calorie deficit, or keto?

normalshk
normalshk Posts: 1 Member
edited June 2023 in Health and Weight Loss
i am deciding which one i should go on, i am trying to lose visceral fat!

calorie deficit, or keto? 34 votes

calorie deficit
73% 25 votes
keto
5% 2 votes
both?
20% 7 votes

Replies

  • sollyn23l2
    sollyn23l2 Posts: 1,788 Member
    Keto is simply another tool to reach a calorie deficit, so it's a bit of a moot question. If you enjoy eating lots of fat (75% of your calories) and no grains, potatos, or fruit (except the occassional berry), and can foresee doing that for the rest of your life, go for it. But that's a pretty unfortunate way to live, in my mind. And it's completely unecessary.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,265 Member
    edited June 2023
    What do you normally eat now? Keto is extreme and if you've been consuming the standard American diet most of your life it will seem like it's in a different dimension and it's very cumbersome to maintain on a constant basis and most never make it further than a few weeks, and actually never reached full ketosis. Just a heads up, and I've been low carb for a decade with some extended time with keto as well and didn't find any advantage for me personally but this is just my opinion.

    I suggest, ad nauseam, that you try and consume as many whole foods as possible with a focus on your protein intake and the energy macros of fat and carbs are consumed to fit your taste preferences and where compliance is the easiest simply because these really don't make any real difference as far weight loss is concerned, although one or the other may help with satiety, which in my opinion is a key component of permanent weight loss. That's what works for me. Cheers
  • rileysowner
    rileysowner Posts: 8,336 Member
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    Keto is simply another tool to reach a calorie deficit, so it's a bit of a moot question. If you enjoy eating lots of fat (75% of your calories) and no grains, potatos, or fruit (except the occassional berry), and can foresee doing that for the rest of your life, go for it. But that's a pretty unfortunate way to live, in my mind. And it's completely unecessary.

    ^^^^^^
    THIS!!!

    Keto is not some magic that will make a person lose weight without a calorie deficit. I am guessing your question is should you do calorie counting or keto. Frankly, I don't think it hurts to do both. If you like eating in a keto pattern counting calories is not a bad idea since many foods in the keto diet are very calorie dense. If you, like many people who are overweight, have really disordered eating patterns where you do not listen to your bodies cues that it is full, you can easily over eat using a keto pattern of eating. By logging and counting those calories while learning patterns of eating that allow you to pick up on the signals from your body that you are full, learning to eat not habitually but because you are actually hungry, and the like, you can possibly move to eating without counting calories.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,865 Member
    To lose weight you have to be in a calorie deficit. Keto is just one of many ways that can help people achieve that if it suits them. If you eat keto and consume a surplus of calories, guess what happens...
  • DFW_Tom
    DFW_Tom Posts: 220 Member
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    Keto is simply another tool to reach a calorie deficit, so it's a bit of a moot question. If you enjoy eating lots of fat (75% of your calories) and no grains, potatos, or fruit (except the occassional berry), and can foresee doing that for the rest of your life, go for it. But that's a pretty unfortunate way to live, in my mind. And it's completely unecessary.

    OP, you didn't tell us why you have built up so much visceral fat that you are considering a keto meal plan. As others have pointed out, keto is a tool. A tool that many have used (including me) to over come medical issues that allowed them to lose fat for the first time in their adult life. I can not agree that it is unnecessary for you, or anyone else, simply because it is not for everyone - but it might be for some. Using a keto meal plan to lose weight quickly is not a good idea. It can be unhealthy and most people will gain the weight back quickly as soon as they go back to eating the way they use to. Used as a tool to back off of pre-diabetes or to overcome insulin resistance, or even to treat some brain malfunctions, has been very rewarding for a lot of people. Even necessary for some in my opinion.

    I quoted @sollyn23l2 because I strongly disagree with that criticism of keto. Consuming ultra low carbohydrates forever is something very few people need to do. That is not to say it isn't a valid option to consider if it helps you to be healthier long term. Just be prepared for the same type of undeserved vitriol that saying things like "sugar is addictive" or "CICO isn't enough" draw.
  • sollyn23l2
    sollyn23l2 Posts: 1,788 Member
    DFW_Tom wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    Keto is simply another tool to reach a calorie deficit, so it's a bit of a moot question. If you enjoy eating lots of fat (75% of your calories) and no grains, potatos, or fruit (except the occassional berry), and can foresee doing that for the rest of your life, go for it. But that's a pretty unfortunate way to live, in my mind. And it's completely unecessary.

    OP, you didn't tell us why you have built up so much visceral fat that you are considering a keto meal plan. As others have pointed out, keto is a tool. A tool that many have used (including me) to over come medical issues that allowed them to lose fat for the first time in their adult life. I can not agree that it is unnecessary for you, or anyone else, simply because it is not for everyone - but it might be for some. Using a keto meal plan to lose weight quickly is not a good idea. It can be unhealthy and most people will gain the weight back quickly as soon as they go back to eating the way they use to. Used as a tool to back off of pre-diabetes or to overcome insulin resistance, or even to treat some brain malfunctions, has been very rewarding for a lot of people. Even necessary for some in my opinion.

    I quoted @sollyn23l2 because I strongly disagree with that criticism of keto. Consuming ultra low carbohydrates forever is something very few people need to do. That is not to say it isn't a valid option to consider if it helps you to be healthier long term. Just be prepared for the same type of undeserved vitriol that saying things like "sugar is addictive" or "CICO isn't enough" draw.

    Keto is unnecessary. That's why it's the body's backup plan. Can it have certain benefits if done in a certain way? Maybe. But yah, anyone that wants to try it can and should. Which is what I said. It's just not how I personally would choose to live.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,620 Member
    OP, a thing I'd point out is that for many people, visceral fat is among the first to be lost. Since visceral fat is a more significant health threat, it's a good thing that it tends to metabolize earlier in weight loss.

    It's important to point out that visceral fat is not what many people call belly fat. Visceral fat is largely inside the body cavity, around one's internal organs. While it can make the abdominal area bigger (pushing from the inside), it's not the wobbly fat that sits outside the body on top of our abdominal muscles. That outside-the-body stuff is part of our subcutaneous fat. We may have a good bit of that even after the visceral fat inside the body is mostly gone.

    The subcutaneous fat has some tendencies in terms of which areas get thinner faster, but that's more unpredictable, and there's believed to be a genetic aspect to the order. In other words, it differs unpredictably from one person to the next, and we can't individually control the order. We may not lose the last of the unwanted subcutaneous fat on the abdomen until late in weight loss, close to goal weight.

    If you lose fat weight, odds are good that you'll lose visceral fat relatively early in the process. To lose fat, we need a calorie deficit - that's true whether or not we count calories. If keto helps you achieve a calorie deficit more easily (such as by reducing appetite), it will also be likely to help you lose visceral fat. If keto doesn't help you or is too hard to stick with, it won't help you lose fat, so it won't help you lose visceral fat.

    That's the bottom line, when it comes to losing visceral fat.

    It seems probable that keto does help with certain health conditions, but the details are still quite a subject of debate, and not just here in the MFP Community, but also out there in the world of nutritional and health sciences.

    If your only goal is visceral fat loss specifically or fat loss generally, you don't need to get embroiled in that debate. You can experiment: Try calorie counting, see if it works for you. If you have difficulties with it beyond the norm, especially issues with appetite, maybe try low carb and see if that helps you. If necessary, take the experiment all the way to keto levels of carbs. Or, start the experiment with low carb or keto first - whichever starting point seems more manageable to you.

    Your experience will tell you what your best path to fat loss is: Calorie counting, keto, or something else entirely. Since that's somewhat individual, others can't tell you the absolute universal answer, or tell you the answer that will for-sure apply to you.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,265 Member
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    DFW_Tom wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    Keto is simply another tool to reach a calorie deficit, so it's a bit of a moot question. If you enjoy eating lots of fat (75% of your calories) and no grains, potatos, or fruit (except the occassional berry), and can foresee doing that for the rest of your life, go for it. But that's a pretty unfortunate way to live, in my mind. And it's completely unecessary.

    OP, you didn't tell us why you have built up so much visceral fat that you are considering a keto meal plan. As others have pointed out, keto is a tool. A tool that many have used (including me) to over come medical issues that allowed them to lose fat for the first time in their adult life. I can not agree that it is unnecessary for you, or anyone else, simply because it is not for everyone - but it might be for some. Using a keto meal plan to lose weight quickly is not a good idea. It can be unhealthy and most people will gain the weight back quickly as soon as they go back to eating the way they use to. Used as a tool to back off of pre-diabetes or to overcome insulin resistance, or even to treat some brain malfunctions, has been very rewarding for a lot of people. Even necessary for some in my opinion.

    I quoted @sollyn23l2 because I strongly disagree with that criticism of keto. Consuming ultra low carbohydrates forever is something very few people need to do. That is not to say it isn't a valid option to consider if it helps you to be healthier long term. Just be prepared for the same type of undeserved vitriol that saying things like "sugar is addictive" or "CICO isn't enough" draw.

    Keto is unnecessary. That's why it's the body's backup plan. Can it have certain benefits if done in a certain way? Maybe. But yah, anyone that wants to try it can and should. Which is what I said. It's just not how I personally would choose to live.

    Well, we'd actually die without ketones, winter is coming. Cheers
  • sollyn23l2
    sollyn23l2 Posts: 1,788 Member
    edited June 2023
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    DFW_Tom wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    Keto is simply another tool to reach a calorie deficit, so it's a bit of a moot question. If you enjoy eating lots of fat (75% of your calories) and no grains, potatos, or fruit (except the occassional berry), and can foresee doing that for the rest of your life, go for it. But that's a pretty unfortunate way to live, in my mind. And it's completely unecessary.

    OP, you didn't tell us why you have built up so much visceral fat that you are considering a keto meal plan. As others have pointed out, keto is a tool. A tool that many have used (including me) to over come medical issues that allowed them to lose fat for the first time in their adult life. I can not agree that it is unnecessary for you, or anyone else, simply because it is not for everyone - but it might be for some. Using a keto meal plan to lose weight quickly is not a good idea. It can be unhealthy and most people will gain the weight back quickly as soon as they go back to eating the way they use to. Used as a tool to back off of pre-diabetes or to overcome insulin resistance, or even to treat some brain malfunctions, has been very rewarding for a lot of people. Even necessary for some in my opinion.

    I quoted @sollyn23l2 because I strongly disagree with that criticism of keto. Consuming ultra low carbohydrates forever is something very few people need to do. That is not to say it isn't a valid option to consider if it helps you to be healthier long term. Just be prepared for the same type of undeserved vitriol that saying things like "sugar is addictive" or "CICO isn't enough" draw.

    Keto is unnecessary. That's why it's the body's backup plan. Can it have certain benefits if done in a certain way? Maybe. But yah, anyone that wants to try it can and should. Which is what I said. It's just not how I personally would choose to live.

    Well, we'd actually die without ketones, winter is coming. Cheers


    Did you know that some alaska natives actually appear to have a genetic adaptation that prevents their body from going into chronic ketosis when fasting? Just an interesting thought.

    https://escholarship.org/content/qt8wz5h9kp/qt8wz5h9kp.pdf?t=q3sb1q
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,265 Member
    edited June 2023
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    DFW_Tom wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    Keto is simply another tool to reach a calorie deficit, so it's a bit of a moot question. If you enjoy eating lots of fat (75% of your calories) and no grains, potatos, or fruit (except the occassional berry), and can foresee doing that for the rest of your life, go for it. But that's a pretty unfortunate way to live, in my mind. And it's completely unecessary.

    OP, you didn't tell us why you have built up so much visceral fat that you are considering a keto meal plan. As others have pointed out, keto is a tool. A tool that many have used (including me) to over come medical issues that allowed them to lose fat for the first time in their adult life. I can not agree that it is unnecessary for you, or anyone else, simply because it is not for everyone - but it might be for some. Using a keto meal plan to lose weight quickly is not a good idea. It can be unhealthy and most people will gain the weight back quickly as soon as they go back to eating the way they use to. Used as a tool to back off of pre-diabetes or to overcome insulin resistance, or even to treat some brain malfunctions, has been very rewarding for a lot of people. Even necessary for some in my opinion.

    I quoted @sollyn23l2 because I strongly disagree with that criticism of keto. Consuming ultra low carbohydrates forever is something very few people need to do. That is not to say it isn't a valid option to consider if it helps you to be healthier long term. Just be prepared for the same type of undeserved vitriol that saying things like "sugar is addictive" or "CICO isn't enough" draw.

    Keto is unnecessary. That's why it's the body's backup plan. Can it have certain benefits if done in a certain way? Maybe. But yah, anyone that wants to try it can and should. Which is what I said. It's just not how I personally would choose to live.

    Well, we'd actually die without ketones, winter is coming. Cheers


    Did you know that some alaska natives actually appear to have a genetic adaptation that prevents their body from going into chronic ketosis when fasting? Just an interesting thought.

    https://escholarship.org/content/qt8wz5h9kp/qt8wz5h9kp.pdf?t=q3sb1q

    During my 12 years of low carb, 2 of those years where on a ketogenic diet and there were more days that I can remember where ketones didn't show up in my blood. This link you provided are referring to blood drawn from the last century from a few people and some individuals were consuming a lot of carbs. People that consume carnivore also show that ketones don't always show up in their blood.

    Basically to access whether some people "appear" to have a genetic "adaption" to not go into chronic ketosis would need to be for extended periods of time where everything was controlled but what we have here are a few blood samples from a century ago in an extremely small sample size. Of course chronic is characterized by always being there. Anyway, this paper was speculative by the authors and not a scientific experiment, basically a hypothesis. cheers.
  • sollyn23l2
    sollyn23l2 Posts: 1,788 Member
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    DFW_Tom wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    Keto is simply another tool to reach a calorie deficit, so it's a bit of a moot question. If you enjoy eating lots of fat (75% of your calories) and no grains, potatos, or fruit (except the occassional berry), and can foresee doing that for the rest of your life, go for it. But that's a pretty unfortunate way to live, in my mind. And it's completely unecessary.

    OP, you didn't tell us why you have built up so much visceral fat that you are considering a keto meal plan. As others have pointed out, keto is a tool. A tool that many have used (including me) to over come medical issues that allowed them to lose fat for the first time in their adult life. I can not agree that it is unnecessary for you, or anyone else, simply because it is not for everyone - but it might be for some. Using a keto meal plan to lose weight quickly is not a good idea. It can be unhealthy and most people will gain the weight back quickly as soon as they go back to eating the way they use to. Used as a tool to back off of pre-diabetes or to overcome insulin resistance, or even to treat some brain malfunctions, has been very rewarding for a lot of people. Even necessary for some in my opinion.

    I quoted @sollyn23l2 because I strongly disagree with that criticism of keto. Consuming ultra low carbohydrates forever is something very few people need to do. That is not to say it isn't a valid option to consider if it helps you to be healthier long term. Just be prepared for the same type of undeserved vitriol that saying things like "sugar is addictive" or "CICO isn't enough" draw.

    Keto is unnecessary. That's why it's the body's backup plan. Can it have certain benefits if done in a certain way? Maybe. But yah, anyone that wants to try it can and should. Which is what I said. It's just not how I personally would choose to live.

    Well, we'd actually die without ketones, winter is coming. Cheers


    Did you know that some alaska natives actually appear to have a genetic adaptation that prevents their body from going into chronic ketosis when fasting? Just an interesting thought.

    https://escholarship.org/content/qt8wz5h9kp/qt8wz5h9kp.pdf?t=q3sb1q

    During my 12 years of low carb, 2 of those years where on a ketogenic diet and there were more days that I can remember where ketones didn't show up in my blood. This link you provided are referring to blood drawn from the last century from a few people and some individuals were consuming a lot of carbs. People that consume carnivore also show that ketones don't always show up in their blood.

    Basically to access whether some people "appear" to have a genetic "adaption" to not go into chronic ketosis would need to be for extended periods of time where everything was controlled but what we have here are a few blood samples from a century ago in an extremely small sample size. Of course chronic is characterized by always being there. Anyway, this paper was speculative by the authors and not a scientific experiment, basically a hypothesis. cheers.

    Yep, that's why I didn't say it proves it. Just interesting. People doing a keto diet doesn't bother me, everyone can and should eat as they see fit. I just see too many proponents who act like it's a cure-all. It's really just another way of eating for people who feel they do better without carbs. Which is fine.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,265 Member
    edited June 2023
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    DFW_Tom wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    Keto is simply another tool to reach a calorie deficit, so it's a bit of a moot question. If you enjoy eating lots of fat (75% of your calories) and no grains, potatos, or fruit (except the occassional berry), and can foresee doing that for the rest of your life, go for it. But that's a pretty unfortunate way to live, in my mind. And it's completely unecessary.

    OP, you didn't tell us why you have built up so much visceral fat that you are considering a keto meal plan. As others have pointed out, keto is a tool. A tool that many have used (including me) to over come medical issues that allowed them to lose fat for the first time in their adult life. I can not agree that it is unnecessary for you, or anyone else, simply because it is not for everyone - but it might be for some. Using a keto meal plan to lose weight quickly is not a good idea. It can be unhealthy and most people will gain the weight back quickly as soon as they go back to eating the way they use to. Used as a tool to back off of pre-diabetes or to overcome insulin resistance, or even to treat some brain malfunctions, has been very rewarding for a lot of people. Even necessary for some in my opinion.

    I quoted @sollyn23l2 because I strongly disagree with that criticism of keto. Consuming ultra low carbohydrates forever is something very few people need to do. That is not to say it isn't a valid option to consider if it helps you to be healthier long term. Just be prepared for the same type of undeserved vitriol that saying things like "sugar is addictive" or "CICO isn't enough" draw.

    Keto is unnecessary. That's why it's the body's backup plan. Can it have certain benefits if done in a certain way? Maybe. But yah, anyone that wants to try it can and should. Which is what I said. It's just not how I personally would choose to live.

    Well, we'd actually die without ketones, winter is coming. Cheers


    Did you know that some alaska natives actually appear to have a genetic adaptation that prevents their body from going into chronic ketosis when fasting? Just an interesting thought.

    https://escholarship.org/content/qt8wz5h9kp/qt8wz5h9kp.pdf?t=q3sb1q

    During my 12 years of low carb, 2 of those years where on a ketogenic diet and there were more days that I can remember where ketones didn't show up in my blood. This link you provided are referring to blood drawn from the last century from a few people and some individuals were consuming a lot of carbs. People that consume carnivore also show that ketones don't always show up in their blood.

    Basically to access whether some people "appear" to have a genetic "adaption" to not go into chronic ketosis would need to be for extended periods of time where everything was controlled but what we have here are a few blood samples from a century ago in an extremely small sample size. Of course chronic is characterized by always being there. Anyway, this paper was speculative by the authors and not a scientific experiment, basically a hypothesis. cheers.

    Yep, that's why I didn't say it proves it. Just interesting. People doing a keto diet doesn't bother me, everyone can and should eat as they see fit. I just see too many proponents who act like it's a cure-all. It's really just another way of eating for people who feel they do better without carbs. Which is fine.

    I get that you don't see any value in it but that's basically because you don't know much about it other than it's some kind of diet that helps people lose weight, but that's the way the vast majority of people view it as well, so it's basically not unusual, just not a lot of science going on. The vast majority of literature on the ketogenic diet is on the metabolic characteristics and how that effects our physiology and health, which was explained to some degree by Tom, but you glazed over that and relied on what is called confirmation bias which always looks to support an existing opinion. Researching data that conflicts with other data, is the work of actual science, where new data conflicts with the current and a new hypothesis emerges, rinse and repeat, you might want to try that sometime. Cheers
  • sollyn23l2
    sollyn23l2 Posts: 1,788 Member
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    DFW_Tom wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    Keto is simply another tool to reach a calorie deficit, so it's a bit of a moot question. If you enjoy eating lots of fat (75% of your calories) and no grains, potatos, or fruit (except the occassional berry), and can foresee doing that for the rest of your life, go for it. But that's a pretty unfortunate way to live, in my mind. And it's completely unecessary.

    OP, you didn't tell us why you have built up so much visceral fat that you are considering a keto meal plan. As others have pointed out, keto is a tool. A tool that many have used (including me) to over come medical issues that allowed them to lose fat for the first time in their adult life. I can not agree that it is unnecessary for you, or anyone else, simply because it is not for everyone - but it might be for some. Using a keto meal plan to lose weight quickly is not a good idea. It can be unhealthy and most people will gain the weight back quickly as soon as they go back to eating the way they use to. Used as a tool to back off of pre-diabetes or to overcome insulin resistance, or even to treat some brain malfunctions, has been very rewarding for a lot of people. Even necessary for some in my opinion.

    I quoted @sollyn23l2 because I strongly disagree with that criticism of keto. Consuming ultra low carbohydrates forever is something very few people need to do. That is not to say it isn't a valid option to consider if it helps you to be healthier long term. Just be prepared for the same type of undeserved vitriol that saying things like "sugar is addictive" or "CICO isn't enough" draw.

    Keto is unnecessary. That's why it's the body's backup plan. Can it have certain benefits if done in a certain way? Maybe. But yah, anyone that wants to try it can and should. Which is what I said. It's just not how I personally would choose to live.

    Well, we'd actually die without ketones, winter is coming. Cheers


    Did you know that some alaska natives actually appear to have a genetic adaptation that prevents their body from going into chronic ketosis when fasting? Just an interesting thought.

    https://escholarship.org/content/qt8wz5h9kp/qt8wz5h9kp.pdf?t=q3sb1q

    During my 12 years of low carb, 2 of those years where on a ketogenic diet and there were more days that I can remember where ketones didn't show up in my blood. This link you provided are referring to blood drawn from the last century from a few people and some individuals were consuming a lot of carbs. People that consume carnivore also show that ketones don't always show up in their blood.

    Basically to access whether some people "appear" to have a genetic "adaption" to not go into chronic ketosis would need to be for extended periods of time where everything was controlled but what we have here are a few blood samples from a century ago in an extremely small sample size. Of course chronic is characterized by always being there. Anyway, this paper was speculative by the authors and not a scientific experiment, basically a hypothesis. cheers.

    Yep, that's why I didn't say it proves it. Just interesting. People doing a keto diet doesn't bother me, everyone can and should eat as they see fit. I just see too many proponents who act like it's a cure-all. It's really just another way of eating for people who feel they do better without carbs. Which is fine.

    I get that you don't see any value in it but that's basically because you don't know much about it other than it's some kind of diet that helps people lose weight, but that's the way the vast majority of people view it as well, so it's basically not unusual, just not a lot of science going on. The vast majority of literature on the ketogenic diet is on the metabolic characteristics and how that effects our physiology and health, which was explained to some degree by Tom, but you glazed over that and relied on what is called confirmation bias which always looks to support an existing opinion. Researching data that's incomplete conflict of ones opinion, is the work of actual science, where new data conflicts with the current and a new hypothesis emerges, rinse and repeat, you might want to try that sometime. Cheers

    I know it's a diet meant to force your body into a state of ketosis, which makes your body produce ketones. This is an alternate fuel source for the brain to be able to keep running when there is no available glucose or glycogen. Is it necessary to be in chronic ketosis? No. I've seen a number of Tom's posts and commonly disagree with him. You're also biased towards keto because you feel you have personally benefitted from it. Which is fine. As I said, the human body is adaptable and everyone can eat as they see fit.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,265 Member
    edited June 2023
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    DFW_Tom wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    Keto is simply another tool to reach a calorie deficit, so it's a bit of a moot question. If you enjoy eating lots of fat (75% of your calories) and no grains, potatos, or fruit (except the occassional berry), and can foresee doing that for the rest of your life, go for it. But that's a pretty unfortunate way to live, in my mind. And it's completely unecessary.

    OP, you didn't tell us why you have built up so much visceral fat that you are considering a keto meal plan. As others have pointed out, keto is a tool. A tool that many have used (including me) to over come medical issues that allowed them to lose fat for the first time in their adult life. I can not agree that it is unnecessary for you, or anyone else, simply because it is not for everyone - but it might be for some. Using a keto meal plan to lose weight quickly is not a good idea. It can be unhealthy and most people will gain the weight back quickly as soon as they go back to eating the way they use to. Used as a tool to back off of pre-diabetes or to overcome insulin resistance, or even to treat some brain malfunctions, has been very rewarding for a lot of people. Even necessary for some in my opinion.

    I quoted @sollyn23l2 because I strongly disagree with that criticism of keto. Consuming ultra low carbohydrates forever is something very few people need to do. That is not to say it isn't a valid option to consider if it helps you to be healthier long term. Just be prepared for the same type of undeserved vitriol that saying things like "sugar is addictive" or "CICO isn't enough" draw.

    Keto is unnecessary. That's why it's the body's backup plan. Can it have certain benefits if done in a certain way? Maybe. But yah, anyone that wants to try it can and should. Which is what I said. It's just not how I personally would choose to live.

    Well, we'd actually die without ketones, winter is coming. Cheers


    Did you know that some alaska natives actually appear to have a genetic adaptation that prevents their body from going into chronic ketosis when fasting? Just an interesting thought.

    https://escholarship.org/content/qt8wz5h9kp/qt8wz5h9kp.pdf?t=q3sb1q

    During my 12 years of low carb, 2 of those years where on a ketogenic diet and there were more days that I can remember where ketones didn't show up in my blood. This link you provided are referring to blood drawn from the last century from a few people and some individuals were consuming a lot of carbs. People that consume carnivore also show that ketones don't always show up in their blood.

    Basically to access whether some people "appear" to have a genetic "adaption" to not go into chronic ketosis would need to be for extended periods of time where everything was controlled but what we have here are a few blood samples from a century ago in an extremely small sample size. Of course chronic is characterized by always being there. Anyway, this paper was speculative by the authors and not a scientific experiment, basically a hypothesis. cheers.

    Yep, that's why I didn't say it proves it. Just interesting. People doing a keto diet doesn't bother me, everyone can and should eat as they see fit. I just see too many proponents who act like it's a cure-all. It's really just another way of eating for people who feel they do better without carbs. Which is fine.

    I get that you don't see any value in it but that's basically because you don't know much about it other than it's some kind of diet that helps people lose weight, but that's the way the vast majority of people view it as well, so it's basically not unusual, just not a lot of science going on. The vast majority of literature on the ketogenic diet is on the metabolic characteristics and how that effects our physiology and health, which was explained to some degree by Tom, but you glazed over that and relied on what is called confirmation bias which always looks to support an existing opinion. Researching data that's incomplete conflict of ones opinion, is the work of actual science, where new data conflicts with the current and a new hypothesis emerges, rinse and repeat, you might want to try that sometime. Cheers

    I know it's a diet meant to force your body into a state of ketosis, which makes your body produce ketones. This is an alternate fuel source for the brain to be able to keep running when there is no available glucose or glycogen. Is it necessary to be in chronic ketosis? No. I've seen a number of Tom's posts and commonly disagree with him. You're also biased towards keto because you feel you have personally benefitted from it. Which is fine. As I said, the human body is adaptable and everyone can eat as they see fit.

    I don't support a ketogenic diet as a dietary strategy, and I've said as much many times. What your seeing is me supporting an argument with people that like yourself say it has no value, where it obviously does for some people and whether it has any value to me is beside the point.

    EDIT: Also ketones are produced by the body all day long by everyone, however they are increased during times of fasting, starvation and in the absence of carbohydrates and considering some of our ancestors survived times when winter constituted most of the year I would categorize that time period as a critical time for chronic levels. Oh, and the body never runs out of glucose. Gluconeogenesis happens when the liver cleaves the glycerol molecule from the fatty acid chain and converts it into glucose and it's the main reason why carbohydrates are not an essential nutrient, so the body is getting all the glucose it needs when in ketosis. Cheers
  • sollyn23l2
    sollyn23l2 Posts: 1,788 Member
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    DFW_Tom wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    Keto is simply another tool to reach a calorie deficit, so it's a bit of a moot question. If you enjoy eating lots of fat (75% of your calories) and no grains, potatos, or fruit (except the occassional berry), and can foresee doing that for the rest of your life, go for it. But that's a pretty unfortunate way to live, in my mind. And it's completely unecessary.

    OP, you didn't tell us why you have built up so much visceral fat that you are considering a keto meal plan. As others have pointed out, keto is a tool. A tool that many have used (including me) to over come medical issues that allowed them to lose fat for the first time in their adult life. I can not agree that it is unnecessary for you, or anyone else, simply because it is not for everyone - but it might be for some. Using a keto meal plan to lose weight quickly is not a good idea. It can be unhealthy and most people will gain the weight back quickly as soon as they go back to eating the way they use to. Used as a tool to back off of pre-diabetes or to overcome insulin resistance, or even to treat some brain malfunctions, has been very rewarding for a lot of people. Even necessary for some in my opinion.

    I quoted @sollyn23l2 because I strongly disagree with that criticism of keto. Consuming ultra low carbohydrates forever is something very few people need to do. That is not to say it isn't a valid option to consider if it helps you to be healthier long term. Just be prepared for the same type of undeserved vitriol that saying things like "sugar is addictive" or "CICO isn't enough" draw.

    Keto is unnecessary. That's why it's the body's backup plan. Can it have certain benefits if done in a certain way? Maybe. But yah, anyone that wants to try it can and should. Which is what I said. It's just not how I personally would choose to live.

    Well, we'd actually die without ketones, winter is coming. Cheers


    Did you know that some alaska natives actually appear to have a genetic adaptation that prevents their body from going into chronic ketosis when fasting? Just an interesting thought.

    https://escholarship.org/content/qt8wz5h9kp/qt8wz5h9kp.pdf?t=q3sb1q

    During my 12 years of low carb, 2 of those years where on a ketogenic diet and there were more days that I can remember where ketones didn't show up in my blood. This link you provided are referring to blood drawn from the last century from a few people and some individuals were consuming a lot of carbs. People that consume carnivore also show that ketones don't always show up in their blood.

    Basically to access whether some people "appear" to have a genetic "adaption" to not go into chronic ketosis would need to be for extended periods of time where everything was controlled but what we have here are a few blood samples from a century ago in an extremely small sample size. Of course chronic is characterized by always being there. Anyway, this paper was speculative by the authors and not a scientific experiment, basically a hypothesis. cheers.

    Yep, that's why I didn't say it proves it. Just interesting. People doing a keto diet doesn't bother me, everyone can and should eat as they see fit. I just see too many proponents who act like it's a cure-all. It's really just another way of eating for people who feel they do better without carbs. Which is fine.

    I get that you don't see any value in it but that's basically because you don't know much about it other than it's some kind of diet that helps people lose weight, but that's the way the vast majority of people view it as well, so it's basically not unusual, just not a lot of science going on. The vast majority of literature on the ketogenic diet is on the metabolic characteristics and how that effects our physiology and health, which was explained to some degree by Tom, but you glazed over that and relied on what is called confirmation bias which always looks to support an existing opinion. Researching data that's incomplete conflict of ones opinion, is the work of actual science, where new data conflicts with the current and a new hypothesis emerges, rinse and repeat, you might want to try that sometime. Cheers

    I know it's a diet meant to force your body into a state of ketosis, which makes your body produce ketones. This is an alternate fuel source for the brain to be able to keep running when there is no available glucose or glycogen. Is it necessary to be in chronic ketosis? No. I've seen a number of Tom's posts and commonly disagree with him. You're also biased towards keto because you feel you have personally benefitted from it. Which is fine. As I said, the human body is adaptable and everyone can eat as they see fit.

    I don't support a ketogenic diet as a dietary strategy, and I've said as much many times. What your seeing is me supporting an argument with people that like yourself say it has no value, where it obviously does for some people and whether it has any value to me is beside the point.

    EDIT: Also ketones are produced by the body all day long by everyone, however they are increased during times of fasting, starvation and in the absence of carbohydrates and considering some of our ancestors survived times when winter constituted most of the year I would categorize that time period as a critical time for chronic levels. Oh, and the body never runs out of glucose. Gluconeogenesis happens when the liver cleaves the glycerol molecule from the fatty acid chain and converts it into glucose and it's the main reason why carbohydrates are not an essential nutrient, so the body is getting all the glucose it needs when in ketosis. Cheers

    I get it, honestly, we just have different opinions. Honestly, I like and respect you and think you have a lot of really great information. I'm just providing a counterpoint.
  • 12Sarah2015
    12Sarah2015 Posts: 1,117 Member
    My mums lost 21kg on the keto diet, and she has never lost weight before, so it works. She doesn’t count calories. But I don’t think I could do such as strict diet so I opt for no rice and store-bought bread (I make my own). I have two eggs for brekkie, salad and protein for lunch (no salad dressing), a piece of fruit for afternoon tea and eat whatever I want for dinner, 1200 calories. Do what works for you
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,986 Member
    12Sarah2015 wrote: »
    My mums lost 21kg on the keto diet, and she has never lost weight before, so it works. She doesn’t count calories. But I don’t think I could do such as strict diet so I opt for no rice and store-bought bread (I make my own). I have two eggs for brekkie, salad and protein for lunch (no salad dressing), a piece of fruit for afternoon tea and eat whatever I want for dinner, 1200 calories. Do what works for you

    Keto can work if a high fat diet works for you. If I'd eat keto I would gain weight as fat doesn't satiate me at all. I need carbs. But yeah, some people feel full on this, and some even lose weight without trying because they feel so full. But it's not universal.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,265 Member
    edited June 2023
    yirara wrote: »
    12Sarah2015 wrote: »
    My mums lost 21kg on the keto diet, and she has never lost weight before, so it works. She doesn’t count calories. But I don’t think I could do such as strict diet so I opt for no rice and store-bought bread (I make my own). I have two eggs for brekkie, salad and protein for lunch (no salad dressing), a piece of fruit for afternoon tea and eat whatever I want for dinner, 1200 calories. Do what works for you

    Keto can work if a high fat diet works for you. If I'd eat keto I would gain weight as fat doesn't satiate me at all. I need carbs. But yeah, some people feel full on this, and some even lose weight without trying because they feel so full. But it's not universal.

    Yeah feeling full is pretty well universal on a keto diet but there's definitely the odd person that isn't. It's not the fat that makes people feel full per se but a combination of factors and fat is also the least satiating macro anyway. Meat (protein) is satiating and ketones inhibiting the production of ghrelin a main hunger hormone produced in the gut and the basic effect a lower carb diet has on other hormones as well, like leptin. I do agree with you though, adding a little fat to what is an otherwise pretty well normal diet where carbs are in the 45-55% range isn't really doing much for people feeling full, and it never did for me either when I use to eat in that range.
  • rileysowner
    rileysowner Posts: 8,336 Member
    neanderthin wrote: »
    yirara wrote: »
    12Sarah2015 wrote: »
    My mums lost 21kg on the keto diet, and she has never lost weight before, so it works. She doesn’t count calories. But I don’t think I could do such as strict diet so I opt for no rice and store-bought bread (I make my own). I have two eggs for brekkie, salad and protein for lunch (no salad dressing), a piece of fruit for afternoon tea and eat whatever I want for dinner, 1200 calories. Do what works for you

    Keto can work if a high fat diet works for you. If I'd eat keto I would gain weight as fat doesn't satiate me at all. I need carbs. But yeah, some people feel full on this, and some even lose weight without trying because they feel so full. But it's not universal.

    Yeah feeling full is pretty well universal on a keto diet but there's definitely the odd person that isn't. It's not the fat that makes people feel full per se but a combination of factors and fat is also the least satiating macro anyway. Meat (protein) is satiating and ketones inhibiting the production of ghrelin a main hunger hormone produced in the gut and the basic effect a lower carb diet has on other hormones as well, like leptin. I do agree with you though, adding a little fat to what is an otherwise pretty well normal diet where carbs are in the 45-55% range isn't really doing much for people feeling full, and it never did for me either when I use to eat in that range.

    I keep seeing that fat is the least satiating macro, yet while I would agree in terms of satiation by calorie that might be the case, frankly, for me going high fat made all the difference for satiety. I had done high fibre with lots of whole food veggies with moderate protein and low fat before. Yes, I lost weight, a lot of it in fact, but I when I came on here and saw people complaining they couldn't eat enough calories to meet their 1200 calorie goal I never understood it. Other than carefully measuring my food and logging my calories I would shoot over my goal that was far above 1200 with no issue. I was never really full to the point I thought "how am I ever going to eat all the calories I need to", and if I was I was not full within an hour or so. I did keto to deal with specific health issues, so I am extremely low carb, moderate protein, and high fat. Now I struggle to get to my calorie goal pretty much every day. I am full after a meal and stay full for hours. I am sure if I ate fast I could go really high in calories from fat, but I would be uncomfortably full and remain full for a long time. Since logging it something I have been doing for a long time now, I just log things, eat an appropriate size meal of the keto macro proportions, and even if I could eat more once I have finished my serving within minutes I feel quite full. The only change is my macros from high carb/low far to extremely low carb/high fat. Maybe I am an outlier.

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