but the overall dynamic of guys deciding they will declare who looks great, has good taste, is great at whatever. . . it can be tiring over the course of a lifetime.
Every guy who wants to validate strangers should understand this overall situation so they can at least understand when it goes sideways.
I'll stipulate to that, but shouldn't the woman also be aware that she's imposing her past experience on the current situation, potentially unfairly/inappropriately?
My only point in asking this is that, IMO, communication is a 2-way street. Just like the person speaking needs to be thoughtful and considerate about how they can be interpreted, the person listening needs to be thoughtful and considerate about what might be meant. BOTH parties have to be aware of their own tendencies/biases, no?
Have you ever been in an interaction that went from normal to creepy or even threatening really quickly? That's the balance that many women are pondering when guys make comments like this. I'm not trying to justify bad behavior, I'm just pointing out that lots of women have experience with seemingly routine interactions going south really quickly (and I'm sure there are men who have this experience as well).
Everyone should be considerate. For men who want to compliment people they don't know well, I think consideration includes understanding why a woman might have a negative response to a compliment. That's all I'm saying. It's not that women are randomly deciding that this specific dude wants in their pants . . . it's that lots of experiences with men trying to get in our pants (or do something else unwanted) begins with a seemingly innocent statement.
That's fair. I think I needed the reminder that what starts as a "simple compliment" could potentially turn into a guy waiting by a woman's car outside the gym after her workout (for example). That slope could get really slippery really fast.
Yes, I think that's it. A guy KNOWS he isn't going to be a threat to a woman. The woman, she doesn't know that. That's why guys get confused sometimes, because it seems like a woman is being mean or shutting him down for no reason.
Yeah, I think this is the crux of it. It stinks that it is this way, but it is.
I do think it's very good that the OP wants to carefully navigate this dynamic. A lot depends on the pre-existing relationship. Generally though, I think a man who makes an effort to be trustworthy, rather than demanding trust, is much more likely to develop the kinds of friendships with women where supportive comments could be made and understood in the way they're intended, rather than being viewed as suspicious. Being aware is a really important first step here.
4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »John772016 wrote: »John772016 wrote: »When I lost 110lbs I got lots of comments; they started around 55lbs. I took all of them as positive. All.
We're they? No idea. They were to me.
We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human.
I agree with @jjpptt2 , your intention is important and you cannot control their choices. You decided not to say anything and that's fine.
I know when I eventually get back into the gym, I hope some regulars acknowledge my hard work while being locked out.
Try being a woman who is just working out and getting unsolicited comments. All. The. Time.
And no, it's not nice, the words may be nice but the intent and tone is not. So I agree with others, a man commenting on my progress would probably be unwelcome, and probably downright creepy. We don't want or need to hear the opinion of a random person at the gym. Ask why you feel the need to compliment.
That said, the OP seems to have a previous relationship with her, so then I'd say it would be fine.
Except the OP wasn't describing your situation, and I wasn't commenting on your situation but the one he described.
My own comment was I hoped 'the regulars' acknowledge my efforts, not random strangers.
Nothing I said deserved your rebuke.
Fair call.
The bit I took as feeling off in your comment was "We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human." and that feels so dismissive to me. Whenever a woman says that a man's comments make us uncomfortable, we get hit with the "I'm just trying to be friendly/nice" response, so your comment about being wired to be offended hit a nerve.
The conversation is around whether someone should say something to another person about their appearance. And saying that people are wired to be offended is so dismissive to how people feel about unsolicited comments is appropriate to that conversation
*peeks in*
Even tho no one asked, I'm with John772016 on this.
Someone on a tumblr page I frequent was literally offended because a guy said she had good taste in music. She couldn't take the compliment and THEN see if the guy turned creepy? No, she had to be offended because she didn't need her taste in music validated.
It's too much. Have some faith not everyone wants in your pants.
The thing to get is that when a guy tells a woman she's looking great or deems her taste in music good, it's the first time he's saying it to her but it may be something she's dealt with dozens of times. Sometimes a guy will have the greatest intentions, but the overall dynamic of guys deciding they will declare who looks great, has good taste, is great at whatever. . . it can be tiring over the course of a lifetime.
Every guy who wants to validate strangers should understand this overall situation so they can at least understand when it goes sideways.
I'll stipulate to that, but shouldn't the woman also be aware that she's imposing her past experience on the current situation, potentially unfairly/inappropriately?
My only point in asking this is that, IMO, communication is a 2-way street. Just like the person speaking needs to be thoughtful and considerate about how they can be interpreted, the person listening needs to be thoughtful and considerate about what might be meant. BOTH parties have to be aware of their own tendencies/biases, no?
Have you ever been in an interaction that went from normal to creepy or even threatening really quickly? That's the balance that many women are pondering when guys make comments like this. I'm not trying to justify bad behavior, I'm just pointing out that lots of women have experience with seemingly routine interactions going south really quickly (and I'm sure there are men who have this experience as well).
Everyone should be considerate. For men who want to compliment people they don't know well, I think consideration includes understanding why a woman might have a negative response to a compliment. That's all I'm saying. It's not that women are randomly deciding that this specific dude wants in their pants . . . it's that lots of experiences with men trying to get in our pants (or do something else unwanted) begins with a seemingly innocent statement.
That's fair. I think I needed the reminder that what starts as a "simple compliment" could potentially turn into a guy waiting by a woman's car outside the gym after her workout (for example). That slope could get really slippery really fast.
That's what tasers are for. 😀
I'm a female who considers myself a feminist. I just also believe in "not all men" and "innocent until proven guilty".
But, then again, I took being told to eat a burrito and asked if I was sick after losing so much weight as compliments.4 -
A day in the life:
Get up - go running. Get shouted at by man passing in a van
Get ready for work - get on train/bus. 'Smile love it might never happen'
Get to destination - walk to work. Get cat called by builders
Work - Not being listened to/ get credit for ideas until male colleagues chime in. Being expected to take the minutes/get the tea as the only woman in the room. Get paid less than male equivalents for the privilege
Trip home from work - as above, possible inappropriate closeness on crowded public transport.
Gym after work - someone who might be perfectly nice tries to make conversation and gets shut down.
I'm not saying that that all of these things happen every day to every woman, but they are fairly typical experiences. I am not interested in other people's opinions of my appearance or performance, it is not my job to be nice to everyone when they choose to tell me anyway.
Anyone who is interested in this kind of thing will find the Everyday Sexism website quite an eye opener.8 -
littlegreenparrot1 wrote: »A day in the life:
Get up - go running. Get shouted at by man passing in a van
Get ready for work - get on train/bus. 'Smile love it might never happen'
Get to destination - walk to work. Get cat called by builders
Work - Not being listened to/ get credit for ideas until male colleagues chime in. Being expected to take the minutes/get the tea as the only woman in the room. Get paid less than male equivalents for the privilege
Trip home from work - as above, possible inappropriate closeness on crowded public transport.
Gym after work - someone who might be perfectly nice tries to make conversation and gets shut down.
I'm not saying that that all of these things happen every day to every woman, but they are fairly typical experiences. I am not interested in other people's opinions of my appearance or performance, it is not my job to be nice to everyone when they choose to tell me anyway.
Anyone who is interested in this kind of thing will find the Everyday Sexism website quite an eye opener.
Yes I am guessing that anyone who doesn't understand the "offense" has never been (1) asked if they want to "do business" by a random man outside their office building (no I don't dress "like a hooker" I was wearing mom jeans and a tweed jacket while dropping off the mail), (2) *literally* chased on the highway so a man can pull up beside and wave at me (3) had someone call from a patio across the street telling me to "come on over" when I was at a work lunch with colleagues (4) been catcalled by a group of teenagers young enough to be my children.
These interactions are not intended to compliment btw - they are meant to exert dominance and control and are humiliating and frightening. Although men may not see their "compliment" in the same category, when it comes from a stranger we just don't want to hear it.11 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »John772016 wrote: »John772016 wrote: »When I lost 110lbs I got lots of comments; they started around 55lbs. I took all of them as positive. All.
We're they? No idea. They were to me.
We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human.
I agree with @jjpptt2 , your intention is important and you cannot control their choices. You decided not to say anything and that's fine.
I know when I eventually get back into the gym, I hope some regulars acknowledge my hard work while being locked out.
Try being a woman who is just working out and getting unsolicited comments. All. The. Time.
And no, it's not nice, the words may be nice but the intent and tone is not. So I agree with others, a man commenting on my progress would probably be unwelcome, and probably downright creepy. We don't want or need to hear the opinion of a random person at the gym. Ask why you feel the need to compliment.
That said, the OP seems to have a previous relationship with her, so then I'd say it would be fine.
Except the OP wasn't describing your situation, and I wasn't commenting on your situation but the one he described.
My own comment was I hoped 'the regulars' acknowledge my efforts, not random strangers.
Nothing I said deserved your rebuke.
Fair call.
The bit I took as feeling off in your comment was "We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human." and that feels so dismissive to me. Whenever a woman says that a man's comments make us uncomfortable, we get hit with the "I'm just trying to be friendly/nice" response, so your comment about being wired to be offended hit a nerve.
The conversation is around whether someone should say something to another person about their appearance. And saying that people are wired to be offended is so dismissive to how people feel about unsolicited comments is appropriate to that conversation
*peeks in*
Even tho no one asked, I'm with John772016 on this.
Someone on a tumblr page I frequent was literally offended because a guy said she had good taste in music. She couldn't take the compliment and THEN see if the guy turned creepy? No, she had to be offended because she didn't need her taste in music validated.
It's too much. Have some faith not everyone wants in your pants.
The thing to get is that when a guy tells a woman she's looking great or deems her taste in music good, it's the first time he's saying it to her but it may be something she's dealt with dozens of times. Sometimes a guy will have the greatest intentions, but the overall dynamic of guys deciding they will declare who looks great, has good taste, is great at whatever. . . it can be tiring over the course of a lifetime.
Every guy who wants to validate strangers should understand this overall situation so they can at least understand when it goes sideways.
I'll stipulate to that, but shouldn't the woman also be aware that she's imposing her past experience on the current situation, potentially unfairly/inappropriately?
My only point in asking this is that, IMO, communication is a 2-way street. Just like the person speaking needs to be thoughtful and considerate about how they can be interpreted, the person listening needs to be thoughtful and considerate about what might be meant. BOTH parties have to be aware of their own tendencies/biases, no?
Have you ever been in an interaction that went from normal to creepy or even threatening really quickly? That's the balance that many women are pondering when guys make comments like this. I'm not trying to justify bad behavior, I'm just pointing out that lots of women have experience with seemingly routine interactions going south really quickly (and I'm sure there are men who have this experience as well).
Everyone should be considerate. For men who want to compliment people they don't know well, I think consideration includes understanding why a woman might have a negative response to a compliment. That's all I'm saying. It's not that women are randomly deciding that this specific dude wants in their pants . . . it's that lots of experiences with men trying to get in our pants (or do something else unwanted) begins with a seemingly innocent statement.
That's fair. I think I needed the reminder that what starts as a "simple compliment" could potentially turn into a guy waiting by a woman's car outside the gym after her workout (for example). That slope could get really slippery really fast.
That's what tasers are for. 😀
I'm a female who considers myself a feminist. I just also believe in "not all men" and "innocent until proven guilty".
But, then again, I took being told to eat a burrito and asked if I was sick after losing so much weight as compliments.
If we are talking about sending someone to jail, I agree with you. But we're not. We're talking about whether a guy's perception of his own niceness and harmlessness overrides every other consideration in the situation, including a woman's prior experiences with men who haven't wished her well and haven't been harmless.
I would argue that his self-perception should not be the primary consideration, it is only a consideration. A woman's situational awareness and previous experiences can also be considered.
We're not talking about sending someone to jail, we're talking about his feelings. Those aren't nothing. They also aren't everything.5 -
There are people outside the grocery store who want to talk about the 7 petitions they're getting paid to connect signatures on. They ask everybody who walks through the door to stop what you're doing, talk about politics, sign these forms, I don't care if your iced cream is melting. After a few dozen, I stopped feeling like I owe them ten minutes of my time just because they addressed me. It isn't even anything to do with safety, I just got tired of being derailed when I'm in the middle of something and probably thinking about problems I need to solve.
I think that's kind of what it's like to be a woman, except it's not a $5 signature on a petition.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »John772016 wrote: »John772016 wrote: »When I lost 110lbs I got lots of comments; they started around 55lbs. I took all of them as positive. All.
We're they? No idea. They were to me.
We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human.
I agree with @jjpptt2 , your intention is important and you cannot control their choices. You decided not to say anything and that's fine.
I know when I eventually get back into the gym, I hope some regulars acknowledge my hard work while being locked out.
Try being a woman who is just working out and getting unsolicited comments. All. The. Time.
And no, it's not nice, the words may be nice but the intent and tone is not. So I agree with others, a man commenting on my progress would probably be unwelcome, and probably downright creepy. We don't want or need to hear the opinion of a random person at the gym. Ask why you feel the need to compliment.
That said, the OP seems to have a previous relationship with her, so then I'd say it would be fine.
Except the OP wasn't describing your situation, and I wasn't commenting on your situation but the one he described.
My own comment was I hoped 'the regulars' acknowledge my efforts, not random strangers.
Nothing I said deserved your rebuke.
Fair call.
The bit I took as feeling off in your comment was "We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human." and that feels so dismissive to me. Whenever a woman says that a man's comments make us uncomfortable, we get hit with the "I'm just trying to be friendly/nice" response, so your comment about being wired to be offended hit a nerve.
The conversation is around whether someone should say something to another person about their appearance. And saying that people are wired to be offended is so dismissive to how people feel about unsolicited comments is appropriate to that conversation
*peeks in*
Even tho no one asked, I'm with John772016 on this.
Someone on a tumblr page I frequent was literally offended because a guy said she had good taste in music. She couldn't take the compliment and THEN see if the guy turned creepy? No, she had to be offended because she didn't need her taste in music validated.
It's too much. Have some faith not everyone wants in your pants.
The thing to get is that when a guy tells a woman she's looking great or deems her taste in music good, it's the first time he's saying it to her but it may be something she's dealt with dozens of times. Sometimes a guy will have the greatest intentions, but the overall dynamic of guys deciding they will declare who looks great, has good taste, is great at whatever. . . it can be tiring over the course of a lifetime.
Every guy who wants to validate strangers should understand this overall situation so they can at least understand when it goes sideways.
I'll stipulate to that, but shouldn't the woman also be aware that she's imposing her past experience on the current situation, potentially unfairly/inappropriately?
My only point in asking this is that, IMO, communication is a 2-way street. Just like the person speaking needs to be thoughtful and considerate about how they can be interpreted, the person listening needs to be thoughtful and considerate about what might be meant. BOTH parties have to be aware of their own tendencies/biases, no?
Have you ever been in an interaction that went from normal to creepy or even threatening really quickly? That's the balance that many women are pondering when guys make comments like this. I'm not trying to justify bad behavior, I'm just pointing out that lots of women have experience with seemingly routine interactions going south really quickly (and I'm sure there are men who have this experience as well).
Everyone should be considerate. For men who want to compliment people they don't know well, I think consideration includes understanding why a woman might have a negative response to a compliment. That's all I'm saying. It's not that women are randomly deciding that this specific dude wants in their pants . . . it's that lots of experiences with men trying to get in our pants (or do something else unwanted) begins with a seemingly innocent statement.
That's fair. I think I needed the reminder that what starts as a "simple compliment" could potentially turn into a guy waiting by a woman's car outside the gym after her workout (for example). That slope could get really slippery really fast.
That's what tasers are for. 😀
I'm a female who considers myself a feminist. I just also believe in "not all men" and "innocent until proven guilty".
But, then again, I took being told to eat a burrito and asked if I was sick after losing so much weight as compliments.
If we are talking about sending someone to jail, I agree with you. But we're not. We're talking about whether a guy's perception of his own niceness and harmlessness overrides every other consideration in the situation, including a woman's prior experiences with men who haven't wished her well and haven't been harmless.
I would argue that his self-perception should not be the primary consideration, it is only a consideration. A woman's situational awareness and previous experiences can also be considered.
We're not talking about sending someone to jail, we're talking about his feelings. Those aren't nothing. They also aren't everything.
I actually completely agree with this. It just seems like some women are very militant in their thinking.
It's also very different coming from a stranger you've never laid eyes on vs, like someone else pointed out, an acquaintance. There's at least some form of familiarity there.
It's probably for the best but I think it sucks the op was convinced not to say anything.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »John772016 wrote: »John772016 wrote: »When I lost 110lbs I got lots of comments; they started around 55lbs. I took all of them as positive. All.
We're they? No idea. They were to me.
We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human.
I agree with @jjpptt2 , your intention is important and you cannot control their choices. You decided not to say anything and that's fine.
I know when I eventually get back into the gym, I hope some regulars acknowledge my hard work while being locked out.
Try being a woman who is just working out and getting unsolicited comments. All. The. Time.
And no, it's not nice, the words may be nice but the intent and tone is not. So I agree with others, a man commenting on my progress would probably be unwelcome, and probably downright creepy. We don't want or need to hear the opinion of a random person at the gym. Ask why you feel the need to compliment.
That said, the OP seems to have a previous relationship with her, so then I'd say it would be fine.
Except the OP wasn't describing your situation, and I wasn't commenting on your situation but the one he described.
My own comment was I hoped 'the regulars' acknowledge my efforts, not random strangers.
Nothing I said deserved your rebuke.
Fair call.
The bit I took as feeling off in your comment was "We're so wired sometimes to be offended that we can forget that most people are trying to be nice. Awkward, sure, we're human." and that feels so dismissive to me. Whenever a woman says that a man's comments make us uncomfortable, we get hit with the "I'm just trying to be friendly/nice" response, so your comment about being wired to be offended hit a nerve.
The conversation is around whether someone should say something to another person about their appearance. And saying that people are wired to be offended is so dismissive to how people feel about unsolicited comments is appropriate to that conversation
*peeks in*
Even tho no one asked, I'm with John772016 on this.
Someone on a tumblr page I frequent was literally offended because a guy said she had good taste in music. She couldn't take the compliment and THEN see if the guy turned creepy? No, she had to be offended because she didn't need her taste in music validated.
It's too much. Have some faith not everyone wants in your pants.
The thing to get is that when a guy tells a woman she's looking great or deems her taste in music good, it's the first time he's saying it to her but it may be something she's dealt with dozens of times. Sometimes a guy will have the greatest intentions, but the overall dynamic of guys deciding they will declare who looks great, has good taste, is great at whatever. . . it can be tiring over the course of a lifetime.
Every guy who wants to validate strangers should understand this overall situation so they can at least understand when it goes sideways.
I'll stipulate to that, but shouldn't the woman also be aware that she's imposing her past experience on the current situation, potentially unfairly/inappropriately?
My only point in asking this is that, IMO, communication is a 2-way street. Just like the person speaking needs to be thoughtful and considerate about how they can be interpreted, the person listening needs to be thoughtful and considerate about what might be meant. BOTH parties have to be aware of their own tendencies/biases, no?
Have you ever been in an interaction that went from normal to creepy or even threatening really quickly? That's the balance that many women are pondering when guys make comments like this. I'm not trying to justify bad behavior, I'm just pointing out that lots of women have experience with seemingly routine interactions going south really quickly (and I'm sure there are men who have this experience as well).
Everyone should be considerate. For men who want to compliment people they don't know well, I think consideration includes understanding why a woman might have a negative response to a compliment. That's all I'm saying. It's not that women are randomly deciding that this specific dude wants in their pants . . . it's that lots of experiences with men trying to get in our pants (or do something else unwanted) begins with a seemingly innocent statement.
That's fair. I think I needed the reminder that what starts as a "simple compliment" could potentially turn into a guy waiting by a woman's car outside the gym after her workout (for example). That slope could get really slippery really fast.
That's what tasers are for. 😀
I'm a female who considers myself a feminist. I just also believe in "not all men" and "innocent until proven guilty".
But, then again, I took being told to eat a burrito and asked if I was sick after losing so much weight as compliments.
If we are talking about sending someone to jail, I agree with you. But we're not. We're talking about whether a guy's perception of his own niceness and harmlessness overrides every other consideration in the situation, including a woman's prior experiences with men who haven't wished her well and haven't been harmless.
I would argue that his self-perception should not be the primary consideration, it is only a consideration. A woman's situational awareness and previous experiences can also be considered.
We're not talking about sending someone to jail, we're talking about his feelings. Those aren't nothing. They also aren't everything.
I actually completely agree with this. It just seems like some women are very militant in their thinking.
It's also very different coming from a stranger you've never laid eyes on vs, like someone else pointed out, an acquaintance. There's at least some form of familiarity there.
It's probably for the best but I think it sucks the op was convinced not to say anything.
The OP asked for opinions. He got both sides.
Just because he decided to take the polite stance (i.e. Mind Your Own Business/Your own Body) doesn't mean that sucks.
5 -
littlegreenparrot1 wrote: »A day in the life:
Get up - go running. Get shouted at by man passing in a van
Get ready for work - get on train/bus. 'Smile love it might never happen'
Get to destination - walk to work. Get cat called by builders
Work - Not being listened to/ get credit for ideas until male colleagues chime in. Being expected to take the minutes/get the tea as the only woman in the room. Get paid less than male equivalents for the privilege
Trip home from work - as above, possible inappropriate closeness on crowded public transport.
Gym after work - someone who might be perfectly nice tries to make conversation and gets shut down.
I'm not saying that that all of these things happen every day to every woman, but they are fairly typical experiences. I am not interested in other people's opinions of my appearance or performance, it is not my job to be nice to everyone when they choose to tell me anyway.
Anyone who is interested in this kind of thing will find the Everyday Sexism website quite an eye opener.
Yes I am guessing that anyone who doesn't understand the "offense" has never been (1) asked if they want to "do business" by a random man outside their office building (no I don't dress "like a hooker" I was wearing mom jeans and a tweed jacket while dropping off the mail), (2) *literally* chased on the highway so a man can pull up beside and wave at me (3) had someone call from a patio across the street telling me to "come on over" when I was at a work lunch with colleagues (4) been catcalled by a group of teenagers young enough to be my children.
These interactions are not intended to compliment btw - they are meant to exert dominance and control and are humiliating and frightening. Although men may not see their "compliment" in the same category, when it comes from a stranger we just don't want to hear it.
That assumption is incorrect. And calling/negging a woman out of their feminism is also potentially uncouth (but that's respectability politics, and a whole other discussion). This coming from someone who was recently catcalled while on an evening walk with her adult-sized teenaged son.
Still, I have chosen to take every interaction with every person in its individual context. Call me naive but I decided not to live life assuming the worst of people...until they show me the worst of themselves.
The well-meaning and well-intentioned, like the OP, are not the ones needing the Simone de Beauvoir, 4th wave summary.
That said, hopefully someone has gotten a better idea of how to be an active ally to women the next time they - or a friend - starts going wayward with expressing their feelings towards a woman.6 -
littlegreenparrot1 wrote: »A day in the life:
Get up - go running. Get shouted at by man passing in a van
Get ready for work - get on train/bus. 'Smile love it might never happen'
Get to destination - walk to work. Get cat called by builders
Work - Not being listened to/ get credit for ideas until male colleagues chime in. Being expected to take the minutes/get the tea as the only woman in the room. Get paid less than male equivalents for the privilege
Trip home from work - as above, possible inappropriate closeness on crowded public transport.
Gym after work - someone who might be perfectly nice tries to make conversation and gets shut down.
I'm not saying that that all of these things happen every day to every woman, but they are fairly typical experiences. I am not interested in other people's opinions of my appearance or performance, it is not my job to be nice to everyone when they choose to tell me anyway.
Anyone who is interested in this kind of thing will find the Everyday Sexism website quite an eye opener.
Yes I am guessing that anyone who doesn't understand the "offense" has never been (1) asked if they want to "do business" by a random man outside their office building (no I don't dress "like a hooker" I was wearing mom jeans and a tweed jacket while dropping off the mail), (2) *literally* chased on the highway so a man can pull up beside and wave at me (3) had someone call from a patio across the street telling me to "come on over" when I was at a work lunch with colleagues (4) been catcalled by a group of teenagers young enough to be my children.
These interactions are not intended to compliment btw - they are meant to exert dominance and control and are humiliating and frightening. Although men may not see their "compliment" in the same category, when it comes from a stranger we just don't want to hear it.
That assumption is incorrect. And calling/negging a woman out of their feminism is also potentially uncouth (but that's respectability politics, and a whole other discussion). This coming from someone who was recently catcalled while on an evening walk with her adult-sized teenaged son.
Still, I have chosen to take every interaction with every person in its individual context. Call me naive but I decided not to live life assuming the worst of people...until they show me the worst of themselves.
The well-meaning and well-intentioned, like the OP, are not the ones needing the Simone de Beauvoir, 4th wave summary.
That said, hopefully someone has gotten a better idea of how to be an active ally to women the next time they - or a friend - starts going wayward with expressing their feelings towards a woman.
I wasn't calling/negging a woman out of their feminism, the woman I quoted I was agreeing with?
My discussion earlier in the thread was with a man (at least that is what the profile picture indicated) - and my examples were intended to give those people (men) who had never experienced this in their daily lives some context as to the fatigue some of us feel around the subject, and why we may not appreciate any types of comments/compliments from random strangers/aquaintances.
If I inadvertently implied something else in my comments I sincerely apologize for that, to you and anyone else who read it that way, as that was not my intention.
**You are right when rereading I understand where I gave that impression I worded it awkwardly but it is too late to go back and edit the comment.
4 -
@33gail33 no apology needed and the clarification is appreciated.
That said, the unintentional wording in that reply - which could have applied to either gender - was what I was responding to.
It remains relevant because just as many men may not have the experiences mentioned, there are many women who may have had them (along with others) but still choose to relate to people differently. For better or for worse, I'm one of those women.
Sidenote: the whole back half of this thread makes me wanna "rebinge watch" Handmaid's Tale. Who's with me? 🙌🏿4 -
@33gail33 no apology needed and the clarification is appreciated.
That said, the unintentional wording in that reply - which could have applied to either gender - was what I was responding to.
It remains relevant because just as many men may not have the experiences mentioned, there are many women who may have had them (along with others) but still choose to relate to people differently. For better or for worse, I'm one of those women.
Sidenote: the whole back half of this thread makes me wanna "rebinge watch" Handmaid's Tale. Who's with me? 🙌🏿
Yes I see how I definitely universalized my reaction to those experiences - thank you for calling me out on it.2 -
Can I just say one more thing? Well, since none of us actually needs permission, I'm going to anyway.
People have their experiences but when someone who isn't close enough to you to be considered a bestie comes up to you they don't know that. Should they err on the side of caution and not say a damn thing just in case a person's been assaulted or harrassed or whatever? Maybe. But it would be a bleak world if everyone was too scared of the backlash to pay someone a compliment tho.
4 -
This thread reminds me of the beginning of a Robert Burns poem:
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim’rous beastie,
O, what a panic’s in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi’ bickerin brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an’ chase thee
Wi’ murd’ring pattle!
I’m truly sorry Man’s dominion
Has broken Nature’s social union,
An’ justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle,
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An’ fellow-mortal!
...
But Mousie, thou art no thy-lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men
Gang aft agley,
An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain,
For promis’d joy!3 -
Can I just say one more thing? Well, since none of us actually needs permission, I'm going to anyway.
People have their experiences but when someone who isn't close enough to you to be considered a bestie comes up to you they don't know that. Should they err on the side of caution and not say a damn thing just in case a person's been assaulted or harrassed or whatever? Maybe. But it would be a bleak world if everyone was too scared of the backlash to pay someone a compliment tho.
I was just thinking this very thing: that if we all just stopped giving sincere compliments that are generally accepted as socially appropriate because we might offend someone, what kind of world are we living in?
I may be old school, but I think it is socially appropriate to give a sincere compliment about someone's weight loss to an acquaintance you haven't seen in a long time. I don't see "you look great!" to someone who's clearly been working on themselves as offensive? Following it up with "what have you been doing?" and/or something along the lines of how you are trying to improve yourself would probably come off as even less offensive. Most of us know, though, that it's not so much about what you say, but how you say it. If you said while looking her up and down or staring at a specific body part, that would be creepy. Same thing if you were a complete stranger just happens to work out at the same gym, then it comes as being a creepy creeperton. Even if the stranger were being totally sincere, it still can come off weird. Context is everything.
As a female, I totally get the barrage of unsolicited comments from the opposite sex and other unacceptable male-to-female behavior. Unfortunately, while still uncomfortable (to say the least) for us females, some of the catcalling and such wasn't even called out until recently. Are we to the point, though, where only people of the same sex/sexual orientation are allowed to make genuine compliments without being perceived as creepy? I don't know if that's what others are implying, but I hope not.
I'll be honest: if an acquaintance I hadn't seen awhile DIDN'T mention anything about an obvious weight loss, I'd be kind of bummed. I also personally feel weird giving compliments to acquaintances, only because I feel awkward receiving them.
However, those are own issues that I have to deal with, not the person who didn't say anything. There's that saying "You can't control other people's actions, only your reaction to that person." I completely understand why someone who's been the victim of unsolicited creepy comments, gazes, and other offensive acts could be uncomfortable with a compliment such as the OP was suggesting. I know I will get disagrees, but it seems to me that if such sincere, appropriate compliments trigger someone because of those past experiences, maybe there's some work to do on that person's end?4 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »Can I just say one more thing? Well, since none of us actually needs permission, I'm going to anyway.
People have their experiences but when someone who isn't close enough to you to be considered a bestie comes up to you they don't know that. Should they err on the side of caution and not say a damn thing just in case a person's been assaulted or harrassed or whatever? Maybe. But it would be a bleak world if everyone was too scared of the backlash to pay someone a compliment tho.
I was just thinking this very thing: that if we all just stopped giving sincere compliments that are generally accepted as socially appropriate because we might offend someone, what kind of world are we living in?
I may be old school, but I think it is socially appropriate to give a sincere compliment about someone's weight loss to an acquaintance you haven't seen in a long time. I don't see "you look great!" to someone who's clearly been working on themselves as offensive? Following it up with "what have you been doing?" and/or something along the lines of how you are trying to improve yourself would probably come off as even less offensive. Most of us know, though, that it's not so much about what you say, but how you say it. If you said while looking her up and down or staring at a specific body part, that would be creepy. Same thing if you were a complete stranger just happens to work out at the same gym, then it comes as being a creepy creeperton. Even if the stranger were being totally sincere, it still can come off weird. Context is everything.
As a female, I totally get the barrage of unsolicited comments from the opposite sex and other unacceptable male-to-female behavior. Unfortunately, while still uncomfortable (to say the least) for us females, some of the catcalling and such wasn't even called out until recently. Are we to the point, though, where only people of the same sex/sexual orientation are allowed to make genuine compliments without being perceived as creepy? I don't know if that's what others are implying, but I hope not.
I'll be honest: if an acquaintance I hadn't seen awhile DIDN'T mention anything about an obvious weight loss, I'd be kind of bummed. I also personally feel weird giving compliments to acquaintances, only because I feel awkward receiving them.
However, those are own issues that I have to deal with, not the person who didn't say anything. There's that saying "You can't control other people's actions, only your reaction to that person." I completely understand why someone who's been the victim of unsolicited creepy comments, gazes, and other offensive acts could be uncomfortable with a compliment such as the OP was suggesting. I know I will get disagrees, but it seems to me that if such sincere, appropriate compliments trigger someone because of those past experiences, maybe there's some work to do on that person's end?
I don't think anything in this conversation is trying to state what people should be ALLOWED to do. Obviously, men (and others) can choose for themselves what they want to say. The conversation was about the social context that sometimes leads to these comments being unwelcome. Men are allowed to compliment. Women are allowed to have a whole range of varying reactions to that, from being flattered to being indifferent to being annoyed. I don't think that preferring to go through my day without unsolicited comments on how I look has anything to do with being "triggered," it's just a preference. Men don't have to tailor their behavior to my personal preferences, but neither are women obligated to feign delight when they don't feel it.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Speakeasy76 wrote: »Can I just say one more thing? Well, since none of us actually needs permission, I'm going to anyway.
People have their experiences but when someone who isn't close enough to you to be considered a bestie comes up to you they don't know that. Should they err on the side of caution and not say a damn thing just in case a person's been assaulted or harrassed or whatever? Maybe. But it would be a bleak world if everyone was too scared of the backlash to pay someone a compliment tho.
I was just thinking this very thing: that if we all just stopped giving sincere compliments that are generally accepted as socially appropriate because we might offend someone, what kind of world are we living in?
I may be old school, but I think it is socially appropriate to give a sincere compliment about someone's weight loss to an acquaintance you haven't seen in a long time. I don't see "you look great!" to someone who's clearly been working on themselves as offensive? Following it up with "what have you been doing?" and/or something along the lines of how you are trying to improve yourself would probably come off as even less offensive. Most of us know, though, that it's not so much about what you say, but how you say it. If you said while looking her up and down or staring at a specific body part, that would be creepy. Same thing if you were a complete stranger just happens to work out at the same gym, then it comes as being a creepy creeperton. Even if the stranger were being totally sincere, it still can come off weird. Context is everything.
As a female, I totally get the barrage of unsolicited comments from the opposite sex and other unacceptable male-to-female behavior. Unfortunately, while still uncomfortable (to say the least) for us females, some of the catcalling and such wasn't even called out until recently. Are we to the point, though, where only people of the same sex/sexual orientation are allowed to make genuine compliments without being perceived as creepy? I don't know if that's what others are implying, but I hope not.
I'll be honest: if an acquaintance I hadn't seen awhile DIDN'T mention anything about an obvious weight loss, I'd be kind of bummed. I also personally feel weird giving compliments to acquaintances, only because I feel awkward receiving them.
However, those are own issues that I have to deal with, not the person who didn't say anything. There's that saying "You can't control other people's actions, only your reaction to that person." I completely understand why someone who's been the victim of unsolicited creepy comments, gazes, and other offensive acts could be uncomfortable with a compliment such as the OP was suggesting. I know I will get disagrees, but it seems to me that if such sincere, appropriate compliments trigger someone because of those past experiences, maybe there's some work to do on that person's end?
I don't think anything in this conversation is trying to state what people should be ALLOWED to do. Obviously, men (and others) can choose for themselves what they want to say. The conversation was about the social context that sometimes leads to these comments being unwelcome. Men are allowed to compliment. Women are allowed to have a whole range of varying reactions to that, from being flattered to being indifferent to being annoyed. I don't think that preferring to go through my day without unsolicited comments on how I look has anything to do with being "triggered," it's just a preference. Men don't have to tailor their behavior to my personal preferences, but neither are women obligated to feign delight when they don't feel it.[/quot
I also don't think I implied anywhere in my post that women are obligated to "feign delight" when given unsolicited compliments, especially by strangers. I think that's BS, but I also personally think giving a curt "thank you" and going on about your day is feigning delight, either. There is a clear difference between not liking to get unsolicited compliments vs. feeling offended or triggered by them because of past experiences. I also realize that no one in this thread flat-out said what men or women allowed to do, it was more about what has become an seems to be developing into an unspoken social rule (if it's even true).
Of course people are entitled to their own responses to compliments. My comment was more about people being worried that they're going to offend someone by giving a sincere compliment to a friend or an acquaintance for something that is a noticeable difference (like even someone's haircut). As I said in my response, on the whole I don't like compliments about my appearance, either, by either gender. It's more about my own self-consciousness, not about any negative past experiences, though.1 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »Can I just say one more thing? Well, since none of us actually needs permission, I'm going to anyway.
People have their experiences but when someone who isn't close enough to you to be considered a bestie comes up to you they don't know that. Should they err on the side of caution and not say a damn thing just in case a person's been assaulted or harrassed or whatever? Maybe. But it would be a bleak world if everyone was too scared of the backlash to pay someone a compliment tho.
I was just thinking this very thing: that if we all just stopped giving sincere compliments that are generally accepted as socially appropriate because we might offend someone, what kind of world are we living in?
I may be old school, but I think it is socially appropriate to give a sincere compliment about someone's weight loss to an acquaintance you haven't seen in a long time. I don't see "you look great!" to someone who's clearly been working on themselves as offensive? Following it up with "what have you been doing?" and/or something along the lines of how you are trying to improve yourself would probably come off as even less offensive. Most of us know, though, that it's not so much about what you say, but how you say it. If you said while looking her up and down or staring at a specific body part, that would be creepy. Same thing if you were a complete stranger just happens to work out at the same gym, then it comes as being a creepy creeperton. Even if the stranger were being totally sincere, it still can come off weird. Context is everything.
As a female, I totally get the barrage of unsolicited comments from the opposite sex and other unacceptable male-to-female behavior. Unfortunately, while still uncomfortable (to say the least) for us females, some of the catcalling and such wasn't even called out until recently. Are we to the point, though, where only people of the same sex/sexual orientation are allowed to make genuine compliments without being perceived as creepy? I don't know if that's what others are implying, but I hope not.
I'll be honest: if an acquaintance I hadn't seen awhile DIDN'T mention anything about an obvious weight loss, I'd be kind of bummed. I also personally feel weird giving compliments to acquaintances, only because I feel awkward receiving them.
However, those are own issues that I have to deal with, not the person who didn't say anything. There's that saying "You can't control other people's actions, only your reaction to that person." I completely understand why someone who's been the victim of unsolicited creepy comments, gazes, and other offensive acts could be uncomfortable with a compliment such as the OP was suggesting. I know I will get disagrees, but it seems to me that if such sincere, appropriate compliments trigger someone because of those past experiences, maybe there's some work to do on that person's end?
I guess it depends on your definition of appropriate - unless it is a good friend or work out partner, or I have asked for feedback, I don't think it IS appropriate for someone to comment on my body.
I got the impression from the OP that this person was a gym acquaintance, who I inferred (perhaps incorrectly) that they only see at the gym. And since they came to a public forum to ask if it was appropriate to comment it doesn't seem that they know them that well, or have discussed this type of thing in the past. So that is the context of my response.
And the implication that one's preference to not receive those types of comments means that that they are "triggered" and have some work to do on their end - I don't even know what to say about that. I mean I have a lot of thoughts about that but this probably isn't the place for it.5 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »Can I just say one more thing? Well, since none of us actually needs permission, I'm going to anyway.
People have their experiences but when someone who isn't close enough to you to be considered a bestie comes up to you they don't know that. Should they err on the side of caution and not say a damn thing just in case a person's been assaulted or harrassed or whatever? Maybe. But it would be a bleak world if everyone was too scared of the backlash to pay someone a compliment tho.
I was just thinking this very thing: that if we all just stopped giving sincere compliments that are generally accepted as socially appropriate because we might offend someone, what kind of world are we living in?
I may be old school, but I think it is socially appropriate to give a sincere compliment about someone's weight loss to an acquaintance you haven't seen in a long time. I don't see "you look great!" to someone who's clearly been working on themselves as offensive? Following it up with "what have you been doing?" and/or something along the lines of how you are trying to improve yourself would probably come off as even less offensive. Most of us know, though, that it's not so much about what you say, but how you say it. If you said while looking her up and down or staring at a specific body part, that would be creepy. Same thing if you were a complete stranger just happens to work out at the same gym, then it comes as being a creepy creeperton. Even if the stranger were being totally sincere, it still can come off weird. Context is everything.
As a female, I totally get the barrage of unsolicited comments from the opposite sex and other unacceptable male-to-female behavior. Unfortunately, while still uncomfortable (to say the least) for us females, some of the catcalling and such wasn't even called out until recently. Are we to the point, though, where only people of the same sex/sexual orientation are allowed to make genuine compliments without being perceived as creepy? I don't know if that's what others are implying, but I hope not.
I'll be honest: if an acquaintance I hadn't seen awhile DIDN'T mention anything about an obvious weight loss, I'd be kind of bummed. I also personally feel weird giving compliments to acquaintances, only because I feel awkward receiving them.
However, those are own issues that I have to deal with, not the person who didn't say anything. There's that saying "You can't control other people's actions, only your reaction to that person." I completely understand why someone who's been the victim of unsolicited creepy comments, gazes, and other offensive acts could be uncomfortable with a compliment such as the OP was suggesting. I know I will get disagrees, but it seems to me that if such sincere, appropriate compliments trigger someone because of those past experiences, maybe there's some work to do on that person's end?
I guess it depends on your definition of appropriate - unless it is a good friend or work out partner, or I have asked for feedback, I don't think it IS appropriate for someone to comment on my body.
I got the impression from the OP that this person was a gym acquaintance, who I inferred (perhaps incorrectly) that they only see at the gym. And since they came to a public forum to ask if it was appropriate to comment it doesn't seem that they know them that well, or have discussed this type of thing in the past. So that is the context of my response.
And the implication that one's preference to not receive those types of comments means that that they are "triggered" and have some work to do on their end - I don't even know what to say about that. I mean I have a lot of thoughts about that but this probably isn't the place for it.
I don't think I implied that a woman preferring not to receive compliments and being triggered as the same thing. I meant triggered as in past traumatic experiences causing her to become very upset and/or offended. That's typically what I mean when I say "triggered." In reading the posts, I also wasn't the first person to make this kind of assumption. I also said that I generally feel awkward with compliments and sometimes don't like them, even when I know they were well-intended. I don't think this means I'm "triggered," just not good at dealing with them for a number of reasons. I will be the first to admit that there is some work I need to do on myself to become better at accepting some of them.
I do think it's appropriate for an acquaintance I hadn't seen in a long time to comment on my weight loss if I'd clearly put in the work AND it was at the gym, where it was also clear my results were paying off...as long as the intentions were pure, which it seems pretty evident from this man's post that they were. You wouldn't think that it's appropriate, and that's okay. In reading these posts, there are people on both sides of this debate, so I think it's one of those things that maybe there isn't a right or wrong (as social expectations are typically ever-evolving).2 -
Wow, came back to this topic after 4 pages of replies were added. Needless to say I only skimmed those 4 pages. BUT, not that anyone cares.....:) IMO people jump to conclusions with people's intent, they tend to analyze why something was said, what was meant by that, was it meant to be racial/sexual/gender, etc., etc. motivated. What happened to the days when someone could offer a simple kind compliment without this kind of fear involved? I certainly don't mean any type of sexual harassment type thing because clearly those are not acceptable by any means. There is a major difference between comments like 'I'd love to jump your bones' or when your eyes won't leave a woman's anatomy or if you're just saying 'you look great'.
I feel we spend so much time worrying about being politically correct, that we ignore trying to make people feel good, appreciated, noticed, etc.. Intention says it all and a lot of that is perceived by body language.
Mind you, these are simply my opinions. Disagree all you want because I'm trying to make it to 1K.
I remember growing up to my parents' mantra of 'if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all.'
Do we need to change that whole mindset? Life is too dang confusing as it is. 8 -
I remember growing up to my parents' mantra of 'if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all.'
Do we need to change that whole mindset? Life is too dang confusing as it is.
I think the question that needs to preface the "say something nice or nothing at all" consideration is whether the thing you're about to comment is any of your business in the first place, and how you'd personally feel if the roles were reversed and that person came to you with a similar comment.
Other people's appearances are rarely my business, and even when complimenting friends or acquaintances I try to make it about their choices/taste instead of physical features. Instead of commenting on somebody's weight, muscles or facial features, I'd comment on their lovely new dress, lipstick shade or haircut, ask follow-up questions about where they got it and see where the conversation leads. If there has been a significant change in workouts, weight loss etc., people often mention in it while talking about their pretty new dress, for example, and that opens a natural avenue for compliments/congratulations/whatever since they were the ones that brought it up.6 -
I am a man who typically avoids talking to a woman that is not well known to me about her appearance unless it is troubling. I would also not engage in conversation HOPING I can comment on how great she is looking either. Whether I intend to do it or not I may try to lead the conversation in that direction and if that happens I will probably not be nearly as subtle as I might think I am being.
I assume that a person is getting fit for themselves, not for compliments. If they want compliments they can certainly fish for them. I am not a great place to fish for them but others will be more willing to bite.
7 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »Speakeasy76 wrote: »Can I just say one more thing? Well, since none of us actually needs permission, I'm going to anyway.
People have their experiences but when someone who isn't close enough to you to be considered a bestie comes up to you they don't know that. Should they err on the side of caution and not say a damn thing just in case a person's been assaulted or harrassed or whatever? Maybe. But it would be a bleak world if everyone was too scared of the backlash to pay someone a compliment tho.
I was just thinking this very thing: that if we all just stopped giving sincere compliments that are generally accepted as socially appropriate because we might offend someone, what kind of world are we living in?
I may be old school, but I think it is socially appropriate to give a sincere compliment about someone's weight loss to an acquaintance you haven't seen in a long time. I don't see "you look great!" to someone who's clearly been working on themselves as offensive? Following it up with "what have you been doing?" and/or something along the lines of how you are trying to improve yourself would probably come off as even less offensive. Most of us know, though, that it's not so much about what you say, but how you say it. If you said while looking her up and down or staring at a specific body part, that would be creepy. Same thing if you were a complete stranger just happens to work out at the same gym, then it comes as being a creepy creeperton. Even if the stranger were being totally sincere, it still can come off weird. Context is everything.
As a female, I totally get the barrage of unsolicited comments from the opposite sex and other unacceptable male-to-female behavior. Unfortunately, while still uncomfortable (to say the least) for us females, some of the catcalling and such wasn't even called out until recently. Are we to the point, though, where only people of the same sex/sexual orientation are allowed to make genuine compliments without being perceived as creepy? I don't know if that's what others are implying, but I hope not.
I'll be honest: if an acquaintance I hadn't seen awhile DIDN'T mention anything about an obvious weight loss, I'd be kind of bummed. I also personally feel weird giving compliments to acquaintances, only because I feel awkward receiving them.
However, those are own issues that I have to deal with, not the person who didn't say anything. There's that saying "You can't control other people's actions, only your reaction to that person." I completely understand why someone who's been the victim of unsolicited creepy comments, gazes, and other offensive acts could be uncomfortable with a compliment such as the OP was suggesting. I know I will get disagrees, but it seems to me that if such sincere, appropriate compliments trigger someone because of those past experiences, maybe there's some work to do on that person's end?
I guess it depends on your definition of appropriate - unless it is a good friend or work out partner, or I have asked for feedback, I don't think it IS appropriate for someone to comment on my body.
I got the impression from the OP that this person was a gym acquaintance, who I inferred (perhaps incorrectly) that they only see at the gym. And since they came to a public forum to ask if it was appropriate to comment it doesn't seem that they know them that well, or have discussed this type of thing in the past. So that is the context of my response.
And the implication that one's preference to not receive those types of comments means that that they are "triggered" and have some work to do on their end - I don't even know what to say about that. I mean I have a lot of thoughts about that but this probably isn't the place for it.
I don't think I implied that a woman preferring not to receive compliments and being triggered as the same thing. I meant triggered as in past traumatic experiences causing her to become very upset and/or offended. That's typically what I mean when I say "triggered." In reading the posts, I also wasn't the first person to make this kind of assumption. I also said that I generally feel awkward with compliments and sometimes don't like them, even when I know they were well-intended. I don't think this means I'm "triggered," just not good at dealing with them for a number of reasons. I will be the first to admit that there is some work I need to do on myself to become better at accepting some of them.
I do think it's appropriate for an acquaintance I hadn't seen in a long time to comment on my weight loss if I'd clearly put in the work AND it was at the gym, where it was also clear my results were paying off...as long as the intentions were pure, which it seems pretty evident from this man's post that they were. You wouldn't think that it's appropriate, and that's okay. In reading these posts, there are people on both sides of this debate, so I think it's one of those things that maybe there isn't a right or wrong (as social expectations are typically ever-evolving).
I am not sure where the line is between "common experiences that influence preferences" and "past traumatic experiences that are triggering" - my interpretation of the examples in this thread is that they were mostly the former.
But if we accept that these common interactions that are experienced by women on the daily can in fact be traumatizing, then we may have a not insignificant percentage of women walking around with low level trauma from these frequent micro-aggressions.
The suggestion that the solution to that is that these women need to "work on themselves" in order to avoid the "bleak future" they are creating in which men might have to take a moment to think about how someone that they don't know very well might react to their comments, and perhaps even self censor themselves and refrain from commenting at all, is I think indicative of how these things are viewed on a societal level. To my personal dismay.7 -
33gail, thanks for continuing to engage with the people who think we should just, "Get over it."
I am constantly confused by men and their beliefs that I *should* react to their inappropriate comments in a way they think, or they get aggressive. How about they learn not to blurt out things about other peoples' bodies - in general?
I had a guy who I just met at the beach start to ask me about a thing about my body and I replied, "Oh, is that what we're doing now? Commenting on a stranger's body? How would you like it if I pointed out some thing about your body and asked questions? Where should I start? Head or foot?" Then I took a long moment and scanned his entire body.
That shut down further discussion.11 -
For most of my life almost all of my good friends have been women. At some point I realized that there was a cumulative impact of being treated as an object. It was about then that I resolved I would do my best to avoid ever being part of the problem again.
As I have gotten older though I also realize that appearance is one of the least interesting things about a person. It is subjective, temporary, and largely out of the control of the person. You may be one of the people that has genetics that allow you to align for a significant portion of your life with cultural values of beauty but people will still usually say "he/she looks good FOR THEIR AGE." The rest of us can lose weight, tone up, and we will look good compared to other people but I have no interest in winning the comparison game. I want to feel good for me and be able to do the things I want to do for as long as I can do them. I was once always the largest person in the room now I am not and some other person has to deal with it AND I HATE THAT FOR THEM.
A beautiful person is one that maintains a loving spirit for the people around them. I would much rather be in a conversation with them praising them for how well they treat other people than what they look like. I would certainly not want to be in a conversation with a person who treats people around them badly no matter how high they might rank in a cultural beauty contest.11
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