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Advice on sets/reps

Labouffecestbon

Hi everyone!

So today I decided to try 4x6 (4 sets, 6 reps) for the major muscle groups. Had to up the weights to match difficulty (so it would be difficult to do 6 reps/set). It felt very challenging as I was doing it, as if I couldn't do any more. However, when I was totally done with the workout, I didn't feel "pain". You know, like you've just gone through hell's workout. I thought that perhaps I didn't push myself hard enough. Went back and tried lifting and couldn't even do 3 reps on the first set of deadlifts. Can muscles be tired yet you don't feel it? I'm not sure how I feel about it yet (the 4x6). I'm used to doing more reps (about 12) with sets (3) with (of course) lighter weights. Considering that I do my workouts with dumbbells (no barbell), I'm not sure which method will fit me better... Any thoughts?

Replies

heybales

Muscles can be tired for a hard workout, but seem to operate fine for normal activity.
Like you get done with hard workout, and think you'll go run for a bit because you are walking around so normal. First couple strides you realize that ain't going to work well because you are running funny now.

It may also point out the weak link in a compound lift.

Like couldn't do more dead's because of the grip, or really the legs?

You are putting the muscles under tension for less time (36 reps vs 24 reps), but if 3 x weekly for that, not bad still.

Just depends if you have the time to hit desired lifts and aren't lacking time for some other important ones.
4 x 6 will probably be better for dumbbells until they don't get heavy enough.

Labouffecestbon

Muscles can be tired for a hard workout, but seem to operate fine for normal activity.
Like you get done with hard workout, and think you'll go run for a bit because you are walking around so normal. First couple strides you realize that ain't going to work well because you are running funny now.

It may also point out the weak link in a compound lift.

Like couldn't do more dead's because of the grip, or really the legs?

You are putting the muscles under tension for less time (36 reps vs 24 reps), but if 3 x weekly for that, not bad still.

Just depends if you have the time to hit desired lifts and aren't lacking time for some other important ones.
4 x 6 will probably be better for dumbbells until they don't get heavy enough.

Thanks for the feedback!

Hum you bring up an interesting point regarding the weak link. I didn't think about that. I'll have to say that it's more the legs. Not sure as I didn't pay attention.

I aim to do full body 3x a week. So you'd say 4x6 will work better?

You said "Just depends if you have the time to hit desired lifts and aren't lacking time for some other important ones." What do you mean? I work out at home so I can put aside some time to do the workouts even if they are longer.

Hum I hope I don't run out soon because my adjustable dumbbells are up to 50 lbs/hand! :-/

heybales

Just depends on what your purpose of.

This speaks of higher volume with short rests best for HGH release.
But it also speaks of reps to hit 30 sec under tension at max weight you can do, with long recovery, to hit it hard again, is useful for fat loss post workout.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Myths.html#anchor9628175

Higher volume weight training (i.e. 3 sets versus 1 set of each exercise) with short rest periods of approximately 1 minutes can stimulate a greater acute growth hormone release (Kraemer 1991, 1993; Mulligan 1996). Growth hormone is lipolytic in adults. It is hypothesized that maximal effort is necessary for optimizing exercise induced secretion of growth hormone. Growth hormone release is related to the magnitude of exertion (Pyka 1992) and is attenuated with greater lactic acidosis (Gordon 1994).

Intense weight training utilizing multiple large muscles with longer rest between sets may also accentuate body lipid deficit by increasing post training epinephrine. Intramuscular triacylgycerol is thought to be an important energy substrate following repeated 30 second maximal exercise with 4 minute recovery intervals (McCartney 1996, Tremblay 1994). Rest periods lasting approximately 4 minutes between maximal exercise exercise of very short duration is required for almost complete creatine phosphate recovery required for repeated maximal bouts (McCartney 1986). Insufficient recovery may compromise the intensity of the exercise and in turn, possibly decrease intramuscular triacylgycerol utilization following anaerobic exercise with significantly shorter rest periods.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Guidelines.html

Training frequency
2-3 days per week for novice and intermediate training
4-5 days per week for advanced training.
Novice training
8-12 repetition maximum (RM)
Intermediate to advanced training
1-12 RM in periodized fashion
eventual emphasis on heavy loading (1-6 RM)
at least 3-min rest periods between sets
moderate contraction velocity
1-2 s concentric, 1-2 s eccentric
Lever Power Jammer

Hypertrophy training
1-12 RM in periodized fashion
emphasis on the 6-12 RM zone
1- to 2-min rest periods between sets
moderate contraction velocity
higher volume, multiple-set programs
Power training
two general loading strategies
strength training
use of light loads
30-60% of 1 RM
fast contraction velocity
2-3 min of rest between sets for multiple sets per exercise
emphasize multiple-joint exercises
especially those involving the total body
Local muscular endurance training
light to moderate loads
40-60% of 1 RM
high repetitions (> 15)
short rest periods (< 90 s)

Labouffecestbon

Wow!! Thank you so much for all the information!

These parts also stood out to me:
"If an aerobic exercise and nutrition program is sufficient enough to lose fat, a moderate repetition range with a progressively heavier weight will accelerate fat loss with a toning effect."

I think that applies to me... (I hope so, as I also do moderate cardio 2-3 times/week and aim for adequate nutrition)

At some point I was even doing higher reps (15-20) thinking that was better for fat loss. I actually prefer the feeling I get from lifting heavier weights with moderate repetitions (8-12) instead of going light for higher reps. Since I'm a novice, I'll stick to 3x full body work, 3 sets, 8-12 reps, going progressively heavier on the weights. If I understand well, for fat loss, this is a good place to start, right?

Pardon my ignorance, but what does all this mean?
"at least 3-min rest periods between sets
moderate contraction velocity
1-2 s concentric, 1-2 s eccentric
Lever Power Jammer"

Would this apply to me on my program above? (3, 8-12)

Labouffecestbon

Bumpity bump

ninerbuff

Pardon my ignorance, but what does all this mean?
"at least 3-min rest periods between sets

This is just recovery between sets.

moderate contraction velocity

Speed of the repetitions for muscle contraction

1-2 s concentric

This is the "positive" movement of any lift. EX. on a bicep curl, it's the motion of curling the weight up . One to two seconds to complete rep.

1-2 s eccentric

This is the "negative" movement of any lift. On the bicep curl, this is the motion of lowering the weight to start. One to two seconds to complete rep.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

heybales

Wow!! Thank you so much for all the information!

These parts also stood out to me:
"If an aerobic exercise and nutrition program is sufficient enough to lose fat, a moderate repetition range with a progressively heavier weight will accelerate fat loss with a toning effect."

I think that applies to me... (I hope so, as I also do moderate cardio 2-3 times/week and aim for adequate nutrition)

At some point I was even doing higher reps (15-20) thinking that was better for fat loss. I actually prefer the feeling I get from lifting heavier weights with moderate repetitions (8-12) instead of going light for higher reps. Since I'm a novice, I'll stick to 3x full body work, 3 sets, 8-12 reps, going progressively heavier on the weights. If I understand well, for fat loss, this is a good place to start, right?

Pardon my ignorance, but what does all this mean?
"at least 3-min rest periods between sets
moderate contraction velocity
1-2 s concentric, 1-2 s eccentric
Lever Power Jammer"

Would this apply to me on my program above? (3, 8-12)

Actually take a look at the link to the page, which has correct formatting.
You grabbed the section for Intermediate to Advanced training, which after some years you may be.

There's even low-volume training, to allow more time for isolation exercises. Highlights here, full article at link.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/LowVolumeTraining.html

Many scientific studies demonstrate one set is almost effective as multiple sets, if not just as effective in strength and muscle hypertrophy (Starkey, Pollock, et. al. 1996). These studies have been criticized for using untrained subjects. Hass et. al. (2000) compared the effects of one set verses three sets in experienced recreational weightlifters. Both groups significantly improved muscular fitness and body composition during the 13 week study. Interestingly, no significant differences were found between groups for any of the test variables, including muscular strength, muscular endurance, and body composition.

If an individual is accustomed to a high-volume program it may be very difficult psychologically to perform only a warm-up set and one workout set. It may take months until the veteran is used to the low-volume, progressively-intense training. The individual who is used to performing multiple sets and many exercises for each muscle group is initially unable to perform a workout set at a great intensity. They have taught themselves, almost unconsciously, to hold back since they are used to performing many exercises and sets. It may require months to teach the body to push itself more intensely.

Labouffecestbon

Pardon my ignorance, but what does all this mean?
"at least 3-min rest periods between sets

This is just recovery between sets.

moderate contraction velocity

Speed of the repetitions for muscle contraction

1-2 s concentric

This is the "positive" movement of any lift. EX. on a bicep curl, it's the motion of curling the weight up . One to two seconds to complete rep.

1-2 s eccentric

This is the "negative" movement of any lift. On the bicep curl, this is the motion of lowering the weight to start. One to two seconds to complete rep.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Thank you!

Labouffecestbon

Actually take a look at the link to the page, which has correct formatting.
You grabbed the section for Intermediate to Advanced training, which after some years you may be.

There's even low-volume training, to allow more time for isolation exercises. Highlights here, full article at link.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/LowVolumeTraining.html

Many scientific studies demonstrate one set is almost effective as multiple sets, if not just as effective in strength and muscle hypertrophy (Starkey, Pollock, et. al. 1996). These studies have been criticized for using untrained subjects. Hass et. al. (2000) compared the effects of one set verses three sets in experienced recreational weightlifters. Both groups significantly improved muscular fitness and body composition during the 13 week study. Interestingly, no significant differences were found between groups for any of the test variables, including muscular strength, muscular endurance, and body composition.

If an individual is accustomed to a high-volume program it may be very difficult psychologically to perform only a warm-up set and one workout set. It may take months until the veteran is used to the low-volume, progressively-intense training. The individual who is used to performing multiple sets and many exercises for each muscle group is initially unable to perform a workout set at a great intensity. They have taught themselves, almost unconsciously, to hold back since they are used to performing many exercises and sets. It may require months to teach the body to push itself more intensely.

I did take a look at the link to the page and even read more pages once on the site. I'm actually considering giving a shot to one of their full body workout templates. Perhaps there's been an overload of info and I've come out confused.

I wasn't sure I had understood the article correctly because it was suggesting one workout set of 8-10 exercises, 8-12 reps, 2-3 days/week (or two sets including the warm-up set). ONE actual workout set? I've never heard that before. That's interesting.

You said, "You grabbed the section for Intermediate to Advanced training, which after some years you may be." And I'm thinking, YEARS?? I've been lifting for quite a while, though I'm not sure it counts because I was only using 5-8 lb dumbbells and body weight at the time. I've only recently lifted heavier (for me) because I got adjustable dumbbells. Still a novice? I don't mind being one (and go from there). Just curious.

Would this be a good place to start?
"For those who are used to a high-volume program, an intermediate-volume training prescription may be suggested. This involves two workout sets performed after a warm-up set. The workout weight should be increased 5 to 10 % if 12 reps (or the upper repetition range) is performed. The two workout sets may be performed with the same weight (straight sets) or the second workout set may be 5% greater than the resistance used on the first workout set (outlined below), independent of the progress weight.

Warm-up set A: 50% of workout weight (12-15 reps)
Workout set 1: Recorded weight (8-12 reps)
If 12 reps, increase workout weight 5-10% next workout
Workout set 2: Recorded weight + 5%"

heybales

I was only referring to the section you copied about being specific with con/ecc contractions and timing of movements.

Yes, novice is actually a year of lifting heavy or more time actually.

Those templates are great things, especially since you can then go through and pick the dumbbell workout to hit the muscle suggested.

Yep, one workout set, I've done that for various times through workout time, like when that template gets long and pressed for time.
There is other place on the site with some studies showing the extra sets only improve things like 5%, but the chance for injury or overtraining increases too, so more risky for just a possible 5% improvement.
I only do warmup and 1 workout set, you just increase weight until you fail there on last rep. I've also been doing 15 reps for endurance encouragement, but I'll get back down to more normal 8-12 probably.

You can do the 3 x 8-12 still if you have the time. But if you'd like to put in more isolation lifts and the compounds are taking too much time, then 1 workout set can work fine.

That intermediate method is for someone doing high volume for years and have to mentally get over how they handle it.
Since you don't have a routine that ingrained, you wouldn't have to do that, straight to 1 workout set. Increase weight by 10 lbs, and do as many reps as you can after the warmup set at 50% current weight.
If 10 lbs wasn't enough and you reached like 20 reps, then you know you can probably add another 10 lbs, or 5. You will have to test to see what weight is correct. When I went from SL5 x 5 to 1 x 15, I had to lower weight by 15-20 lbs on the big muscles like squat and dead, 5-10 lbs on bench or OHP. So just depends.

First time sore, you realize it does work just as well, and doing the heavier weight without holding back, because you have no other sets save yourself for, feels great too.

Labouffecestbon

It all makes so much sense now!

I appreciate the time you've taken to slice down everything. It can all be so confusing!

I was worried that the one workout set wouldn't be enough, but I understand that it should be since I wouldn't be holding back. This is a totally new concept for me, so I'm a bit skeptical. I'll give this (warm-up set + one workout set) a shot.

There is other place on the site with some studies showing the extra sets only improve things like 5%, but the chance for injury or overtraining increases too, so more risky for just a possible 5% improvement.

I did read that! That's one of the reasons I want to give this a shot.

When you do the one workout set, do you mix it up with others? (for ex, one day you do 1x12-15, another day you do 3x8-12...) Or do you stick to one workout set for a period of time (say, a month)? I'd like to stick to 1x8-12 for a month and watch for improvement in performance (even though, at a deficit, it won't be my best work).

...If 10 lbs wasn't enough and you reached like 20 reps, then you know you can probably add another 10 lbs, or 5.

I'll do the add the next time I do that same exercise, right? And the day I fail at the last rep, I know I should stay at that weight for a while until I become strong enough to be able to push through?

heybales

It is for sure a hard mentality, to truly give it your all for that one set. But really, when you do that one workout set, even if you waited another 3 min, you'd be hard pressed to get probably a good 3-4 more reps out of it, and possibly bad form. But you'll need some of that strength for other lifts using some of those same muscles.

When I switch to the 1 warmup and 1 workout set, it's usually because I'm doing a full body workout and have to finish in 1 hr. So I don't switch it up except that move from 8-12 reps up to 15 if endurance event training.

I'd say stick with it probably more than a month, like at least 6 weeks, because it could take a couple weeks to hone in on the weight and get the feeling for giving it your all for that set. Kind of like hill sprints or hard intervals, you can't think of the next one, you give it your all for the current one, you count on the recovery level to allow ability to hit it hard again, though it can't be the exact same high level.

Correct on adding weight the next time, to reduce the reps to desired zone. That's what's nice with the 8 - 12 range, when you get up to 12, usually 5 lbs more will bring you back down to 8. Easy math, easy movement.

My last increase on bench press, I was using bench with safety hooks, and missed on my second to last rep. Took a few breaths, then few more, got under it properly, and finished the reps. Next week failed the last rep. Same thing after few breaths. 3rd week hit it, barely. Then a month off for event training. But after a month came back and did same weight. Hurt like the ****ens for almost a week, worst DOMS I can recall almost for so many muscles, but worked.

linsey0689

I think your muscles can be tired but not sore. I someone what like the idea of less reps and more sets, currently I don't do that but I would like to give it a try. I think that way you would get just as much benefit or more because you are pushing yourself more.

heybales

I think your muscles can be tired but not sore. I someone what like the idea of less reps and more sets, currently I don't do that but I would like to give it a try. I think that way you would get just as much benefit or more because you are pushing yourself more.

You might want to read the links above, studies say otherwise. Both beginning lifters and experienced.

Very true you can have tired muscles that aren't sore.
That is exactly what happens if you do cardio at too intense a level the day before lifting, not likely sore, but tired muscles and can't lift as heavy. And it's only by putting a heavy load on the muscles that you obtain the results of improvement.

Labouffecestbon

It is for sure a hard mentality, to truly give it your all for that one set. But really, when you do that one workout set, even if you waited another 3 min, you'd be hard pressed to get probably a good 3-4 more reps out of it, and possibly bad form. But you'll need some of that strength for other lifts using some of those same muscles.

When I switch to the 1 warmup and 1 workout set, it's usually because I'm doing a full body workout and have to finish in 1 hr. So I don't switch it up except that move from 8-12 reps up to 15 if endurance event training.

I'd say stick with it probably more than a month, like at least 6 weeks, because it could take a couple weeks to hone in on the weight and get the feeling for giving it your all for that set. Kind of like hill sprints or hard intervals, you can't think of the next one, you give it your all for the current one, you count on the recovery level to allow ability to hit it hard again, though it can't be the exact same high level.

Correct on adding weight the next time, to reduce the reps to desired zone. That's what's nice with the 8 - 12 range, when you get up to 12, usually 5 lbs more will bring you back down to 8. Easy math, easy movement.

My last increase on bench press, I was using bench with safety hooks, and missed on my second to last rep. Took a few breaths, then few more, got under it properly, and finished the reps. Next week failed the last rep. Same thing after few breaths. 3rd week hit it, barely. Then a month off for event training. But after a month came back and did same weight. Hurt like the ****ens for almost a week, worst DOMS I can recall almost for so many muscles, but worked.

Perfect! I'll give it a shot for at least 6 weeks. It sounds like I would get a good workout out of a session!