Lean Bulking BMR or TDEE??

A_ARON78

So I decided to lean bulk and did some research on how to do so. A lot of people on the internet talk about basing your diet off your TDEE, if that’s the case then I’m eating around 3,500 calories for a “lean bulk”. So I went with this information to 2 different trainers and one agreed I should be eating 3,500 calories but the other said that’s way to much for me, and that I should base my diet on my BMR which is 1935, my lean body mass was 135lbs and my fat mass is at 61.9lbs. He told me to eat 2,235 calories for 1 month and that should be enough for me to see weight gain. Cardio and Lifting Monday-Friday and cardio over the weekend. So I'm stuck between deciding how I should go on about my diet, both these trainers back up their info so well.

sijomial

You have to eat over your total calorie needs (TDEE) to be in a surplus to bulk/gain weight.

Trainer #2 is a dummy if he thinks you should work off BMR (your calorie needs in a fasted state and at total rest). Adding 300cals would suggest the trainer thinks doing your daily activity, exercise and processing your food is somewhere well below 300cals - that's crazy.

e.g.
My estimated BMR is 1552
A day without purposeful exercise but active lifestyle my calorie needs are c. 2500 (to gain weight I would have to eat over 2500). That's almost 1000 cals on top of BMR already.
Today with a lot of exercise my TDEE is 3866 - that's just maintaining my weight.

cwolfman13

Your BMR is the number of calories you burn merely existing and nothing else. Your TDEE is your total daily calorie needs to maintain weight...it is your BMR + everything else you do in a day...to bulk you have to be in a calorie surplus...ie eating more calories than your total daily needs to maintain.

I'm assuming you are male...on average, an adult male needs anywhere from 2400-2600 calories per day to maintain, and that is usually without any purposeful exercise...just being alive and going about your day to day hum drum. For reference I eat anywhere from 2300-2500 calories per day and lose about 1 Lb per week...I don't know of any male that will bulk on 2200 calories.

I would ask how you're determining your TDEE though. Are you very active? Active job? Lots of exercise?

Retroguy2000

Both numbers in the OP seem off to me.

Trainer #2 should have been referencing a surplus to TDEE, not to BMR. Assuming that's what they meant, add about 10% to TDEE. It sounds like they're suggesting +300 for a surplus which seems fine. That might put you at around 2,500 not including additional workout calories you should eat back, so maybe 2,800 - 3,000 target?

Trainer #1 at 3,500 sounds way too high, and sounds like they just picked a generic number not taking into account your specific situation. A TDEE calculator says your maintenance might be around 2,200? I seriously doubt you're doing 1,000 calories from exercise 7 days a week.

A_ARON78

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cwolfman13 wrote: »

Your BMR is the number of calories you burn merely existing and nothing else. Your TDEE is your total daily calorie needs to maintain weight...it is your BMR + everything else you do in a day...to bulk you have to be in a calorie surplus...ie eating more calories than your total daily needs to maintain.

I'm assuming you are male...on average, an adult male needs anywhere from 2400-2600 calories per day to maintain, and that is usually without any purposeful exercise...just being alive and going about your day to day hum drum. For reference I eat anywhere from 2300-2500 calories per day and lose about 1 Lb per week...I don't know of any male that will bulk on 2200 calories.

I would ask how you're determining your TDEE though. Are you very active? Active job? Lots of exercise?

My TDEE is 3,300, I multiplied my BMR (1913) by 1.725 ( Workout 6-7 times a week with cardio ). 3500 is the amount I should eat if I want to bulk, 200 calorie increase, for now. I brought this information to Trainer #2 and he told me that 3,500 is to much for me. He said I should not be eating that much protein (200G) if my lean body mass is only at 135 Lb.( I weigh 200 Lb ) “Your small, you’ll just be pissing out all that protein”. So he then worked something out and set me at 2,235 Calories (162 P 250 C 65 F ) < Protein, Carbs, Fats. That compared to my other numbers which where set at 3500 (200 P 500 C 77F)
So I’m debating which is the right path to take, 2,235 or 3,500 for lean bulking.

Retroguy2000

Your body fat is 31%, and you still want to add weight?

How did you arrive at that TDEE estimate? Have you been tracking your daily calories and weight for a while? How many calories per day do you think you are burning from exercise? Because again, 1000 calories from exercise seems like a really generous estimate.

If your TDEE estimate is accurate, then add 10% to that if you still want to gain. It's obvious the 2235 suggestion is far too low, and the 3500 suggestion is imo probably too high. But it depends what your actual TDEE is.

200g protein is a generous amount. Could you get the same results with 180g? Probably, but 200g is fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pok0Jg2JAkE

sijomial

It seems like you want to use the TDEE method rather than how MyFitnessPal accounts for daily activity and exercise separately.

Have a go at this well respected TDEE calculator to see its estimate - https://www.sailrabbit.com/bmr/

If your TDEE is 3,300 then Trainer #2 is giving you numbers for a fast cut and not a bulk!
Trainer #1 is giving you numbers for a lean bulk with the huge caveat you are working with estimates which you will have to trial.

I do share @Retroguy2000 concern that if your body fat really is that high bulking probably isn't a good choice unless only size and strength is important to you and you aren't concerned about body composition.
Again the estimate caveat - how did you come by that fat mass estimate and do you think visually it is a reasonable estimate?
https://www.builtlean.com/body-fat-percentage-men-women/
These picures and descriptions give a rough idea of what 30% or 35% body fat might look like.

200g of protein is fine, if your body comp is accurate then less is also fine and BTW this comment reveals total ignorance of the part of the trainer who said it “Your small, you’ll just be pissing out all that protein”. That's not how it works! There are limits on using protein for muscle protein synthesis but excess is simply used for fuel.

JBanx256

A_ARON78 wrote: »

My TDEE is 3,300, I multiplied my BMR (1913) by 1.725 ( Workout 6-7 times a week with cardio ). 3500 is the amount I should eat if I want to bulk, 200 calorie increase, for now. I brought this information to Trainer #2 and he told me that 3,500 is to much for me. He said I should not be eating that much protein (200G) if my lean body mass is only at 135 Lb.( I weigh 200 Lb ) “Your small, you’ll just be pissing out all that protein”. So he then worked something out and set me at 2,235 Calories (162 P 250 C 65 F ) < Protein, Carbs, Fats. That compared to my other numbers which where set at 3500 (200 P 500 C 77F)
So I’m debating which is the right path to take, 2,235 or 3,500 for lean bulking.

I think you need to go ahead and just quit calling "trainer #2" a trainer at all. If your intent is to BULK, why would he recommend you eat BELOW your TDEE? His comment to you about protein consumption is also completely ignorant. Do you realistically NEED 200g of protein per day? Nah. But, "derp derp, you're just gonna piss it all out"? Clown.

IF your TDEE is in fact 3300, then his recommended 2235 will have you losing weight, and PDQ too.

That said, you mentioned you're at 31% bodyfat. Where did you get that number? This is just my opinion and obviously you can do what you want with your body, but if my bodyfat were anywhere near 31%, I would not even consider bulking (and that's speaking as a female, with higher safe/essential levels of bodyfat from the get-go).

A_ARON78

JBanx256 wrote: »

A_ARON78 wrote: »

My TDEE is 3,300, I multiplied my BMR (1913) by 1.725 ( Workout 6-7 times a week with cardio ). 3500 is the amount I should eat if I want to bulk, 200 calorie increase, for now. I brought this information to Trainer #2 and he told me that 3,500 is to much for me. He said I should not be eating that much protein (200G) if my lean body mass is only at 135 Lb.( I weigh 200 Lb ) “Your small, you’ll just be pissing out all that protein”. So he then worked something out and set me at 2,235 Calories (162 P 250 C 65 F ) < Protein, Carbs, Fats. That compared to my other numbers which where set at 3500 (200 P 500 C 77F)
So I’m debating which is the right path to take, 2,235 or 3,500 for lean bulking.

I think you need to go ahead and just quit calling "trainer #2" a trainer at all. If your intent is to BULK, why would he recommend you eat BELOW your TDEE? His comment to you about protein consumption is also completely ignorant. Do you realistically NEED 200g of protein per day? Nah. But, "derp derp, you're just gonna piss it all out"? Clown.

IF your TDEE is in fact 3300, then his recommended 2235 will have you losing weight, and PDQ too.

That said, you mentioned you're at 31% bodyfat. Where did you get that number? This is just my opinion and obviously you can do what you want with your body, but if my bodyfat were anywhere near 31%, I would not even consider bulking (and that's speaking as a female, with higher safe/essential levels of bodyfat from the get-go).

I had a FIT3D InBody Scan, that’s how I got the body fat percentage. And after reading the comments, everyone has actually pointed out that bulking is not the best thing for me if my body fat is that high. I honestly did not really think about that, my mentality going into this was. “I’m gonna bulk up, get more muscle mass then cut, since more muscle facilitates fat loss”. But I think now it would be a better idea to instead cut some fat then bulk. I’m really new to this so I’m all over the place trying to figure out what to do.

JBanx256

A_ARON78 wrote: »

I had a FIT3D InBody Scan, that’s how I got the body fat percentage. And after reading the comments, everyone has actually pointed out that bulking is not the best thing for me if my body fat is that high. I honestly did not really think about that, my mentality going into this was. “I’m gonna bulk up, get more muscle mass then cut, since more muscle facilitates fat loss”. But I think now it would be a better idea to instead cut some fat then bulk. I’m really new to this so I’m all over the place trying to figure out what to do.

Gotcha, that makes sense. For what it's worth though, take the InBody results with a (LARGE!) grain of salt, as they aren't necessarily very accurate. If you use them consistently over time, under the same conditions, you can at least look at relative changes as a way of measuring your progress.

And hey, everyone starts somewhere

cwolfman13

A_ARON78 wrote: »

JBanx256 wrote: »

A_ARON78 wrote: »

My TDEE is 3,300, I multiplied my BMR (1913) by 1.725 ( Workout 6-7 times a week with cardio ). 3500 is the amount I should eat if I want to bulk, 200 calorie increase, for now. I brought this information to Trainer #2 and he told me that 3,500 is to much for me. He said I should not be eating that much protein (200G) if my lean body mass is only at 135 Lb.( I weigh 200 Lb ) “Your small, you’ll just be pissing out all that protein”. So he then worked something out and set me at 2,235 Calories (162 P 250 C 65 F ) < Protein, Carbs, Fats. That compared to my other numbers which where set at 3500 (200 P 500 C 77F)
So I’m debating which is the right path to take, 2,235 or 3,500 for lean bulking.

I think you need to go ahead and just quit calling "trainer #2" a trainer at all. If your intent is to BULK, why would he recommend you eat BELOW your TDEE? His comment to you about protein consumption is also completely ignorant. Do you realistically NEED 200g of protein per day? Nah. But, "derp derp, you're just gonna piss it all out"? Clown.

IF your TDEE is in fact 3300, then his recommended 2235 will have you losing weight, and PDQ too.

That said, you mentioned you're at 31% bodyfat. Where did you get that number? This is just my opinion and obviously you can do what you want with your body, but if my bodyfat were anywhere near 31%, I would not even consider bulking (and that's speaking as a female, with higher safe/essential levels of bodyfat from the get-go).

I had a FIT3D InBody Scan, that’s how I got the body fat percentage. And after reading the comments, everyone has actually pointed out that bulking is not the best thing for me if my body fat is that high. I honestly did not really think about that, my mentality going into this was. “I’m gonna bulk up, get more muscle mass then cut, since more muscle facilitates fat loss”. But I think now it would be a better idea to instead cut some fat then bulk. I’m really new to this so I’m all over the place trying to figure out what to do.

At 31% you would definitely want to cut. You should get into the weight room though...if you're a novice you will experience noob gains and retain the muscle mass you have. Typically it is recommended for a male to be around 10% BF to start running a bulk cycle. This is for a couple of reasons...starting out lean allows you to maximize your bulk cycle before you cut. Secondly, when you run a bulk at higher BF% your hormones are such that you will actually put on more fat than muscle...when you start lean your hormones are such that you can at least put on a 1:1 ratio.

GaryRuns

A_ARON78 wrote: »

JBanx256 wrote: »

A_ARON78 wrote: »

My TDEE is 3,300, I multiplied my BMR (1913) by 1.725 ( Workout 6-7 times a week with cardio ). 3500 is the amount I should eat if I want to bulk, 200 calorie increase, for now. I brought this information to Trainer #2 and he told me that 3,500 is to much for me. He said I should not be eating that much protein (200G) if my lean body mass is only at 135 Lb.( I weigh 200 Lb ) “Your small, you’ll just be pissing out all that protein”. So he then worked something out and set me at 2,235 Calories (162 P 250 C 65 F ) < Protein, Carbs, Fats. That compared to my other numbers which where set at 3500 (200 P 500 C 77F)
So I’m debating which is the right path to take, 2,235 or 3,500 for lean bulking.

I think you need to go ahead and just quit calling "trainer #2" a trainer at all. If your intent is to BULK, why would he recommend you eat BELOW your TDEE? His comment to you about protein consumption is also completely ignorant. Do you realistically NEED 200g of protein per day? Nah. But, "derp derp, you're just gonna piss it all out"? Clown.

IF your TDEE is in fact 3300, then his recommended 2235 will have you losing weight, and PDQ too.

That said, you mentioned you're at 31% bodyfat. Where did you get that number? This is just my opinion and obviously you can do what you want with your body, but if my bodyfat were anywhere near 31%, I would not even consider bulking (and that's speaking as a female, with higher safe/essential levels of bodyfat from the get-go).

I had a FIT3D InBody Scan, that’s how I got the body fat percentage. And after reading the comments, everyone has actually pointed out that bulking is not the best thing for me if my body fat is that high. I honestly did not really think about that, my mentality going into this was. “I’m gonna bulk up, get more muscle mass then cut, since more muscle facilitates fat loss”. But I think now it would be a better idea to instead cut some fat then bulk. I’m really new to this so I’m all over the place trying to figure out what to do.

Most of the science-based folks I've listened to lately are starting to say that they think you absolutely can gain lean mass (aka muscle) while in a calorie deficit, especially if you're at 15%+ body fat (male), IF you follow the simple rules:

• Eating at least 1.0 gram of protein, per pound of lean body mass, per day
• Keep the deficit small. Generally they consider that about 10-15% below your maintenance level.
• Use a well designed, progressive, lifting program
• Make sure you pay attention to recovery, sleep, deloads, etc.

Is it optimal? No. You definitely would gain more lean mass with a calorie surplus, but health-wise you're better off getting into a more healthy body fat range first.