Muscle gains while losing fat (cont. from AT thread)

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Replies

  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,207 Member
    wait, so if body fat metabolizes into glycogen (and other things), why wouldn't that glycogen be used to replenish muscles?
    The conversion of fat to glycogen is miniscule and not really worth noting.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,207 Member
    wait, so if body fat metabolizes into glycogen (and other things), why wouldn't that glycogen be used to replenish muscles?

    Well, the rate is minor if ever, debate on that. And only when needed from any source actually, because the conversion is energy intensive. And as the body seems to show, efficiency of use. No need to convert if liver stores are available to keep blood sugar up already.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis
    Muscle glycogen is for muscles only and liver is for organs and muscle if there's any left after the brain and other organs have been fueled. Usually around 80 to 100 g's are stored in the liver and I wouldn't be counting on that for muscle glycogen replenishing.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Muscle glycogen is for muscles only and liver is for organs and muscle if there's any left after the brain and other organs have been fueled. Usually around 80 to 100 g's are stored in the liver and I wouldn't be counting on that for muscle glycogen replenishing.

    Exactly, and the bad side effect if your muscle glucose stores are always at a super depleted state, and those liver stores may be tapped, but not emptied because body knows it needs to keep blood sugar levels at certain range.

    That's a good reminder too, extra glucose in the upper body can't be put into the bloodstream for use by the legs for instance.

    I'm thinking the low-carb crowd in ketosis, mostly depleted storage state, hence their fast weight loss usually when starting the diet. When they go off, bam 5-10 lbs back on. Usually the complaint anyway, though they still lost fat.

    But if the exercise session is that long with brain and organs using that liver fuel supplied to blood, now you have to convert protein to glucose to keep it up. If you got plenty of protein floating around and intensity is low enough, fine and dandy. If not you will be slowed down usually.

    That's why I found it so interesting the Paleo and Primal guys both recommend hardly any cardio above walking and some sprints infrequently, they know what's up. But they had so many asking how to do marathons and centuries and such on their diets - they came out with some revised recommendations to the eating if you want to those endurance cardio training.
  • sarahkatara
    sarahkatara Posts: 826 Member
    this is an interesting read:

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

    by an author I have read much of, and have come to trust.

    Thank you for the link- I'm working on body recomp and look for any articles and info i can find. I'm one of those people that does gain muscle quite easily and quickly but that doesn't translate into losing fat easily too! I've been maintaining at what is my highest weight but look very different from when i was at this weight previously. I still can't get used to the idea of seeing changes in my body but absolutely no movement on the scale! Understanding more about the process truly helps.
  • sarahkatara
    sarahkatara Posts: 826 Member
    I am a living example of someone whos eating on a deficit and still gaining muscle while losing fat, 8 weeks 2 lbs of muscle and loss of 1-1.5% body fat. I was just recently tested and those where the results.
    I eat daily 1900-2000 was the most and 2000 was only for a day lol.
    low carbs, high protein
    Note is is not on purpose, just what i like to eat... tuna, chicken breast, etc are low in carbs.
    I weigh 222lbs now and consume around 200grams of protein a day. I try not to go below that number.
    I try not to eat more then 30 grams of protein at a time for maximum absorbing effect.
    I dont work, go to the gym 4 times a week for 2hrs at a time, rest time in between sets is no more then 60seconds.
    Sets range from 4-7, reps range from 6-8 sometimes 12.

    Can you please share more knowledge about not eating too much protein at one time? I am very aware that this is a possibility but am not sure why/how that works. I do my research too but would like to hear what you know as well! I eat between 20-40 grams of protein at one time. I get up to 200 grams per day. I'm at 35/35/25 on my macros right now, aiming for 30/40/30. I'm beginning to see some slow progress. I finally lost an inch around my waist after weeks and weeks. Thanks for anything you can share!

    Does anyone else have knowledge about protein & how it's absorption affects muscle building/fat loss? :flowerforyou:
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Does anyone else have knowledge about protein & how it's absorption affects muscle building/fat loss? :flowerforyou:

    Good coverage with the article referenced that gives a great description of the premise based on myth, and the results of studies.

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/533249-what-is-the-max-protein-absorbed-from-one-meal
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,207 Member
    Muscle glycogen is for muscles only and liver is for organs and muscle if there's any left after the brain and other organs have been fueled. Usually around 80 to 100 g's are stored in the liver and I wouldn't be counting on that for muscle glycogen replenishing.

    Exactly, and the bad side effect if your muscle glucose stores are always at a super depleted state, and those liver stores may be tapped, but not emptied because body knows it needs to keep blood sugar levels at certain range.

    That's a good reminder too, extra glucose in the upper body can't be put into the bloodstream for use by the legs for instance.

    I'm thinking the low-carb crowd in ketosis, mostly depleted storage state, hence their fast weight loss usually when starting the diet. When they go off, bam 5-10 lbs back on. Usually the complaint anyway, though they still lost fat.

    But if the exercise session is that long with brain and organs using that liver fuel supplied to blood, now you have to convert protein to glucose to keep it up. If you got plenty of protein floating around and intensity is low enough, fine and dandy. If not you will be slowed down usually.

    That's why I found it so interesting the Paleo and Primal guys both recommend hardly any cardio above walking and some sprints infrequently, they know what's up. But they had so many asking how to do marathons and centuries and such on their diets - they came out with some revised recommendations to the eating if you want to those endurance cardio training.
    Carb loading and supercompensation for athletic endevours that call for endurance. The CKD or cyclical ketogenic diet calls for carb loading and some endurance athletes will completely drain their glycogen stores plus a few days then eat as many fast digesting simple and processed carbs within a specific timeframe which allows apparently for more stored glycogen than normal and quite a bit more. After that spillover takes place which has been the downfall of many contest ready body builders.....instead of looking pumped, they look flabby.
  • blues4miles
    blues4miles Posts: 1,481 Member
    Interesting discussion. Don't want to derail but saw this earlier:
    so, the cloth tape is not my *only* method of measuring, although it's the only one I would consider accurate.

    Isn't measuring muscle with tape not a great way of knowing whether you've *gained* muscle or not? Doesn't someone who just started lifting generally have their muscles not only store extra water, but also if you JUST lifted your muscles can be a little inflamed/swollen temporarily? Combine that with losing fat and muscle getting more visible, this seems like the least effective way to have any clue as to whether you are "building" muscle or not.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,207 Member
    Interesting discussion. Don't want to derail but saw this earlier:
    so, the cloth tape is not my *only* method of measuring, although it's the only one I would consider accurate.

    Isn't measuring muscle with tape not a great way of knowing whether you've *gained* muscle or not? Doesn't someone who just started lifting generally have their muscles not only store extra water, but also if you JUST lifted your muscles can be a little inflamed/swollen temporarily? Combine that with losing fat and muscle getting more visible, this seems like the least effective way to have any clue as to whether you are "building" muscle or not.
    It still works over the course.....day to day not so much. Measurements and the mirror are your friend.
  • sarahkatara
    sarahkatara Posts: 826 Member
    Does anyone else have knowledge about protein & how it's absorption affects muscle building/fat loss? :flowerforyou:

    Good coverage with the article referenced that gives a great description of the premise based on myth, and the results of studies.

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/533249-what-is-the-max-protein-absorbed-from-one-meal

    Thanks very much! I stay away from the forums because of all the drama, usually, so i appreciate you pointing me to the more helpful threads :)
  • joshdann
    joshdann Posts: 618 Member
    yeah I mainly use the cloth tape every couple of weeks to measure long-term progress.
  • james6998
    james6998 Posts: 743 Member
    I am a living example of someone whos eating on a deficit and still gaining muscle while losing fat, 8 weeks 2 lbs of muscle and loss of 1-1.5% body fat. I was just recently tested and those where the results.
    I eat daily 1900-2000 was the most and 2000 was only for a day lol.
    low carbs, high protein
    Note is is not on purpose, just what i like to eat... tuna, chicken breast, etc are low in carbs.
    I weigh 222lbs now and consume around 200grams of protein a day. I try not to go below that number.
    I try not to eat more then 30 grams of protein at a time for maximum absorbing effect.
    I dont work, go to the gym 4 times a week for 2hrs at a time, rest time in between sets is no more then 60seconds.
    Sets range from 4-7, reps range from 6-8 sometimes 12.

    Can you please share more knowledge about not eating too much protein at one time? I am very aware that this is a possibility but am not sure why/how that works. I do my research too but would like to hear what you know as well! I eat between 20-40 grams of protein at one time. I get up to 200 grams per day. I'm at 35/35/25 on my macros right now, aiming for 30/40/30. I'm beginning to see some slow progress. I finally lost an inch around my waist after weeks and weeks. Thanks for anything you can share!

    Does anyone else have knowledge about protein & how it's absorption affects muscle building/fat loss? :flowerforyou:

    Honestly if I had more cash for food i wouldn't worry so much about maxing out protein absorption. Nothing is written in stone about this, however its considered harder on the body when it comes to absorption or a large amount of protein at once. Again everyone has their theories on what and does not work. Insteading of consuming a meal that would net me 50+ grams of protein, i space out the meals at least 1-2 hrs apart. Yes you can absorb more protein the 20-30 grams but there is a risk on the body just flushing it. Its also be written but again everyone is different, why protein powder (whey) does not exceed a serving size of more then 35grams, 30 being the avg high end. I really don't care about theory, science fact, whatever. I know what works for me, and thats all the proof i need.
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
    I have to say, the "30g protein absorption" thing doesn't seem to make much sense from an evolutionary perspective. I can see something like eating a whack of protein results in 30g being absorbed per hour, yes, with the rest slowing digestion down until our innards can deal with it. That makes perfect sense given our long history as species where protein would have been a hit-or-miss "eat it all now or lose it" affair.

    There is supposedly a study out of France that looked at this issue - took a number of test subjects, one group ate all their daily protein at once, the other in small chunks over time, and things like nitrogen balance etc were found to be the same in both. Unfortunately I can't seem to find a link to the actual paper, only to blogs etc talking about the paper.
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
    Check out the Primal and Paleo sites...

    No thank you. Spend 18 months with that crowd - that was more than enough. :) Some awesome folks in that crowd, for sure, but mostly drowned out by a whole lot of wingnuts who honestly believe you can eat bacon 24/7 and lose weight, and that elevating your heart rate for more than 2 minutes a day is "chronic cardio". Sisson's site in particular is a catastrophic avalanche of "i'm eating clean, 3 pounds of bacon a day, why am I not losing weight?"

    Re: boot camp. It's filled with guys who go in not being able to do a single pull up and come out doing a dozen. To me, that's an increase in strength. I do agree that someone already athlete-fit may well find a shift in their body they may not like or expect - in my cadre we had a Div 1A guy who lost his athletic scholarship, and in some ways, he came out less strong than he went in.
  • joshdann
    joshdann Posts: 618 Member
    I have to say, the "30g protein absorption" thing doesn't seem to make much sense from an evolutionary perspective. I can see something like eating a whack of protein results in 30g being absorbed per hour, yes, with the rest slowing digestion down until our innards can deal with it. That makes perfect sense given our long history as species where protein would have been a hit-or-miss "eat it all now or lose it" affair.

    There is supposedly a study out of France that looked at this issue - took a number of test subjects, one group ate all their daily protein at once, the other in small chunks over time, and things like nitrogen balance etc were found to be the same in both. Unfortunately I can't seem to find a link to the actual paper, only to blogs etc talking about the paper.
    The link is upthread. You might have to click through a couple to get there, though. on my phone right now so no time to figure it out, but I'm confident you can find it.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,207 Member
    I have to say, the "30g protein absorption" thing doesn't seem to make much sense from an evolutionary perspective. I can see something like eating a whack of protein results in 30g being absorbed per hour, yes, with the rest slowing digestion down until our innards can deal with it. That makes perfect sense given our long history as species where protein would have been a hit-or-miss "eat it all now or lose it" affair.

    There is supposedly a study out of France that looked at this issue - took a number of test subjects, one group ate all their daily protein at once, the other in small chunks over time, and things like nitrogen balance etc were found to be the same in both. Unfortunately I can't seem to find a link to the actual paper, only to blogs etc talking about the paper.
    The link is upthread. You might have to click through a couple to get there, though. on my phone right now so no time to figure it out, but I'm confident you can find it.
    Here's Alan Aragon's thoughts.

    http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/
  • joshdann
    joshdann Posts: 618 Member
    bump to keep the thread active

    also, I"m starting to put a little more stock in the carb timing concept. I've played around with it the past week or so, and have noticed a day-to-day difference in my workouts and recovery times. having a chunk of carbs (with protein, of course) before and after my heaviest workouts seems to help on both sides - I work out harder and recover more quickly. Leaving the carbs out, or taking them earlier in the day, I tend to be more lethargic in the weight room (not terrible, just enough to be noticeable) and recovery time is noticeably longer. Instead of returning to full functionality the next morning, I find that my entire day is rough. Just some food for thought.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Noticable too. The few times doing a morning lifting session, on empty stomach. I'm wide awake, but not moving that powerfully.

    But normal time is after work, and I need a snack about 4:30 anyway, so loaded there. Or it's after little guy's bedtime, so dinner before. Though I could do without the repeat taste testing on some lifts.

    Sleep is other big factor. Should be a very controllable one.

    There was another study on endurance cycling, and some protein drink 30 min prior to bedtime increased their ability to endurance longer the next day.

    Just as the 4:1 ratio study was for endurance performance, but many have seen good effects from lifting too, I'll wager that protein before bed would benefit lifting too. Makes sense, great repair time.
  • JorisSt
    JorisSt Posts: 36
    Is it healthy to eat proteins just before going to bed???

    Joris S.
    Musclemaximum.org
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Is it healthy to eat proteins just before going to bed???

    Joris S.
    Musclemaximum.org

    Sure, if body can use them in repair, and during sleep is great repair time, there they are.

    If not needed after probably 4-5 hrs, then converted to glucose and stored if any stores to top off, probably some liver stores at that point, if not some muscle stores.
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