It is NOT as simple as Calories In Calories Out (CICO)

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Ann262
Ann262 Posts: 265 Member
edited May 2021 in Motivation and Support
In my experience, weight loss trends or "fads" that come and go don't work because they aren't sustainable. Why do these fads keep coming and going? I believe it is because weight loss is not as simple as CICO. People know it and some look to make a buck selling a new approach that may appear somehow easier at first blush.

If you are struggling, and someone is telling you that it is as simple as CICO, they are wrong. The truth is, weight loss and weight management is easier for some than others for a bunch of reasons too long to list. Telling anyone who is struggling that it is as simple as CICO and they just need to eat less is tantamount to calling them a failure and is mean spirited. It is much more complicated than will power.

Change is hard, DAMN HARD, and we humans stumble along the way. All of us do. Those of us who are trying to accomplish something hard and stumble, or don't see the results we hoped for on the scale aren't failures. We are BRAVE. It takes courage to work for positive change and even more courage talk about it.

kEEP AT IT BRAVE WARRIORS! You are strong!



Replies

  • Ann262
    Ann262 Posts: 265 Member
    edited May 2021
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    [/quote]

    When people say it is as simple as CICO, they are referring to the math...which is simple. Simple doesn't make it necessarily easy and I've rarely heard anyone say it's easy...but the basic premise of weight management is simple math.[/quote]

    It would be simple math if one really knew how many calories they are burning. Garmin and fitbit help but it still varies from person to person. While one can meticulously weigh and measure to get fairly accurate on calories in...often we are still dependent on the accuracy of labels, it is impossible to know how much we really burn. I am a 61 year old 5'4" tall woman who sits at a desk all day. I doubt my daily burn doing that is exactly the same as every other 61 year old 5'4" woman sitting at a desk all day. In fact, we KNOW that people with more muscle mass burn more calories at rest than those with less. We know that people who don't eat enough, start burning fewer calories while at rest. While the mathematical equation might be simple, getting the accurate numbers to plug into the equation isn't so easy. Perhaps, you have figured out the right numbers for you. I am glad for you for that.

    While yes, we need a calorie deficit to lose weight, how to do that is complicated. Not all calories are created equal either. If my 1400 calorie per day budget is made up of fruits, vegetable and lean protein, I will be able to eat 3 meals, 2 snacks and go to bed without hunger pangs. If my 1400 calories are made up of things like bagels, chips and soda pop, I am probably going to out of calorie budget by mid afternoon and will go to bed hungry, unless is eat more which is what I will probably do. Most people have days are neither of those extremes, of course.

    Yes, CICO is important but how you use your calorie budget matters.

    Then there is the psychology of dealing with emotions around food. The struggle is real. If you have never had to cope with it, you have no idea.

    Food is not our enemy. Shaming people because they haven't yet figured out their math is not supportive or helpful.

  • snowflake954
    snowflake954 Posts: 8,400 Member
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    sijomial wrote: »
    Don't conflate calorie counting with CICO or you will tie yourself in knots trying to argue against a fundamental truth. They are two different things.

    Yes calories really are equal - that's how units of measurement work.
    Food and calories are not synonyms, nutrition and calories are not synonyms. If you want to talk about nutrition then talk about nutrition. Your message gets badly diluted by using pop culture terms that actually confuse rather than clarify.

    The post that seems to have triggered your rant wasn't helpful let alone tactful to that thread's OP, but there was a message in it.

    Yes the struggle is real, that some people are successful doesn't mean they haven't struggled with their own demons to win that struggle.

    This--CICO and calorie counting are 2 different things. It doesn't seem like you know the difference.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 32,085 Member
    edited May 2021
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    Ann262 wrote: »

    When people say it is as simple as CICO, they are referring to the math...which is simple. Simple doesn't make it necessarily easy and I've rarely heard anyone say it's easy...but the basic premise of weight management is simple math.

    It would be simple math if one really knew how many calories they are burning. Garmin and fitbit help but it still varies from person to person. While one can meticulously weigh and measure to get fairly accurate on calories in...often we are still dependent on the accuracy of labels, it is impossible to know how much we really burn. I am a 61 year old 5'4" tall woman who sits at a desk all day. I doubt my daily burn doing that is exactly the same as every other 61 year old 5'4" woman sitting at a desk all day. In fact, we KNOW that people with more muscle mass burn more calories at rest than those with less. We know that people who don't eat enough, start burning fewer calories while at rest. While the mathematical equation might be simple, getting the accurate numbers to plug into the equation isn't so easy. Perhaps, you have figured out the right numbers for you. I am glad for you for that.

    While yes, we need a calorie deficit to lose weight, how to do that is complicated. Not all calories are created equal either. If my 1400 calorie per day budget is made up of fruits, vegetable and lean protein, I will be able to eat 3 meals, 2 snacks and go to bed without hunger pangs. If my 1400 calories are made up of things like bagels, chips and soda pop, I am probably going to out of calorie budget by mid afternoon and will go to bed hungry, unless is eat more which is what I will probably do. Most people have days are neither of those extremes, of course.

    Yes, CICO is important but how you use your calorie budget matters.

    Then there is the psychology of dealing with emotions around food. The struggle is real. If you have never had to cope with it, you have no idea.

    Food is not our enemy. Shaming people because they haven't yet figured out their math is not supportive or helpful.

    Perhaps your experience differs, but in my experience here, threads where it's relevant don't go on very long without someone mentioning that nutrition is important for health, that satiation is a big deal but individual (plus suggestions of things to try), mentioning the role of things like sleep/stress/emotions/boredom/habit (and offering ideas to deal with them), and describing how to run a 4-6 week experiment to figure out one's reasonably-correct calorie needs level after starting with MFP's (or another calculator's) estimate as a starting point. I've typed those kinds of things myself, too many times to count. (Telling people that fitness trackers only give *estimates*, not "truth", is one of my personal missions.)

    In any thread, there are going to be both simplistic and nuanced answers. In some threads, one or the other may take over. But if someone reads here for a while, without getting offended when some people put things in ways they don't find diplomatic, I think one can get a decent idea of how to go about the process in a way that will work for the overwhelming majority of people. It still won't be easy, necessarily, psychologically or for practical reasons (cost, time constraints, whatever). And yes, there will be a few people who are truly unusual, who may need a medical consult or other professional help.

    (I'd point out that MFP's calorie estimate for me is wildly incorrect, that I have various conditions other say make weight loss impossible (hypothyroid, old, menopausal, etc.). I admit that emotional eating is not one of my personal big challenges, but I do have empathy for others, and recognize that as a key challenge for many people.)

    CICO, the calorie balance equation, is a fact, and it is a key foundation piece. It's not the whole edifice, by far. It's true for everyone, but of course that's not all there is to it. The other pieces get discussed here day in and day out.

    Calorie counting (as distinct from CICO) is a weight loss method, one favored here because it's a calorie counting site, after all. But calorie counting is not the only method or universally the best method for everyone. For a few people, it really can't work at all, as a practical matter. (Example: Those with cycling thyroid conditions that unpredictably take them from hypo to hyper and back again). Those people need help that us experienced amateurs can't offer. A certain amount of back and forth may need to happen before folks understand that that's what the problem is. Basic problems are common, so discussion starts there. It needn't stop there, if the conversation keeps going.

    It's common for a thread to start with the basics of calorie balance and calorie counting, but if the OP is patient and forthcoming about what they're struggling with, there are folks here who'll delve into potentially relevant but more narrowly applicable things like adaptive thermogenesis, the effect of various metabolic conditions, the potential results of previous rounds of yo-yo dieting on calorie needs and what some options are, the effects of appetite hormones and what to do about them, arcane details of exercise calorie estimating, resources and experiential tips for the emotional/psychological challenges, and much, much more.

    Yes, this whole picture is not easy. The basic mathematical foundation is pretty simple, and that's where advice starts, often. It's not necessarily where the advice ends, IME.

    The best way for people to get decent advice, is for people who think that's important to give what they consider decent advice. (We won't all agree on what that is.) I sometimes learn from people who criticize my or others' advice, but I'm not sure that critique is really is the best way to improve the average advice quality on the site.

    P.S. Yes, the person who posted a reply on a particular thread that just said "CICO" was not especially helpful. There was a lot of other stuff on that thread, some of it much more nuanced.
  • anna_lowe
    anna_lowe Posts: 39 Member
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    i do not count calories. it made me OCD and led me to a bad restrict/binge problem, there was nothing 'easy' about it for me, i agree it's not simple.

    but i do believe in the simple math of cico. the rub lies in getting the equation on your side :smile:
  • Ann262
    Ann262 Posts: 265 Member
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    Of course the science, the math of CICO is spot on. My point is that it is tricky getting the numbers right because no 2 people are alike. There is so much more to weight loss than just CICO. When someone is struggling and talks about it, just telling them they are eating too much is not very supportive, even if it is true. They probably already know that.

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