Counting calories so insane !
Replies
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Instead of ad hominem attacks why not argue why hyperpalatable foods don't have this effect that I suggest they do on human physiology.3
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I think all that needs to be added to the post you quoted is,You say this as if it’s a fact and this WILL happen. This is a scare tactic that gets increasingly old to me. If this is your experience, please, just say that. And, it’s possible you don’t need to change your food, but potentially need psychotherapy due to your fear of sugar and insulin.
For *me* allowing a variety of foods, especially the ones you demonize, has prevented more eating disorders than created.
"there's really no good way to get around this, at a population level, sans the removal of these types of foods."
At an individual level, I agree with you. Clearly at a population level, this is a bigger issue.1 -
neanderthin wrote: »Instead of ad hominem attacks why not argue why hyperpalatable foods don't have this effect that I suggest they do on human physiology.
You’re saying highly palatable foods, what, make you addicted? They have yet to prove humans are addicted to sugar despite the numerous tests. Do we like food that tastes good? Yes.
Don’t make it more complicated than necessary. If you are going to use hormones as an excuse for controlling our decisions then a lot of women who have been attacked will be pretty upset with your line of thinking. Bodies have hormones in conjunction with a multitude of other functions. Basic, normal, hormones are not the enemy. If you want to cut out carbs/sugar, be my guest. But quit implying to everyone that it’s the answer because, as you imply, we are impervious to the hormones that react to certain macros.
You can argue on this day in and day out, as you do, I said what I said. It gets old and it’s not helpful to fear monger on something that you choose to do for yourself. Just say that.5 -
neanderthin wrote: »Instead of ad hominem attacks why not argue why hyperpalatable foods don't have this effect that I suggest they do on human physiology.
You’re saying highly palatable foods, what, make you addicted? They have yet to prove humans are addicted to sugar despite the numerous tests. Do we like food that tastes good? Yes.
Don’t make it more complicated than necessary. If you are going to use hormones as an excuse for controlling our decisions then a lot of women who have been attacked will be pretty upset with your line of thinking. Bodies have hormones in conjunction with a multitude of other functions. Basic, normal, hormones are not the enemy. If you want to cut out carbs/sugar, be my guest. But quit implying for everyone that it’s the answer because, as you imply, we are impervious to the hormones that react to certain macros.
I'm going to requote what he said because it seems to me like you are reading something into it that is not there:I don't think there's any easy answers kshama2001. When your offered or introduced to hyperpalatable food choices it becomes difficult to resist because they stimulate the brain’s reward system, which creates feelings of pleasure and satisfaction which may affect the ability to control food intake and cravings and this is mostly due to food availability, cost, convenience, advertising and peer pressure. Basically they've been engineered to be this way and rely heavily on human physiology for this effect. They modify the release of hormones that regulate hunger, stress, and metabolism and there's really no good way to get around this sans the removal of these types of foods.
I'm female and didn't interpret the mention of hormones as female hormones. I assumed he was talking about hormones like ghrelin and cortisol.
@neanderthin didn't mention addiction.
Have you read "Salt, Sugar, Fat" by Michael Moss? Whether or not food can in fact be scientifically classified as "addictive," making it in practice difficult to put down is the goal of some food manufacturers, and the industry was not at all shy of using the word "addictive" as a desirable trait in their products.
https://www.amazon.com/Salt-Sugar-Fat-Giants-Hooked/dp/0812982193
"...Featuring examples from Kraft, Coca-Cola, Lunchables, Frito-Lay, Nestlé, Oreos, Capri Sun, and many more, Moss’s explosive, empowering narrative is grounded in meticulous, eye-opening research. He takes us into labs where scientists calculate the “bliss point” of sugary beverages, unearths marketing techniques taken straight from tobacco company playbooks, and talks to concerned insiders who make startling confessions."4 -
Now your constructing a bunch of logical fallacies. Nowhere did I say addicted, and I've repeatedly said removing UPF with whole foods is a better course of action. My particular medical situation I've said that a ketogenic diet works for me but I've never said it's the only way and everyone should or we're all doomed.3
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@kshama2001 The issue is how he consistently says we need to remove these foods.
They modify the release of hormones that regulate hunger, stress, and metabolism and there's really no good way to get around this sans the removal of these types of foods.
We don’t need to remove “these types of foods”. This is his holy grail and that’s fine, but telling people it’s the only way to regulate hunger, stress, and metabolism is by living a more keto lifestyle is a belief and not an answer. We can do the same thing having a balanced diet. Constantly demonizing sugar, carbs, the process of insulin, is what I personally get tired of reading. I enjoy many of his responses other than these ones. I think creating fear does more harm than good.
Also, I wasn’t interpreting it as female hormones, I knew what he meant. I just made an example of how we can’t blame hormones for everything.6 -
@kshama2001 The issue is how he consistently says we need to remove these foods.
They modify the release of hormones that regulate hunger, stress, and metabolism and there's really no good way to get around this sans the removal of these types of foods.
We don’t need to remove “these types of foods”. This is his holy grail and that’s fine, but telling people it’s the only way to regulate hunger, stress, and metabolism is by living a more keto lifestyle is a belief and not an answer. We can do the same thing having a balanced diet. Constantly demonizing sugar, carbs, the process of insulin, is what I personally get tired of reading. I enjoy many of his responses other than these ones. I think creating fear does more harm than good.
Also, I wasn’t interpreting it as female hormones, I knew what he meant. I just made an example of how we can’t blame hormones for everything.
Your taking this out of context. It's in reference to the population that are obese, have diabetes and people who have insulin resistance. The majority and actually over 70% of the population fall into this category with half the population that actually get tested have IR, so yeah, refined carbs and sugar are a big concern as it relates to their insulin levels. This isn't some kind of conspiracy theory, this has been well known for decades. I'm not sure why knowing something that is basically common knowledge in nutrition you would then call it creating fear and is doing more harm than good.4 -
Yeah, ddsb, this isn't a conspiracy theory or fearmongering, it's a known fact. You okay?2
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Huh?
Good tasting food has the propensity to be overeaten.
Grandma's took time and *effort* to make and she couldn't afford the time, effort, and money everyday.
Door dash, McD, Sonic, pizza pasta and Twinkies and Cheetos change all that and we can light up our little light bulbs.
Solution: nuke door dash, mcD, pizza pasta and Twinkies and ...
Solution: stop eating them every day (or even not even every 5th day) eat your veggies and even more "veggies"* and move more.
Neither is universal.
Some may APPEAR to WORK better
But only the ones that work for YOU for YEARS will make a real difference.
It is the CALORIES stupid. Period. Full stop.
How you manage the calories is up to you.
Some ways will work and some won't.
*My* truth is that as long as I was looking for a magic way prompted by sheets and plans from doctors, internets, and what have you emails and magazines NOTHING worked
Because *I* had to find my own way and learn to both follow it and learn how to adjust.
And as long as there was virtue signaling as opposed to needs (energy, base nutritional components, understanding of trade offs re nutrition and light bulbs and energy needs), as long as it didn't come to hard core trading and substitutions that I was personally willing to make and continue to make nothing worked for more than a few fleeing months.
And let me throw in not overdoing things, i.e. *relative* moderation and light touch as opposed to sledgehammer reacting.
So maybe something is marginally more advantageous IF you can implement it.
Doesn't matter one lick if it doesn't work for YOU
You do you boo!
(Me too!🤣)
*"Veggies" = nutrient rich items!
Also: nothing wrong with proposing to boo what worked for me or you so that boo can take it into consideration and do them. But I think the caveat of how long of a timeframe they will have to do them to find success should be emphasized way more than it is4 -
neanderthin wrote: »@kshama2001 The issue is how he consistently says we need to remove these foods.
They modify the release of hormones that regulate hunger, stress, and metabolism and there's really no good way to get around this sans the removal of these types of foods.
We don’t need to remove “these types of foods”. This is his holy grail and that’s fine, but telling people it’s the only way to regulate hunger, stress, and metabolism is by living a more keto lifestyle is a belief and not an answer. We can do the same thing having a balanced diet. Constantly demonizing sugar, carbs, the process of insulin, is what I personally get tired of reading. I enjoy many of his responses other than these ones. I think creating fear does more harm than good.
Also, I wasn’t interpreting it as female hormones, I knew what he meant. I just made an example of how we can’t blame hormones for everything.
Your taking this out of context. It's in reference to the population that are obese, have diabetes and people who have insulin resistance. The majority and actually over 70% of the population fall into this category with half the population that actually get tested have IR, so yeah, refined carbs and sugar are a big concern as it relates to their insulin levels. This isn't some kind of conspiracy theory, this has been well known for decades. I'm not sure why knowing something that is basically common knowledge in nutrition you would then call it creating fear and is doing more harm than good.
If I took this out of context I didn’t see where you wrote that the advice was for that specific type of person only, in this, or many previous posts you have made. If that’s the case, then I would hope they knew they were an outlier and hopefully their doctor provided the resources. But I do agree, if someone has a medical condition, eat as directed.
For people wanting to lose weight, the media does a stellar job of creating fear of everything from fat, low-fat, sugar and carbs, to food timing. What *I* get tired of seeing is the constant flippant response to those who don’t have an actual medical condition, pushing to eat keto and the removal of normal everyday foods of any kind. Advocating for a diet that removes a large portion of a normal, everyday macro, can create serious food disorders or disordered thinking.
I am just trying to raise awareness (to the OP and others) that it’s important not to cut things out unless necessary, and sometimes doing the internal work of creating a better routine, habit, or relationship with food, is what is actually necessary.
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cmriverside wrote: »Yeah, ddsb, this isn't a conspiracy theory or fearmongering, it's a known fact. You okay?
I mean, I think so. Sometimes I don’t know if I’m having unusual Autistic sensitivity. I’m happy to look at my shortcomings. But, I also hope you can see where I’m coming from.7 -
@kshama2001 regarding your post, I actually have more questions than answers, but I feel like I’ve interrupted the OP’s post enough. I wish your question was another post because I think research to make things delicious is important but probably not as important as we make it. Maybe we can tackle that someday.1
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When your offered or introduced to hyperpalatable food choices
it becomes difficult to resist because they stimulate the brain’s reward system, which creates feelings of pleasure and satisfaction which may affect the ability to control food intake and cravings and this is mostly due to food availability, cost, convenience, advertising and peer pressure. Basically they've been engineered to be this way and rely heavily on human physiology for this effect. They modify the release of hormones that regulate hunger, stress, and metabolism and there's really no good way to get around this sans the removal of these types of foods.
You say this as if it’s a fact and this WILL happen. This is a scare tactic that gets increasingly old to me. If this is your experience, please, just say that. And, it’s possible you don’t need to change your food, but potentially need psychotherapy due to your fear of sugar and insulin.
For *me* allowing a variety of foods, especially the ones you demonize, has prevented more eating disorders than created.
💯 on point. Well said.3 -
cmriverside wrote: »Yeah, ddsb, this isn't a conspiracy theory or fearmongering, it's a known fact. You okay?
I mean, I think so. Sometimes I don’t know if I’m having unusual Autistic sensitivity. I’m happy to look at my shortcomings. But, I also hope you can see where I’m coming from.
Your response felt out of character to me as well.
I can get annoyed at any type of WOE – evangelism, whether it be keto through vegan, but I maintain that’s not what was going on in the post you quoted.
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@kshama2001 regarding your post, I actually have more questions than answers, but I feel like I’ve interrupted the OP’s post enough. I wish your question was another post because I think research to make things delicious is important but probably not as important as we make it. Maybe we can tackle that someday.
I think you’re talking about my “salt sugar fat“ post? I’ll see if I can bump an old discussion about that.
@lemurcat2 read it as well and had some good takes on it. Maybe she can find an old thread faster 😉1 -
I think this thread has made a logical progression:
OP: I want to try intuitive eating
Me: I can eat intuitively in the absence of hyper palatable foods
N: yes, these are the physiological and sociological reasons why hyper palatable foods are unhelpful, plus a population case study
D : Pushes back
More discussion.0 -
N : there's really no good way to get around this sans the removal of these types of foods.
False. Many of us learned/can learn how to eat HPF without elimination.
D : Cutting out entire food groups or forcing yourself to follow strict rules can end up doing more harm to your physical and mental health than good.
This is my point of contention. If you have a medical issue then your specific diet is recommended *for you*. If you don’t have a medical condition “sometimes doing the internal work of creating a better- routine, habit, relationship with food, is what is actually necessary”. Not eliminating foods altogether.
Yes, HPF are delicious and we want them. But they’re not the evil some claim them to be.
Apologies if my tone was insensitive. I can accept that and try better next time.
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Good for you, but clearly that ain't working at the population level, and I think it's obvious that's what he was talking about and it shouldn't really need to be spelled out. I mean, do you really believe that he was saying not a single person on the planet can escape ultra processed foods?N : there's really no good way to get around this sans the removal of these types of foods.
False. Many of us learned how to eat HPF without elimination.1 -
Retroguy2000 wrote: »
Good for you, but clearly that ain't working at the population level, and I think it's obvious that's what he was talking about and it shouldn't really need to be spelled out. I mean, do you really believe that he was saying not a single person on the planet can escape ultra processed foods?N : there's really no good way to get around this sans the removal of these types of foods.
False. Many of us learned how to eat HPF without elimination.
I can only respond to what he said.2
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