Food sucks
Options
Replies
-
Theoldguy1 wrote: »Small study - but still. Personally I don't think that we can definitively assert that meal timing doesn't have any effect on fat loss.
Metabolic Effects of Late Dinner in Healthy Volunteers—A Randomized Crossover Clinical Trial
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/105/8/2789/5855227?redirectedFrom=fulltext
This graphic or a variant has been out there from various sources, Can meal timing make a difference, most likely but for the way the vast majority of the US eats it is majoring in the minors. Lot to fix before being concerned with meal timing:
I always find it interesting that the general consensus at MFP is that every morsel of food should be weighed and accounted for (CI) because small amounts can add up, but other factors that impact small amounts of calories (CO) are considered irrelevant.
As the study concludes: "these effects might promote obesity if they recur chronically."
"Lot to fix before being concerned with meal timing"
The OP specifically mentioned meal timing, so while you might not think it is relevant, it seems that they do.
My point to the original poster (and anyone else talking about the impact of meal timing) is that activity is really majoring in the minors when it comes to weight loss/nutrition.
Looking at the calorie consumed vs calories burned and the nutritional content of the foods one eats is going to get one a lot further on a weight loss/health journey than worrying about timing of eating.
Just because you can measure something (like the small sample study you posted) doesn't mean it is relevant for most people.6 -
I always find it interesting that the general consensus at MFP is that every morsel of food should be weighed and accounted for (CI) because small amounts can add up, but other factors that impact small amounts of calories (CO) are considered irrelevant.
Lots of people here don't weigh food (or even log). What is generally the consensus is that weighing can help if someone thinks they are eating a certain calorie level and not losing. Often the issue there is a lack of accuracy.As the study concludes: "these effects might promote obesity if they recur chronically."
Absent the study itself, rather than an abstract, I'm not convinced we can say much, but the abstract starts with the fact that late eating is ASSOCIATED with obesity and metabolic syndrome (which is likely bc late eating in people who don't control cals is associated with excess cals, IMO), and concludes not that it actually interferes with fat loss, but that eating dinner within one hour of going to sleep seems to "induce[] nocturnal glucose intolerance, and reduce[] fatty acid oxidation and mobilization, particularly in earlier sleepers." It then says -- without explanation in the abstract that "[t]hese effects MIGHT promote obesity if they recur chronically." (Emphasis added)
And yeah, they might. I am open to meal timing having some small effect on calorie burning, and I also think it has a significant effect in some people on satiety and satisfaction. But the latter is why I think it is not a great idea to tell someone that if they want to lose fat they really should make sure they eat dinner by 6 pm (the supposed "routine" dinner in the study). Personally (and I am far from the only person in this situation), I normally work until after 6, and then commute home and sometimes then exercise. I really don't know anyone but retired people who can routinely eat at 6.
So does that mean I cannot lose fat? No, in fact I lost weight as fast as predicted or more when eating dinner routinely at 9. (Of course, that is not within an hour of when I go to bed.)
I seriously doubt CO is significantly impacted by eating at 6 vs 9, and as theoldguy said, I would focus on other issues, including what helps me feel sated and satisfied and not hungry. If eating earlier is helpful here, I would recommend that, but if eating later works better (absent other health issues related to that), I would not say that one still should eat earlier because there might be a small CO advantage. So many other things affect CO. (Similarly, I would not recommend eating a diet that is 65% protein just because protein digestion burns more cals.)"Lot to fix before being concerned with meal timing"
The OP specifically mentioned meal timing, so while you might not think it is relevant, it seems that they do.
OP did not say initially why he was concerned with timing or why he thought he was eating at the wrong time. Subsequently he said "dawn phenomenon," which seems to be T2D or insulin resistance related. Quick googling does suggest that maybe that's related to eating too many carbs late in the day, but I think OP should clarify why he thinks he is eating at the wrong time and, if so, what his struggle is with wanting to eat then.6 -
Uh, I don't track closely and I've never used a kitchen scale (beyond baking) consistently. Maybe 3 times in 18 months. No one gave me grief because I NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH LOSS. If you are not losing, counting accuracy will probably at least HELP you find answers - and even if this IS the issue you're going to need some level of accurate calorie estimation re: Calories in - to sort it out. Because all this impacts is maybe some minor degree of calories out. Which is useless information if you can't work out the calories in part of things.6
-
There are numerous observational studies that correlate meal timing with obesity, too many for me to believe that the connection is strictly behavioral rather than metabolic.
I don't think it is irrelevant. But I'm not going to debate about it.
(My post was basically in response to the one above mine that stated, in all caps, that "IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FAT LOSS". <<I just don’t think that statement is accurate.)
2 -
There are numerous observational studies that correlate meal timing with obesity, too many for me to believe that the connection is strictly behavioral rather than metabolic.
I don't think it is irrelevant. But I'm not going to debate about it.
(My post was basically in response to the one above mine that stated, in all caps, that "IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FAT LOSS". <<I just don’t think that statement is accurate.)
I know and respect that you don't want to debate; that doesn't mean I can't/don't want to comment, though.
I agree that timing might have something to do with fat loss . . . but I agree with Lemur that compliance with calorie goal (via satiation) likely looms larger as a consideration in picking a certain eating schedule, vs. any speculated metabolic effects.
Correlation of evening eating to obesity could have any number of causal arrows in either direction from eating timing to weight gain, or from weight gain to eating timing.
When I was an obese person, if I ate all day, I could fit in more calories, and calories (in the forms I like them) are tasty. It's easier for me to stay obese if I eat into the evening, right up to bedtime, and it's fun/enjoyable. Also, when I'm obese, it's less enjoyable to do active things (and that was true even though I was an athletically active obese person). The fatigue from all-day movement comes home to roost in the evening, triggering both appetite (fatigue = energy seeking) and in my case, bored or habitual evening eating while doing sedentary things. I could go on with other possible causal factors.
Is there a biological piece? Maybe, I dunno (. . . and that's roughly what the study you linked concluded, as you say: "these effects might promote obesity if they recur chronically." . . . I'd just do the bolding a little differently as shown.)
Yeah, it's worth considering, and that's possibly extra true if someone (like OP, maybe) is diabetic or insulin resistant already. I still think compliance is a bigger factor in finding weight management success, though, for most people.
As an aside: Those things I said about myself as an obese person, a couple of paragraphs up, are absolutely true things about my past. Nonetheless, I still eat from soon after I get up in the morning, until pretty close to bedtime, including eating very late dinners right before bed sometimes. I did that all through weight loss. I'm not obese anymore, haven't been obese since 2015. I weigh more in the AM when I eat dinner late, because water retention and food in transit. I don't gain back more weight when I eat late as a pattern (which sometimes I do, seasonally, at consistent calorie levels). Is there some small effect on my weight? I wouldn't rule it out, in the abstract. But - for me - it's not observable or significant.
Will that be the same for everyone? Possibly not. I trust them to experiment, figure it out. Cynically, I think the more things we speculatively attribute to "metabolism" or "physiology", the less likely we are to run our own experiments, figure things out. Just my opinion, though.6 -
I always find it interesting that the general consensus at MFP is that every morsel of food should be weighed and accounted for (CI) because small amounts can add up, but other factors that impact small amounts of calories (CO) are considered irrelevant.
Lots of people here don't weigh food (or even log). What is generally the consensus is that weighing can help if someone thinks they are eating a certain calorie level and not losing. Often the issue there is a lack of accuracy.As the study concludes: "these effects might promote obesity if they recur chronically."
Absent the study itself, rather than an abstract, I'm not convinced we can say much, but the abstract starts with the fact that late eating is ASSOCIATED with obesity and metabolic syndrome (which is likely bc late eating in people who don't control cals is associated with excess cals, IMO), and concludes not that it actually interferes with fat loss, but that eating dinner within one hour of going to sleep seems to "induce[] nocturnal glucose intolerance, and reduce[] fatty acid oxidation and mobilization, particularly in earlier sleepers." It then says -- without explanation in the abstract that "[t]hese effects MIGHT promote obesity if they recur chronically." (Emphasis added)
And yeah, they might. I am open to meal timing having some small effect on calorie burning, and I also think it has a significant effect in some people on satiety and satisfaction. But the latter is why I think it is not a great idea to tell someone that if they want to lose fat they really should make sure they eat dinner by 6 pm (the supposed "routine" dinner in the study). Personally (and I am far from the only person in this situation), I normally work until after 6, and then commute home and sometimes then exercise. I really don't know anyone but retired people who can routinely eat at 6.
So does that mean I cannot lose fat? No, in fact I lost weight as fast as predicted or more when eating dinner routinely at 9. (Of course, that is not within an hour of when I go to bed.)
I seriously doubt CO is significantly impacted by eating at 6 vs 9, and as theoldguy said, I would focus on other issues, including what helps me feel sated and satisfied and not hungry. If eating earlier is helpful here, I would recommend that, but if eating later works better (absent other health issues related to that), I would not say that one still should eat earlier because there might be a small CO advantage. So many other things affect CO. (Similarly, I would not recommend eating a diet that is 65% protein just because protein digestion burns more cals.)"Lot to fix before being concerned with meal timing"
The OP specifically mentioned meal timing, so while you might not think it is relevant, it seems that they do.
OP did not say initially why he was concerned with timing or why he thought he was eating at the wrong time. Subsequently he said "dawn phenomenon," which seems to be T2D or insulin resistance related. Quick googling does suggest that maybe that's related to eating too many carbs late in the day, but I think OP should clarify why he thinks he is eating at the wrong time and, if so, what his struggle is with wanting to eat then.
Dawn phenomenon regarding insulin resistance, non diabetic related. I worry about this because my sleeping habits reflect a toddlers. While there is a hint of sarcasm there it is not far off. In short I sleep when my body gets tired enough to sleep as a result of apnea and insomnia.
I recognize that plays a part in weight loss as well or lack thereof. I was the same way in the Military, but it was beneficial.
My worries are that if I eat when I am awake all of the time to get in the proper calories or protein at least, than I will be eating between 2 and 6 am half of the time. And that while I attempt to not have terrible foods, life goes on and it happens. But does it have a profound effect at night time hours due to the circadian rhythm?
The problem isn't what I struggle with in eating, it is that I don't struggle with what I am eating. Other than there are never sodas or complete trash in the house. If I decide I want a snack. I eat it. Regardless of what else I have eaten during the day/night. That being said I also rarely encounter day above 1500 calories and often get the "you aren't eating enough" warning when entering my foods for the day. Some days my macros are low. One day a week so far I have gone over with either carbs or fat but not both.0 -
Plans are worthless, but planning is everything - Dwight D. Eisenhower
Plan to succeed. Easy to say, but hard to do! Unconsciously we often do things that set ourselves up for failure.
Some things I do food-wise to prevent sabotaging myself...
- Don't buy it. If I don't buy that carton of ice cream or bag of chips it won't be sitting there waiting for me to eat it.
- Make a grocery list (and stick to it). Plan to buy good foods before going to the store, and don't buy the junk that's going to blow up your calorie goal.
- Brush and floss. May not work for everyone, but I carefully clean my teeth when I've eaten all I should for the day. When I feel the urge to eat more, I remember that I want to keep my teeth clean until tomorrow.
Find things that work for you. It takes time and maybe several failed attempts, but success will come if you don't give up the fight!2 -
makinlifehappen wrote: »My worries are that if I eat when I am awake all of the time to get in the proper calories or protein at least, than I will be eating between 2 and 6 am half of the time. And that while I attempt to not have terrible foods, life goes on and it happens. But does it have a profound effect at night time hours due to the circadian rhythm?
The problem isn't what I struggle with in eating, it is that I don't struggle with what I am eating. Other than there are never sodas or complete trash in the house. If I decide I want a snack. I eat it. Regardless of what else I have eaten during the day/night. That being said I also rarely encounter day above 1500 calories and often get the "you aren't eating enough" warning when entering my foods for the day. Some days my macros are low. One day a week so far I have gone over with either carbs or fat but not both.
Yeah, I suspect it's not ideal to eat in the middle of the night -- I do believe that circadian rhythm matters to some extent, but also it seems likely to interfere with sleep and digestion and to be worse if one is IR. Maybe try planning meals/meal timing ahead for a week and see how that goes. I would make sure you get the MFP recommended cals. It also might help with sleep patterns.1 -
What?! food is Awesome! We’re meant to enjoy food as humans I think. abandonment of self control is another thing. Just like the military you’re going to need to plan and be consistent in a routine as far as food goes. Daily.
What I found helps as a motivator is to look at people who have lost weight on the community boards here.
As a veteran one thing I do recognize is are my food choices ghetto? Am I working out like I’m a 20 year old still?
I hope that helps!
1 -
there is no bad food or bad time.
just bad QUANTITIES and poor NUTRITION.
even junk food is fine in limited quantities (hell i just had a small brownie with my coffee LMAO)
what I recommend is re-evaluating your perception toward food, and learning how to eat a well balanced diet, that includes those things you are considering 'bad'.
Cliffs Notes of Weight Loss:- small, sustainable changes
- Understand weight fluctuations are normal. Thinks of a roller coaster, not a steep mountain slope down. Some weeks up, some weeks down. Its the OVERALL TREND that matters
- Learn to weigh your food ON A FOOD SCALE
- Learn how to find ACCURATE DATABASE ENTRIES
- BE ACTIVE - get off your butt and MOVE. Find SOMETHING you enjoy. If your activity is limited, find ways to move that you are ABLE to do
- Deprivation is the key to Binging and falling off the wagon. Learn how to fit your favorite things in regularly. There are no 'bad foods' Just 'bad quantities'.
- One 'bad' day will not undo your deficit.
- You did not gain the weight quickly. You will not lose it quickly. Better to lose it slowly, and KEEP IT OFF, then lose it quick, and gain it all back and more!
2
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 390 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 921 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions