My Company HSA - Trimming The FAT(tys)
Replies
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this is really ****ed up, but unfortunately, health care is a privilege and not a right in the US so they are completely legal in their decision to do this. it just goes to show what a broken system we have. god, that's depressing. sorry to hear this, hopefully it either won't go through or you can find a better company to work for (easier said than done, I know).
I get tired of people thinking healthcare is a right. Since when do you have to right to someone elses time and talent? Healthcare is not just a magical box that you step into and BOOM, you are healthy. Doctors work their *kitten* off to get where they are, and they deserve to get paid. Nobody has a right to that persons hard work.
Likewise, it is the responsibility of the person utilizing the service to pay for it. Who else should pay? Me? No thanks, Jeff. I already have myself and my kids to take care of.0 -
If obesity is so "controllable" then why is there a 95% failure rate with general methods and an +75% failure rate with weight loss surgery? So if one knows that the rate of failure is so high then why should those be penalized when there is no real help?i am a bit ambivalent about this one. The stark reality is overweight individuals cost employers more to insure so it could be argued that those employees should contribute more to the cost of their care. I view obesity a bit differently than say Multiple Sclerosis or Crohn's Disease as obesity is within our control (albeit controlling it isn't easy or fun). My preference would be to do what my employer did which was to not penalize those that lowered their BMI by a certain # of points in the last year... to allow people to correct their behavior and lose weight over time.
Because people give up, that's why the failure rate is high. Tons of people lose weight consistently.I'm going to consider it discrimination until they apply the same rule to smokers, unless they have done so already. Smoking is a direct comparison because, like obesity, you are also putting yourself at a very high risk for health problems because of your habits. As for the argument that people with, say, cancer or cystic fibrosis should also pay a higher premium, for the most part they would not have caused these conditions by their lifestyles.
OP, what is the BMI cutoff for the new policy?
Every insurance I've ever signed up for has had a higher premium for smokers than non-smokers.
As it should be. I also don't disagree with the premium for an obese individual being higher (and this is coming from someone who is not quite out of the "obese" category of BMI). If the company is also revoking their contributions towards smoker's policies then I would not feel they were in the wrong. I completely understand that they may need to cut costs somewhere and this is the way they can do it thanks to our healthcare system. However, if they are still contributing to smokers' policies, then I feel there is a big ethical problem with the new rule.0 -
this is really ****ed up, but unfortunately, health care is a privilege and not a right in the US so they are completely legal in their decision to do this. it just goes to show what a broken system we have. god, that's depressing. sorry to hear this, hopefully it either won't go through or you can find a better company to work for (easier said than done, I know).
I get tired of people thinking healthcare is a right. Since when do you have to right to someone elses time and talent? Healthcare is not just a magical box that you step into and BOOM, you are healthy. Doctors work their *kitten* off to get where they are, and they deserve to get paid. Nobody has a right to that persons hard work.
Likewise, it is the responsibility of the person utilizing the service to pay for it. Who else should pay? Me? No thanks, Jeff. I already have myself and my kids to take care of.
What? Who said I didn't think doctors should get paid? I won't get too far into politics here, but I was thinking more along the lines that the government should pay the doctors instead of maybe financing a new war every couple years. I have no idea where you got that I think doctors should work for free.0 -
You've failed to state the "actual" terms of this new stuff. I'd be willing to bet they're not as bad as you're saying.
And it's not discrimination. It's a known fact that obese people cost everyone on a whole more in insurance, so why not have people that are out of shape pay more?
I'm going to consider it discrimination until they apply the same rule to smokers, unless they have done so already. Smoking is a direct comparison because, like obesity, you are also putting yourself at a very high risk for health problems because of your habits. As for the argument that people with, say, cancer or cystic fibrosis should also pay a higher premium, for the most part they would not have caused these conditions by their lifestyles.
OP, what is the BMI cutoff for the new policy?
Smokers almost always get hit on company HSA policies. They get docked $600 on our policy.
If I do not meet the health BMI requirements, I get docked $1500.
I have the details of what my company requires but do not feel I need to justify them to everyone here (not offending your response above).
The principle is my point. Not my company's BMI requirement which some may or may not feel is obtainable, etc.0 -
I get tired of people thinking healthcare is a right. Since when do you have to right to someone elses time and talent? Healthcare is not just a magical box that you step into and BOOM, you are healthy. Doctors work their *kitten* off to get where they are, and they deserve to get paid. Nobody has a right to that persons hard work.
Likewise, it is the responsibility of the person utilizing the service to pay for it. Who else should pay? Me? No thanks, Jeff. I already have myself and my kids to take care of.
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This is why our system doesnt work for most (unless you can afford it) too many penalization.
The reality of it is the ones who cost us the most are the elderly, women of child bearing age, and the very young.
I dont blame companies though if you look at the amount the are paying in premiums you would be flabbergasted. Of course, they will find ways to cut costs and with the new Obummercare coming out companies can expect astronomical premiums.
I dont think it's right, but it is what it is until America figures out that universal is our only route to provide care to all her citizens or we continue down the same route companies drop insurance, hospitals go bankrupt, physicians are forced to sale their private practice, and you get to claim bankruptcy after your medical costs get out of control.0 -
You've failed to state the "actual" terms of this new stuff. I'd be willing to bet they're not as bad as you're saying.
And it's not discrimination. It's a known fact that obese people cost everyone on a whole more in insurance, so why not have people that are out of shape pay more?
I'm going to consider it discrimination until they apply the same rule to smokers, unless they have done so already. Smoking is a direct comparison because, like obesity, you are also putting yourself at a very high risk for health problems because of your habits. As for the argument that people with, say, cancer or cystic fibrosis should also pay a higher premium, for the most part they would not have caused these conditions by their lifestyles.
OP, what is the BMI cutoff for the new policy?
Smokers almost always get hit on company HSA policies. They get docked $600 on our policy.
If I do not meet the health BMI requirements, I get docked $1500.
I have the details of what my company requires but do not feel I need to justify them to everyone here (not offending your response above).
The principle is my point. Not my company's BMI requirement which some may or may not feel is obtainable, etc.
So, I can only be left to believe that your company's requirements aren't that bad, and you're leaving out a lot because you want people on your side about hte principle.
What it comes down to is, obese people are less healthy. A healthy person shouldn't have to pay as much as an unhealthy person. Period.
And yes, there are ways around BMI being used.0 -
this is really ****ed up, but unfortunately, health care is a privilege and not a right in the US so they are completely legal in their decision to do this. it just goes to show what a broken system we have. god, that's depressing. sorry to hear this, hopefully it either won't go through or you can find a better company to work for (easier said than done, I know).
I get tired of people thinking healthcare is a right. Since when do you have to right to someone elses time and talent? Healthcare is not just a magical box that you step into and BOOM, you are healthy. Doctors work their *kitten* off to get where they are, and they deserve to get paid. Nobody has a right to that persons hard work.
Likewise, it is the responsibility of the person utilizing the service to pay for it. Who else should pay? Me? No thanks, Jeff. I already have myself and my kids to take care of.
OH, I pay! Trust me sir, I pay....to the tune of $8k this year (not including what I pay into my insurance plan pre-tax every month)0 -
This is why our system doesnt work for most (unless you can afford it) too many penalization.
The reality of it is the ones who cost us the most are the elderly, women of child bearing age, and the very young.
I dont blame companies though if you look at the amount the are paying in premiums you would be flabbergasted. Of course, they will find ways to cut costs and with the new Obummercare coming out companies can expect astronomical premiums.
I dont think it's right, but it is what it is until America figures out that universal is our only route to provide care to all her citizens or we continue down the same route companies drop insurance, hospitals go bankrupt, physicians are forced to sale their private practice, and you get to claim bankruptcy after your medical costs get out of control.
I'd rather pay for my own healthcare than have universal. It shouldn't be my responsibiltiy to pay extra taxes to cover someone else that won't help themselves.0 -
There is an ABUNDANCE of scientific evidence that obesity impacts blood pressure, blood sugar and cholesterol - high levels of which are DIRECTLY associated with a variety of chronic conditions and diseases. In the long term (over a period of years (not simply your three years) obese individuals drive up heath care costs. There is no way around that and it is a scary reality for this country.
The study you referenced about elderly overweight individuals living longest had several methodological flaws - primarily in determining which individuals to include or exclude in the study. For example, elderly people who pass away after a long period of fighting a disease will likely be thinner than they might have been had they died unexpectedly. That wasn't accounted for and that alone could significantly skew the results. The study also didn't take into account blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol, or even happiness/mobility, etc.. Sadly with obesity, the number of years spent living in poor health are increasing as well.0 -
There is an ABUNDANCE of scientific evidence that obesity impacts blood pressure, blood sugar and cholesterol - high levels of which are DIRECTLY associated with a variety of chronic conditions and diseases. In the long term (over a period of years (not simply your three years) obese individuals drive up heath care costs. There is no way around that and it is a scary reality for this country.
The study you referenced about elderly overweight individuals living longest had several methodological flaws - primarily in determining which individuals to include or exclude in the study. For example, elderly people who pass away after a long period of fighting a disease will likely be thinner than they might have been had they died unexpectedly. That wasn't accounted for and that alone could significantly skew the results. The study also didn't take into account blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol, or even happiness/mobility, etc.. Sadly with obesity, the number of years spent living in poor health are increasing as well.
Apparently that doesn't matter, because it's discrimination, ect.0 -
You've failed to state the "actual" terms of this new stuff. I'd be willing to bet they're not as bad as you're saying.
And it's not discrimination. It's a known fact that obese people cost everyone on a whole more in insurance, so why not have people that are out of shape pay more?
I'm going to consider it discrimination until they apply the same rule to smokers, unless they have done so already. Smoking is a direct comparison because, like obesity, you are also putting yourself at a very high risk for health problems because of your habits. As for the argument that people with, say, cancer or cystic fibrosis should also pay a higher premium, for the most part they would not have caused these conditions by their lifestyles.
OP, what is the BMI cutoff for the new policy?
Smokers almost always get hit on company HSA policies. They get docked $600 on our policy.
If I do not meet the health BMI requirements, I get docked $1500.
I have the details of what my company requires but do not feel I need to justify them to everyone here (not offending your response above).
The principle is my point. Not my company's BMI requirement which some may or may not feel is obtainable, etc.
So, I can only be left to believe that your company's requirements aren't that bad, and you're leaving out a lot because you want people on your side about hte principle.
What it comes down to is, obese people are less healthy. A healthy person shouldn't have to pay as much as an unhealthy person. Period.
And yes, there are ways around BMI being used.
Wrong again. It's because I don't feel justifying myself to you is necessary. Also, the requirement could be BMI < 10 and someone would argue that's justifiable.0 -
This is why our system doesnt work for most (unless you can afford it) too many penalization.
The reality of it is the ones who cost us the most are the elderly, women of child bearing age, and the very young.
I dont blame companies though if you look at the amount the are paying in premiums you would be flabbergasted. Of course, they will find ways to cut costs and with the new Obummercare coming out companies can expect astronomical premiums.
I dont think it's right, but it is what it is until America figures out that universal is our only route to provide care to all her citizens or we continue down the same route companies drop insurance, hospitals go bankrupt, physicians are forced to sale their private practice, and you get to claim bankruptcy after your medical costs get out of control.
I'd rather pay for my own healthcare than have universal. It shouldn't be my responsibiltiy to pay extra taxes to cover someone else that won't help themselves.
At risk of opening a can of worms... I have to agree with you about not having to pay more taxes, however, I also think that with the astronomical rate we are taxed already healthcare should have been universal long ago. The problem is that the US prioritizes other things and the government spends its money accordingly.0 -
You've failed to state the "actual" terms of this new stuff. I'd be willing to bet they're not as bad as you're saying.
And it's not discrimination. It's a known fact that obese people cost everyone on a whole more in insurance, so why not have people that are out of shape pay more?
I'm going to consider it discrimination until they apply the same rule to smokers, unless they have done so already. Smoking is a direct comparison because, like obesity, you are also putting yourself at a very high risk for health problems because of your habits. As for the argument that people with, say, cancer or cystic fibrosis should also pay a higher premium, for the most part they would not have caused these conditions by their lifestyles.
OP, what is the BMI cutoff for the new policy?
Smokers almost always get hit on company HSA policies. They get docked $600 on our policy.
If I do not meet the health BMI requirements, I get docked $1500.
I have the details of what my company requires but do not feel I need to justify them to everyone here (not offending your response above).
The principle is my point. Not my company's BMI requirement which some may or may not feel is obtainable, etc.
So, I can only be left to believe that your company's requirements aren't that bad, and you're leaving out a lot because you want people on your side about hte principle.
What it comes down to is, obese people are less healthy. A healthy person shouldn't have to pay as much as an unhealthy person. Period.
And yes, there are ways around BMI being used.
Wrong again. It's because I don't feel justifying myself to you is necessary. Also, the requirement could be BMI < 10 and someone would argue that's justifiable.
You posted on a forum wanting people to side with you that this is wrong, but won't justify why it's wrong.
Yea, that makes sense.0 -
i am a bit ambivalent about this one. The stark reality is overweight individuals cost employers more to insure so it could be argued that those employees should contribute more to the cost of their care. I view obesity a bit differently than say Multiple Sclerosis or Crohn's Disease as obesity is within our control (albeit controlling it isn't easy or fun). My preference would be to do what my employer did which was to not penalize those that lowered their BMI by a certain # of points in the last year... to allow people to correct their behavior and lose weight over time.
Just my own anecdotal evidence at 365lbs I was probably sick once or twice in two years of work. It was the older ones, the ones with children, or the ones who smoked who were always at the doctor. So how did I cost the company more?
If obesity is so "controllable" then why is there a 95% failure rate with general methods and an +75% failure rate with weight loss surgery? So if one knows that the rate of failure is so high then why should those be penalized when there is no real help?
Where is the evidence that BMI corresponds to overall health? In fact, in the elderly the ones with a lowered mortality are actually those in the overweight category compared to normal, obese, or underweight.
There is an ABUNDANCE of scientific evidence that obesity impacts blood pressure, blood sugar and cholesterol - high levels of which are DIRECTLY associated with a variety of chronic conditions and diseases. In the long term (over a period of years (not simply your three years) obese individuals drive up heath care costs. There is no way around that and it is a scary reality for this country.
The study you referenced about elderly overweight individuals living longest had several methodological flaws - primarily in determining which individuals to include or exclude in the study. For example, elderly people who pass away after a long period of fighting a disease will likely be thinner than they might have been had they died unexpectedly. That wasn't accounted for and that alone could significantly skew the results. The study also didn't take into account blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol, or even happiness/mobility, etc.. Sadly with obesity, the number of years spent living in poor health are increasing as well.0 -
this is really ****ed up, but unfortunately, health care is a privilege and not a right in the US so they are completely legal in their decision to do this. it just goes to show what a broken system we have. god, that's depressing. sorry to hear this, hopefully it either won't go through or you can find a better company to work for (easier said than done, I know).
I get tired of people thinking healthcare is a right. Since when do you have to right to someone elses time and talent? Healthcare is not just a magical box that you step into and BOOM, you are healthy. Doctors work their *kitten* off to get where they are, and they deserve to get paid. Nobody has a right to that persons hard work.
Likewise, it is the responsibility of the person utilizing the service to pay for it. Who else should pay? Me? No thanks, Jeff. I already have myself and my kids to take care of.
What? Who said I didn't think doctors should get paid? I won't get too far into politics here, but I was thinking more along the lines that the government should pay the doctors instead of maybe financing a new war every couple years. I have no idea where you got that I think doctors should work for free.
The government does not have money. The government only takes money. So either the doctors work for free, or I pay for it. Along with other tax payers. It is not my, nor anyone elses, repsonsibility to fund your medical care.0 -
You've failed to state the "actual" terms of this new stuff. I'd be willing to bet they're not as bad as you're saying.
And it's not discrimination. It's a known fact that obese people cost everyone on a whole more in insurance, so why not have people that are out of shape pay more?
I'm going to consider it discrimination until they apply the same rule to smokers, unless they have done so already. Smoking is a direct comparison because, like obesity, you are also putting yourself at a very high risk for health problems because of your habits. As for the argument that people with, say, cancer or cystic fibrosis should also pay a higher premium, for the most part they would not have caused these conditions by their lifestyles.
OP, what is the BMI cutoff for the new policy?
Smokers almost always get hit on company HSA policies. They get docked $600 on our policy.
If I do not meet the health BMI requirements, I get docked $1500.
I have the details of what my company requires but do not feel I need to justify them to everyone here (not offending your response above).
The principle is my point. Not my company's BMI requirement which some may or may not feel is obtainable, etc.
So, I can only be left to believe that your company's requirements aren't that bad, and you're leaving out a lot because you want people on your side about hte principle.
What it comes down to is, obese people are less healthy. A healthy person shouldn't have to pay as much as an unhealthy person. Period.
And yes, there are ways around BMI being used.
Wrong again. It's because I don't feel justifying myself to you is necessary. Also, the requirement could be BMI < 10 and someone would argue that's justifiable.
Now I am even more curious as to what the BMI cutoff is, and if there are lower penalties for a lower BMI. It is impossible to discuss this intelligently and at length without specifics. It wouldn't be justification to provide more details, it would be allowing more evidence to be discussed. The fact of the matter is that no one can accurately agree that this principle is unethical with only knowing your side of the story.0 -
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This is a post I can get behind.0 -
My husband works for such a small company they don't offer insurance at all ... we had to go find our own (HUGE pain), pay the premiums out of pocket, as well as our HSA contribution. Luckily, we are pretty healthy for the most part. I've been keeping an eye on the news and all of the recent changes in laws and think many companies will probably be cutting back and changing offerings and incentives as new policies kick in. It will be interesting (probably NOT in a good way) to hear about other's experiences in the coming days, I'm sure you are not alone, I bet we'll be hearing more and more.0
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this is really ****ed up, but unfortunately, health care is a privilege and not a right in the US so they are completely legal in their decision to do this. it just goes to show what a broken system we have. god, that's depressing. sorry to hear this, hopefully it either won't go through or you can find a better company to work for (easier said than done, I know).
I get tired of people thinking healthcare is a right. Since when do you have to right to someone elses time and talent? Healthcare is not just a magical box that you step into and BOOM, you are healthy. Doctors work their *kitten* off to get where they are, and they deserve to get paid. Nobody has a right to that persons hard work.
Likewise, it is the responsibility of the person utilizing the service to pay for it. Who else should pay? Me? No thanks, Jeff. I already have myself and my kids to take care of.
What? Who said I didn't think doctors should get paid? I won't get too far into politics here, but I was thinking more along the lines that the government should pay the doctors instead of maybe financing a new war every couple years. I have no idea where you got that I think doctors should work for free.
The government does not have money. The government only takes money. So either the doctors work for free, or I pay for it. Along with other tax payers. It is not my, nor anyone elses, repsonsibility to fund your medical care.
I never understand this argument. I don't get how out of all the things the government pays for, financing a fat person's medical care would somehow be the worst.0 -
This is a post I can get behind.
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This is a post I can get behind.![quote]](http://i.imgur.com/ifYUt.gif[/quote])
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There is a real disease where the body stores food as fat right away instead of burning it. These people need help to control the weight their bodies put on. They can't lose fat as easily as some of us can and would need insurance to help pay for their medical needs. The new system would screw over anyone with this rare condition0
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I read the OP's initial thread and it threw-off red lights all over the place for me.
I then googled the following: Is Obesity a Disability and the very first article is below. Follow the link to the complete article:
IS Obesity A Disability:
"The above question is an important one in employment law. If the answer is “yes,” then obesity is covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act. That, in turn, means that obese people are afforded legal protection against discrimination based on their weight, and a sharp tool with which to enforce that protection in a court of law.
Historically, obese employees have had a tough time convincing judges they are disabled in lawsuits alleging employer discrimination, unless their obesity is a symptom of another disability. But the American Medical Association may have improved their case, according to employment lawyers. (Hat tip to Walter Olson at Overlawyered.)
In June, the AMA upgraded obesity from a condition to a disease. Jon Hyman, a partner at Kohrman Jackson & Krantz PLL in Cleveland, said the move by the physicians’ group almost surely sweeps obesity within the ambit of the 1990 anti-discrimination law, which was amended in 2008 to broaden the definition of “disability.”"
Complete article at:
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2013/07/08/is-obesity-a-disability/0 -
I read the OP's initial thread and it threw-off red lights all over the place for me.
I then googled the following: Is Obesity a Disability and the very first article is below. Follow the link to the complete article:
IS Obesity A Disability:
"The above question is an important one in employment law. If the answer is “yes,” then obesity is covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act. That, in turn, means that obese people are afforded legal protection against discrimination based on their weight, and a sharp tool with which to enforce that protection in a court of law.
Historically, obese employees have had a tough time convincing judges they are disabled in lawsuits alleging employer discrimination, unless their obesity is a symptom of another disability. But the American Medical Association may have improved their case, according to employment lawyers. (Hat tip to Walter Olson at Overlawyered.)
In June, the AMA upgraded obesity from a condition to a disease. Jon Hyman, a partner at Kohrman Jackson & Krantz PLL in Cleveland, said the move by the physicians’ group almost surely sweeps obesity within the ambit of the 1990 anti-discrimination law, which was amended in 2008 to broaden the definition of “disability.”"
Complete article at:
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2013/07/08/is-obesity-a-disability/
The fact that obesity is a disease is the most laughable thing that has ever happened.
"Hey, let's make something controllable and brought on mostly by laziness into a disease."0 -
There is a real disease where the body stores food as fat right away instead of burning it. These people need help to control the weight their bodies put on. They can't lose fat as easily as some of us can and would need insurance to help pay for their medical needs. The new system would screw over anyone with this rare condition
Do you have this condition? I believe it's called eating too much food.0 -
In June, the AMA upgraded obesity from a condition to a disease. Jon Hyman, a partner at Kohrman Jackson & Krantz PLL in Cleveland, said the move by the physicians’ group almost surely sweeps obesity within the ambit of the 1990 anti-discrimination law, which was amended in 2008 to broaden the definition of “disability.”"There is a real disease where the body stores food as fat right away instead of burning it. These people need help to control the weight their bodies put on. They can't lose fat as easily as some of us can and would need insurance to help pay for their medical needs. The new system would screw over anyone with this rare condition
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I feel sorry for any men who are muscular
Oh wow!! I hadn't thought of that!!! Geez! It's such a crock.
Yep. 6'2", 202, 10% body fat, 32 inch waist. I'm "overweight" by BMI. And I'm not big, just a normal looking guy in street clothes, wear a medium or a large shirt depending on cut. That system is SERIOUSLY flawed.
Eventually somebody like me will take good enough care of themselves to get high muscle content and be considered "obese" and thus lose benefits.0 -
I feel sorry for any men who are muscular
Oh wow!! I hadn't thought of that!!! Geez! It's such a crock.
Yep. 6'2", 202, 10% body fat, 32 inch waist. I'm "overweight" by BMI. And I'm not big, just a normal looking guy in street clothes, wear a medium or a large depending on cut. That system is SERIOUSLY flawed.
Eventually somebody like me will take good enough care of themselves to get high muscle content and be considered "obese" and thus lose benefits.
In cases such as yours, body fat % accompanied by a doctors test results showing said % and fat/muscle ratio can be used to keep lower benefits, if BMI is too high.0
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