Is it possible to gain some muscle while losing weight?
fatty2begone
Posts: 249 Member
I've read many posts that indicate you cannot gain muscle in a calorie deficit. My question is why not? I am not talking having a sculpted body. I am talking building muscle in general.
I am 53 Female too heavy, losing weight, having very little upper body strength. I am going to be adding some upper weightlifting to try to give a little more muscle. I would like to be able to open a jar of something without having to bang it or pass it on to someone else to open. (If I develop awesome arms in the process that would just be a bonus
)
Someday, when I am lean, I would love to have some muscle definition. But until then, is it possible to add some muscle strength?
IF the answer is yes, I will be using an older bowflex, bench with the flexible arm band things, Any idea what weight I should start out? I have little upper strength at present.
Thanks for replies for any wisdom that can be offered.
I am 53 Female too heavy, losing weight, having very little upper body strength. I am going to be adding some upper weightlifting to try to give a little more muscle. I would like to be able to open a jar of something without having to bang it or pass it on to someone else to open. (If I develop awesome arms in the process that would just be a bonus
)Someday, when I am lean, I would love to have some muscle definition. But until then, is it possible to add some muscle strength?
IF the answer is yes, I will be using an older bowflex, bench with the flexible arm band things, Any idea what weight I should start out? I have little upper strength at present.
Thanks for replies for any wisdom that can be offered.
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Replies
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It is possible to gain strength without actually gaining muscle mass. If you look at a lot of beginner strength programs, individuals gain strength in a fairly linear fashion for months without necessarily adding much in the way of muscle mass. This is primarily neural adaptation where your body learns to more efficiently recruit existing muscle mass.
Some muscle mass can be built in a deficit when new to training (noobie gains), and particularly if the lifter is very over fat and has a lot of excess fuel on board. These gains are relatively nominal though and short lived. The reason you can't really put on muscle mass in a calorie deficit is because being in a calorie deficit has your body in a catabolic state and gaining muscle, just like gaining fat, is an anabolic process. You can't really be anabolic and catabolic at the same time. The benefits of lifting in a deficit are namely retaining existing muscle mass, as otherwise, you lose muscle, along with fat when dieting...because of your catabolic state.
Nobody can tell you what weight to start out with...I would look to see if there's any kind of structured program for Bow Flex and run that. The weight you use should allow you to complete the prescribed sets and reps, but be challenging...it shouldn't be easy, but it also shouldn't be working to failure either.3 -
@cwolfman13
I will have to do some reading as I assumed strength went arm and arm with gaining muscle.
I really appreciate your response.0 -
In reality there are two opposing forces in action - the normal breakdown of muscle tissue and the rebuilding of your muscles.
Someone in diet and exercise equilibrium will simply be maintaining/recycling their existing muscle mass.
The primary way to lose muscle is inactivity (use it or lose it) and the primary way to gain more is to raise your exercise and activity to stimulate the need for more.
Diet supports the process as regards energy and protein (the building block of muscle).
Being in a calorie deficit is not helpful so you want that deficit to be sensible (small !) if you need to lose weight.
Anabolic and catabolic are descriptions and not modes by the way, the two opposing forces don't stop and start according to your calorie balance but diet and exercise affect the rates of the two processes. Someone in a small calorie deficit is net catabolic over the course of the day but clearly after each meal they are in an anabolic state while digesting that meal.
Keep in mind that the results a highly trained and lean individual might get in a deficit are wildly different to an under-trained and not lean individual. It's a common mistake when people discuss this issue that "if body builders can't add muscle in a deficit how can an ordinary person?" crops up. That person close to their genetic potential needs everything to be optimised to gain muscle very, very slowly. That situation doesn't translate to your ordinary Joe or Jane in the gym who are miles away from their potential and can still improve with sub-optimal combinations of exercise and diet.
Strength and muscle mass are only loosely related. Initial gains in strength should be expected by anyone starting or returning to effective strength/weight training. That's mostly the better recruitment of existing muscle fibres and stronger nervous system signalling.
BTW - the ability to gain strength and/or muscle while dieting should not influence your decision whether to train or not. Whatever results you can personally achieve are the best that you can do even if that's just retaining what you have. Not training at all while dieting will almost guarantee muscle loss as a smaller body requires less muscle to move about.
Where you start is where you are now, you need to find the level that is challenging enough to promote adaptation but not so hard that you can't recover or get enough exercise volume over the course of your training week. A couple of reps in the tank of your working sets is the roughest of rough guides.
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@sijomial Thank You, That was very helpful.
I am set at losing 1 pound a week. I have been down this road with fast losses to gain it all back + more. I would like to lose about 50 to 55 lbs, which will bring me to around 1 year for loss goal. Learning that I can eat my calories allotted + exercise calories in one of my main goals also. I have run in the past and am just starting that too, but never have done any weights. If I can just maintain or keep most of what I have that will be a good start. Adding some upper body strength is def needed.
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You can definitely add upper body strength irrespective of a calorie deficit (as long as the deficit isn't crazy excessive, anyway), and it can happen surprisingly quickly, much faster than mass gain.
Like wolfman said at first, initial strength is neuromuscular adaptation, better recruiting and using existing muscle fibers. That strength is useful, and there can be quite a lot of it, depending on the individual. For some women especially, it can be quite pronounced, because some/many of us - especially those of your (53) and my age (66) were not as much encouraged to develop physical strength earlier in life. (Certainly some were, and did. But I think it's more common in younger women - and I'm glad to see it.)
As far as gaining muscle mass in a deficit: The worst that can happen, if you do the right things to foster it, is that you'll keep more of your existing muscle tissue alongside fat loss, and that's a useful thing. As Sijomial says, many people don't realize that overweight/obese people are likely to have more muscle mass than always-thin people of the same exercise history, just from carrying our weight through the world. Why not keep it? It's useful. And you might gain some, besides.
What are the right things? Not a huge deficit, good overall nutrition (especially but not exclusively adequate protein), a good progressive strength training program faithfully performed. Even short of that, gains are possible, maybe . . . but likely to be slower, less efficient, more improbable if other sub-ideal elements conspire with reduced calories to limit gains.
As far as what weight to start out with, speaking very generally here: Start conservatively. For a while - maybe a short time - use resistance you can feel but that isn't really challenging, until you are confident that you're getting the form right, doing the movements in non-injurious ways. (Consult videos or books from people with good credentials, if you can't hire a trainer!)
Then increase to get a manageable challenge, to the point where you don't feel like you're risking injury, but you feel like the last couple of reps are a challenge and that you can complete them with good form. That's really just another way of saying "leave a couple reps in the tank". Going all the way to failure is usually not ideal.
It may be just me (as an older woman with some pre-existing joint issues and imbalances), but I prefer in most cases to increase reps and sets for a bit, before dropping back reps/sets and increasing weight/resistance. For me, that's a way to keep things challenging, but minimize injury risk. Since I de-train faster now than when I was young, the forced breaks that arise from injury are more problematic. For me, slow but safe progress is faster in practice than theoretically faster progress punctuated by strain/injury, detraining, recovery, regaining lost ground.
My personal approach is not the theoretically most optimal for increasing either strength or mass - it has more of a muscle endurance flavor sometimes, is less clearly goal-focused (in terms of standard goals). It's my priority on injury avoidance that leads me in that direction, and that may not be an issue for you, I don't know.
Wishing you excellent results!4 -
@AnnPT77
In such a short time I have been here, I appreciate all of your insight and input in so many posts. As it specifically relates to my post, I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to give some meaningful input.
I do admire the nicely sculpted arms of a fit individual. Not my goal at this time, but I sure hope that someday, when I am lean enough, to be able to develop the awesomeness of lifting.
I will definitely watch some videos for form and saw a couple posts with books recommended.
Thanks again to everyone who has responded.3 -
For that much to lose, a reasonable deficit really could be 1.5 lbs weekly.
(unless body is stressed with disease or other problems)
For the start of weight lifting, as commented, is not muscle building but rather muscle recruitment and strength gains.
You could keep the bigger still reasonable deficit at the start while you start weight lifting.
When progress almost stops, make the deficit 1 lb weekly (should change to that at 30 lbs left anyway).
At that point if your deficit is less than reasonable, meaning there are calories to spare just not used for deficit, you could switch to a more hypertrophy program focusing on gaining muscle, and that process would in essence use up rest the available deficit calories.
Say for amount to lose (30 to 15 lbs left) 500 cal deficit was reasonable for your body.
But you took only 250.
And did the right weight lifting program.
You could gain some muscle.
Would be slow and likely not noticeable as a woman, and only a 250 cal deficit could be difficult.
But in theory...
Lyle McDonald had some articles on this potential, because most studies showing inability to gain are taking rather steep deficits, the studies' focus is what could body builders max cut for show prep.
Not likely what your attempt is.
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By now, you (@heybales) know - I hope - how much I deeply respect your opinion on subjects like the ones in this thread, have learned lots from you. You know way more than I do.For that much to lose, a reasonable deficit really could be 1.5 lbs weekly.
(unless body is stressed with disease or other problems)
Even so, I'd personally feel a little more caution about 1.5 pounds a week loss in this case, without more information about OP's height, health context, and lifestyle - an amplification of the point I think you're making in mentioning "stressed with disease or other problems".
Maybe I'm too conservative, but one thing I have in the mix is having actually having been a woman around OP's age who became very active (when I was late 40s to early 50s) after some long-ish history of inactivity, while 50 or so pounds over a healthy weight.
If she is of petite stature, a 750 calorie daily deficit could be quite a lot, have impact on the desirable nutrition for best management of health risks during weight loss, even before considering protecting (maybe even growing?) muscle. She's possibly peri-menopausal or menopausal, which is no kind of bar to improving fitness or losing weight, but it is a potential stressor with some unique physical implications.
As I mentioned before, women in that demographic (close to mine) can have limited athletic history. OP says "I have run in the past and am just starting that too, but never have done any weights." So, there is new and resumed exercise in the picture as possible stressors. (Truth in advertising: I didn't even try to lose weight when first becoming active, so don't have experience with the cumulative effect of combining that with deficit.)
OP also says "I have been down this road with fast losses to gain it all back + more", which may imply some yo-yo cycle of depletion. In my demographic, that pattern is often coupled with eating strategies (in both loss and regain) that aggravate such depletion (speaking very loosely, salad-heavy/protein-sparse in loss, high-carb/high-fat/still somewhat protein-sparse in regain). That's not universal, but it's common. I'm not saying she's doing that now - doesn't sound like it - but if present as history, that can have some physical implications, I think.
Unless OP has unusual health or stress challenges, I think her current 1 pound a week goal is a good, safe starting point, with 50-55 pounds to lose. 1.5 pounds may indeed be viable for an initial period, as you suggest . . . but personally I'd want to know more before recommending it, given her goals and what she's said so far.
Like I said, maybe I'm too conservative. I did lose that fast myself at first, with 50+ pounds to lose at age 59, but starting from a different point in fitness (already quite active, didn't materially increase exercise while losing), and long past menopause onset (happened mid-40s for me, chemotherapy-induced), with no significant personal history of large losses/regain, already retired (lower life stress, maybe), etc.
Just my opinion as usual, and no objective science to support it, just personal experience.
For the start of weight lifting, as commented, is not muscle building but rather muscle recruitment and strength gains.
You could keep the bigger still reasonable deficit at the start while you start weight lifting.
When progress almost stops, make the deficit 1 lb weekly (should change to that at 30 lbs left anyway).
At that point if your deficit is less than reasonable, meaning there are calories to spare just not used for deficit, you could switch to a more hypertrophy program focusing on gaining muscle, and that process would in essence use up rest the available deficit calories.
Say for amount to lose (30 to 15 lbs left) 500 cal deficit was reasonable for your body.
But you took only 250.
And did the right weight lifting program.
You could gain some muscle.
Would be slow and likely not noticeable as a woman, and only a 250 cal deficit could be difficult.
But in theory...
Lyle McDonald had some articles on this potential, because most studies showing inability to gain are taking rather steep deficits, the studies' focus is what could body builders max cut for show prep.
Not likely what your attempt is.
Not questioning any of this section, not even a little. Just talking about some maybe-relevant things when it comes to applying it in this thread's specific kind of context. 🤷♀️
OP sounds smart, level-headed: I'm sure she can test-drive strategies, figure this out for her n=1. 🙂2 -
I kneel, stand, or bow before experience - whichever the local culture expects. (hmmm, the NorthEast?)
So true that MFP may not even allow a true 750 deficit before cutoff anyway.
And I thought it was also a very level headed comment about eating back exercise calories. OP is on a good path.1 -
@heybales & @AnnPT77 Please see below.
I am a 5'5" female current weight 199.5 lbs. Plenty of fat to lose. (Not that it makes difference, my body type is to gain it evenly everywhere. I doubt anyone would actually guess my weight because of the distribution.) I have set my target at 150lbs, but more realistically would like to be around 145 to 143. No health issues other than BP is creeping and cholesterol is creeping. Still in the upper healthy range but creeping up every year. I have no physical disabilities and only the "typical" body aches from sitting to long and being too overweight.
My activity level has been walking mostly 1 mile upwards 3 miles 3 to 4 times a week. Running recently started 3xweekly for last 3 weeks otherwise pretty much nonexistent for past 10 yrs (used to run 6 to 7 miles regularly). I have a mostly desk job with some outside field work (inspection type work). Desk 95% of the time so plenty of sitting.
I have my food set at 1 pound loss which MFP has given 1400 calories + any exercise calories. My exercise calories currently are approx 300 on days of run & walk (c25k) otherwise slightly over 100 on just walk days mostly 1 mile. My typical daily calories consumption range from mid 1200+ to upper 1300+. I am not purposefully eating under the allotted calories, just have not needed the extra calories at this point. I am satisfied. As my exercise ramps up, I intend to eat at least half. I have read that the exercise estimates are off quite a bit.
In the past, I have lost weight faster in the 1000 to 1200 calorie range only to have binge days (and self-loathing and eventually give up and never complete maintenance.) I realize this is new yet, but I have not had any "binge days". As I get much more active, I am sure I will need to increase the calorie intake, but at this point if I stick with the plan and lose 1 pound a week, or slightly more I am ok with that. I just want to make sure I am eating for sustainability. I am trying to hit at least 70 grams of protein which has been set by MFP. As I get more active, I will increase that number too.
I just watched some videos on for upper strength exercise for bowflex and intend to start tonight.
Everyone here is so awesome and I appreciate all of the feedback. If my above thoughts need some tweaking from the "experts" please feel free to post your opinions and advise. THIS IS VERY WELCOME and MUCH APPRECIATED.1 -
fatty2begone wrote: »@heybales & @AnnPT77 Please see below.
I am a 5'5" female current weight 199.5 lbs. Plenty of fat to lose. (Not that it makes difference, my body type is to gain it evenly everywhere. I doubt anyone would actually guess my weight because of the distribution.) I have set my target at 150lbs, but more realistically would like to be around 145 to 143. No health issues other than BP is creeping and cholesterol is creeping. Still in the upper healthy range but creeping up every year. I have no physical disabilities and only the "typical" body aches from sitting to long and being too overweight.
My activity level has been walking mostly 1 mile upwards 3 miles 3 to 4 times a week. Running recently started 3xweekly for last 3 weeks otherwise pretty much nonexistent for past 10 yrs (used to run 6 to 7 miles regularly). I have a mostly desk job with some outside field work (inspection type work). Desk 95% of the time so plenty of sitting.
I have my food set at 1 pound loss which MFP has given 1400 calories + any exercise calories. My exercise calories currently are approx 300 on days of run & walk (c25k) otherwise slightly over 100 on just walk days mostly 1 mile. My typical daily calories consumption range from mid 1200+ to upper 1300+. I am not purposefully eating under the allotted calories, just have not needed the extra calories at this point. I am satisfied. As my exercise ramps up, I intend to eat at least half. I have read that the exercise estimates are off quite a bit.
In the past, I have lost weight faster in the 1000 to 1200 calorie range only to have binge days (and self-loathing and eventually give up and never complete maintenance.) I realize this is new yet, but I have not had any "binge days". As I get much more active, I am sure I will need to increase the calorie intake, but at this point if I stick with the plan and lose 1 pound a week, or slightly more I am ok with that. I just want to make sure I am eating for sustainability. I am trying to hit at least 70 grams of protein which has been set by MFP. As I get more active, I will increase that number too.
I just watched some videos on for upper strength exercise for bowflex and intend to start tonight.
Everyone here is so awesome and I appreciate all of the feedback. If my above thoughts need some tweaking from the "experts" please feel free to post your opinions and advise. THIS IS VERY WELCOME and MUCH APPRECIATED.
Oddly enough, I'm also 5'5". As background, I started losing weight in 2015 at 183, which is just over the line into class 1 obese BMI for that height. (I started getting very active in around 2003, weighing somewhere in 180s/190s, don't recall, didn't record then.)
These days, I weigh in the mid-120s pounds, 126-point-something this morning. I'm not urging that weight range on you: I have narrow hips, kind of a boyish build, and am completely flat chested (post-bilateral mastectomies, no reconstruction). That makes mid-120s (IMO) a reasonable weight for me.
I think your plans are reasonable. Given your calorie goal now, I think whacking off another 250 calories to target 1.5 pounds a week could be extreme - I'd say at least see how the 500 calorie deficit goes for a while, first, especially with a history of over-restricting with negative consequences in the past. That's just an opinion, though.
Also: Watch what happens over the first month or so (whole menstrual cycles, if that still applies). MFP's giving you a goal based on population averages, and you may or may not be average, though most people are close. (I lost much faster than targeted at MFP's estimate, which is somewhat rare . . . but it was Not A Good Thing.)
For that and other reasons, I'd encourage you to be quite cautious about eating materially under goal calories. Hunger may not be a good guide. When I was initially under-eating, I felt energetic and not hungry until I hit a wall, very suddenly. Though I corrected as soon as I realized, I got weak and fatigued, took multiple weeks to recover back to normal. No one needs that.
I kind of disagree that MFP's exercise estimates are necessarily off by a lot. They're likely to be a bit high for many things (because of a structural problem in how MFP does the math), but more so for long-duration, low burn-per-minute things. I hope you realize you can override MFP's calorie number, if you have a better estimate? This is a better source for walk/run:
https://exrx.net/Calculators/WalkRunMETs
Select "net" in the "energy" box.
IMO, MFP's estimate for strength training calories ("strength training" entry in the "cardiovascular" section) is among the more conservative options, less likely to be an overestimate than a pure heart-rate monitor estimate. (Some of the more general fitness trackers now use something similar to MFP's method now, rather than the maybe-misleading heart rate estimating approach.)
If you use a good brand/model fitness tracker, synch it to MFP, those calorie adjustments are more likely to be good than misleading for most people, IMO. It's still an estimate, but very personalized. The adjustments, speaking generically, adjust not only for exercise, but also cases where daily life burns more than the MFP activity level setting would suggest. (It will also deal with "burns less" if negative adjustments are enabled in MFP.)
Anything heybales says about calorie estimates is more expertise-based than anything I say, though, hands down.
I lost most of my weight at 1400-1600 plus all carefully estimated exercise calories (so around 1600-2000 calories gross intake most days), but as I mentioned, I'm mysteriously a good li'l ol' calorie burner for my demographic. Maintenance calories for me now are 2000-2200-ish, before exercise, though I eat 1850+exercise most days to calorie bank for occasional indulgences.
Personally, I'm a subscriber to the idea of a protein minimum around 0.6-0.8g per pound of healthy goal weight during weight loss (which is close to 0.8-1g per pound of lean body mass for quite a few people, but most of us don't have a good LBM estimate - the BIA scales aren't good estimates). Protein is particularly important with strength/muscle-mass or performance goals alongside fat loss, or a context of athletic activity generally.
This is an evidence-based source for protein needs estimates:
https://examine.com/nutrition/protein-intake-calculator/
. . . with explanations/sources for their reasoning here:
https://examine.com/guides/protein-intake/
(I'm not affiliated with either of the sites I linked, except as a happy consumer of their info.)
That's all I've got, for this particular advice/opinion dump . . . and it's worth every penny you paid for it. 😉😆
I think you're on a good road for success. Wishing you happy progress!1 -
I kneel, stand, or bow before experience - whichever the local culture expects. (hmmm, the NorthEast?)
So true that MFP may not even allow a true 750 deficit before cutoff anyway.
And I thought it was also a very level headed comment about eating back exercise calories. OP is on a good path.
Whose local culture?
FWIW: I'm in the upper Midwest, USA, raised in a stoic, low-emotion Scandinavian-influenced subculture. A slight (few degree) quick tilt of the head, with little facial expression, would be quite a strong reaction to anything, TBH. 😉😆
I gotta go work out now, before I get myself in trouble here.0 -
"I have read that the exercise estimates are off quite a bit."
Hmmm - you need to be a bit cautious about that comment. It's more like group think than a universal reality.
A - many people don't actually have better or verified estimates for their exercise.
B - there is often an unjustified guilt about exercise calories despite all sensible methods of calorie counting taking them into account. Often using far less granular methods the MyFitnessPal, or sometimes methods inappropriate to exercise type.
C - exercise calories get far too much of the blame for people's results not meeting expectations, unless you are doing a very serious volume of exercise a deviation in small numbers (exercise) vs large numbers (food) intake has limited power to derail your progress.
D - it really depends on which handful of exercises an individual picks from a database of hundreds. e.g. I mainly use cycling and strength training estimates. From using far better methods than the database cycling speed ranges I know for me and my typical cycling the estimates are pretty awful unless I'm riding offroad or riding serious hills. However, the strength training entry is a very modest amount.
E - there is a universal problem in that the database has been badly coded and gives gross rather than net calorie estimates. But that's not a percentage despite the frequently parotted suggestion to eat back 50%. That gross vs. net issue becomes more significant for long duration exercise but is trivial for short durations.
F - if you have better methods you can overwrite the database calorie suggestion. You might like the running calculator suggested above for example.
PS - 70g of protein is a very modest goal for someone losing weight and exercising. It's more like a minimum to avoid nutritional deficiency rather than getting anywhere close to optimal. I'd suggest more like 110g and that would be far easier to achieve on a bigger calorie allowance given by selecting a steady rate of loss and eating back exercise calories.1 -
A Million Thanks to all who commented. I feel like I have very good advice (free as it is ). I will give a couple weeks so how things are going and adjust as needed. I am going to up my protein uptake and shoot for the moon.
Have a great evening to all.2 -
@AnnPT77 BTW I am a Midwest girl also. From your "Scandinavian-influenced subculture" comment can I guess Northern Wisconsin or Michigan perhaps?
I am from Northern Wisconsin, but an UPer at heart! Love the UP and all the splendor it has to offer.0 -
fatty2begone wrote: »@AnnPT77 BTW I am a Midwest girl also. From your "Scandinavian-influenced subculture" comment can I guess Northern Wisconsin or Michigan perhaps?
I am from Northern Wisconsin, but an UPer at heart! Love the UP and all the splendor it has to offer.
Palm of the MI mitten is where I live now, grew up a little more North and East, in a woods North of Grand Rapids. I was closest to my paternal relatives (because my mom was an only child); they got their start in Ironwood, MI, near the Wisconsin side of the UP . . . so good guess.🙂0
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