ISO Someone to Confirm my Math and Assumptions

neanderthin

tomcustombuilder wrote: »

Anecdotal responses on threads like these can often mislead someone trying to figure out what calorie amount to use and can cause a lot of confusion.

Between vastly varying NEAT, inaccurate weekly calorie counting/tracking, varying degrees of exercise intensity, etc, numbers will be all over the place.

Pick something that sounds reasonable, however the most foolproof method is eat/drink your normal diet for a week and track the calories.

If your weight has been consistent or at least very close to consistent the last month or so, that is your actual maintenance and you can work from there however it’s important to not vary your diet from the norm as some people will be conscious of having their diet under their microscope and inadvertently change some things

A week invested in that method can save a lot of time in the long run trying to figure things out.

Yep, this.

The human body is complex and the math and calculators can't capture the nuance of individual metabolic differences from one person to another. Things like genetics, hormones like cortisol and insulin, age, sex, sleep patterns, and stress levels, diet as well other health conditions like hypothyroidism or polycystic ovary syndrome, as well as the adaption to exercise. As Tom said, record what you eat as best you can and live your life for a while and from there make adjustments which I believe would reduce the number of posts that question their calorie accuracy. imo

ddsb1111

Tango_Bravado wrote: »

@ddsb1111 I have maintained 1800 cal/day for three weeks in two days, to be accurate as possible. I have had two days where I didn't log and accepted them as "cheat days" because I had to go out of town and didn't have foresight to prep travel meals. I didn't go absolutely crazy, I just didn't track and tried to eat somewhat healthily from the options available on the road.

For those three weeks I have been engaged in a fairly intensive weight lifting program. My scale has bounced between 224 and 222 for the entire time, never above and never below. I have been attributing that to water weight, losing fat, and gaining muscle to relatively even itself out. But that is just my guess from my rudimentary knowledge.

Okay, I see, thanks for the deets. When I got a trainer I too gained water weight. I’m relieved you know that’s just how it goes when your body’s recovering.

I’m a little surprised there hasn’t been at least a small loss on roughly 1800 calories, even with the 2 off days in 3 weeks. Like everyone says, you’ll have a clearer picture in weeks 4-6. Even though it sounds like your eyeballing has been close, you might be eating more than you think. I know, we never want to hear that because it’s hard enough as it is. Something to keep in mind if you see no weight loss soon.

Have you taken measurements by any chance? You may also be losing inches, and at the end of the day that’s what most of us want- to look and feel better. With your stats, I’m sure it won’t take much. GL!

Tango_Bravado

@ddsb1111 I actually had an appointment with a dietician yesterday. It was a follow up, so she measured my waist and noted I had lost just over an inch since just before Christmas. So I do think things are happening.

She also mentioned my 1800 and said if I am not seeing weight loss within another week or two to try increasing my cal by a couple hundred a day.

I have only just started, and as many people have said everyone is different so experimentation especially at this stage is the name of the game lol. I am going to keep that mind set.

tomcustombuilder

Tango_Bravado wrote: »

@ddsb1111
She also mentioned my 1800 and said if I am not seeing weight loss within another week or two to try increasing my cal by a couple hundred a day.

Get a new dietician or none at all.

Taking in more calories to lose fat never has and never will work.

Unless the added calories cause you to me more active calorie burning wise over and above the extra calories and then some you'll just start adding fat.

Retroguy2000

Tango_Bravado wrote: »

She also mentioned my 1800 and said if I am not seeing weight loss within another week or two to try increasing my cal by a couple hundred a day.

Yeah that is baffling. You aren't in a large deficit, and you're probably on more than 1800, and it's only been a few weeks. Had you been in a huge deficit for a long time then maybe she might be thinking your NEAT has dropped to compensate, but that's very unlikely based on everything you've said here.

sollyn23l2

tomcustombuilder wrote: »

Tango_Bravado wrote: »

@ddsb1111
She also mentioned my 1800 and said if I am not seeing weight loss within another week or two to try increasing my cal by a couple hundred a day.

Get a new dietician or none at all.

Taking in more calories to lose fat never has and never will work.

Unless the added calories cause you to me more active calorie burning wise over and above the extra calories and then some you'll just start adding fat.

Agreed. If you're not losing weight, then increasing calories isn't going to work. Most dieticians actually know next to nothing about weight loss, unless they happen to be a bariatric dietician. They're about eating "healthfully" not about losing weight.

tomcustombuilder

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

tomcustombuilder wrote: »

Tango_Bravado wrote: »

@ddsb1111
She also mentioned my 1800 and said if I am not seeing weight loss within another week or two to try increasing my cal by a couple hundred a day.

Get a new dietician or none at all.

Taking in more calories to lose fat never has and never will work.

Unless the added calories cause you to me more active calorie burning wise over and above the extra calories and then some you'll just start adding fat.

Agreed. If you're not losing weight, then increasing calories isn't going to work. Most dieticians actually know next to nothing about weight loss, unless they happen to be a bariatric dietician. They're about eating "healthfully" not about losing weight.

Right? And what really IS healthy? That term is so ambiguous.

Tango_Bravado

@tomcustombuilder @sollyn23l2 @Retroguy2000

I am military, so that dietitian is the one I get. I was honestly there for a separate issue which was mostly ignored by the dietitian, and instead was given a bunch of unsolicited advice on the diet stuff lol.

I assume the dietitian was referring to "starvation mode", which from what I have read online and here on the forums, wouldn't come into play unless I held this deficit for a really long time.

I am definitely a firm believer in CICO, and I also think I will start seeing more noticable results in the next few weeks since I am only just going into week four (in addition to the apparent inch I have lost on the waist).

My question, hypothetical as it may be, is what would I do if I just kept maintaining at 1800/day? I can't go much lower (and shouldn't need to, given the deficit already) and still be able to maintain the nutrients I need. I fully understand that miscounting is the number one reason for weight loss failure, but even if I was miscounting by 200/day I would still be in at least a 500/day deficit not including exercise. I really can't believe that I could miscount more than 200 cal. I am very meticulous, I weigh everything that isn't a single serving (at least until I notice there is only negligible difference, i.e. the protein powder). It is almost like a game, to see how accurate I can be on a daily basis.

If I continue to not notice any weight change, is it possible that my body is burning fat and building muscle at a mass equivalent rate?

sollyn23l2

Tango_Bravado wrote: »

@tomcustombuilder @sollyn23l2 @Retroguy2000

I am military, so that dietitian is the one I get. I was honestly there for a separate issue which was mostly ignored by the dietitian, and instead was given a bunch of unsolicited advice on the diet stuff lol.

I assume the dietitian was referring to "starvation mode", which from what I have read online and here on the forums, wouldn't come into play unless I held this deficit for a really long time.

I am definitely a firm believer in CICO, and I also think I will start seeing more noticable results in the next few weeks since I am only just going into week four (in addition to the apparent inch I have lost on the waist).

My question, hypothetical as it may be, is what would I do if I just kept maintaining at 1800/day? I can't go much lower (and shouldn't need to, given the deficit already) and still be able to maintain the nutrients I need. I fully understand that miscounting is the number one reason for weight loss failure, but even if I was miscounting by 200/day I would still be in at least a 500/day deficit not including exercise. I really can't believe that I could miscount more than 200 cal. I am very meticulous, I weigh everything that isn't a single serving (at least until I notice there is only negligible difference, i.e. the protein powder). It is almost like a game, to see how accurate I can be on a daily basis.

If I continue to not notice any weight change, is it possible that my body is burning fat and building muscle at a mass equivalent rate?

I agree, I think you will start seeing results as long as you're consistent (especially since you say you lost an inch already). Just focus on making sure you're as tight on your tracking as possible.

ddsb1111

@Tango_Bravado

First of all, congrats on the inch lost! That’s no small thing so you’re definitely doing something right.

As for increasing your cals, I agree with everyone else, it doesn’t make sense and increasing calories will cause weight gain unless you’re increasing your neat. I’m sure you don’t want to undo your hard work. You’re right, starvation mode is a myth, highly confused with thermodynamics, and not something you need to worry about.

Since you’re basically maintaining (on paper), losing inches, and started a rigorous lifting routine, time will tell what’s really happening here. Just keep pushing, checking your measurements, and watching the trend line.

Worst case scenario, you are eating more calories than necessary and will need to adjust how you eat slightly. Side note- just because you may need to reduce your calories doesn’t mean you need to starve. You may need to shift your ratios in terms of what you eat ie more low calorie food for volume eating in place of some fat and carbs perhaps. This is the personal part, and IMO, the fun part. You get to be your own personal experiment and figure out what your diet and lifestyle needs to be to reach your goals, keep you satiated, and make you happy.

Also, sorry the dietician didn’t listen to your other concerns. Hope you get a second opinion, or I suppose a first opinion, since it was ignored. Thanks for checking back.

tomcustombuilder

There is no starvation mode.

If you aren’t losing at X calories then X calories are your maintenance calories.

Your body doesn’t know numbers all that knows is if it’s giving energy to lose mass gain mass or maintain mass.

You’re 1800 cal more than likely are a lot higher than that when you figure a weekly average.

Some people may eat what they say a couple times a week And forget to log the higher days and it’s the average seven day calorie amount is what your true daily amount is

Retroguy2000

@Tango_Bravado

I would say give it some time. Track your data, i.e. your waist size, weight, and calories. As I said before, you may have some initial water weight gain from all the exercise, if that's a fairly recent addition.

If you are truly at 1800 or so at your size, and that's counting all drinks, "cheat" meals and days, etc., and you've checked the database entries you're using for frequent items are correct, then I'd suggest more zone 2 cardio, which could be as simple as walking more.

tomcustombuilder

Definitely over 1,800 daily average on a weekly basis.

AnnPT77

Tango_Bravado wrote: »

(snip)

If I continue to not notice any weight change, is it possible that my body is burning fat and building muscle at a mass equivalent rate?

Unfortunately, I think that's unlikely.

A couple of pounds a month of muscle mass gain would be a good result for a male under ideal conditions. Ideal conditions include (among other things) a calorie surplus (i.e., bulking, a little weight gain) and relative youth.

Under less than ideal conditions, it'd be reasonable to expect mass gain to be slower. Further, if you've just started strength training (or resumed it after a long hiatus), some period of strength gain through neuromuscular adaptation (better recruiting/utilizing existing muscle fibers) is likely to precede mass gain. Gaining muscle mass is "expensive", so our bodies need to be convinced it's needful, in a sense.

On the opposite side, half a pound a week is about the slowest satisfying, observable rate of fat loss, and it can take multiple weeks to show up on the bodyweight scale amongst normal daily water weight fluctuations of several pounds from one day to the next.

It's unusual, even improbable IMO, for any realistic rate of muscle mass gain to outpace or equal any satisfying rate of fat loss.

What is common - especially 3 weeks in, in what's potentially a relatively small calorie deficit - is for water retention from new or increased exercise (especially strength exercise), to mask fat loss on the scale. When losing ultra-slowly, I've had it take maybe 6 weeks for the clouds to clear and show a reasonable trend.

I suspect hanging there with your current routine for another 2-3 weeks, maybe even a month or so, will shed some light. You're doing good stuff. It's highly probably that good results will accrue, and certainly the worst that can happen isn't disastrous in your situation. (Worst case: Zero fat loss, or a little fat gain but potentially a faster rate of muscle mass gain from the calorie surplus.)

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you're in that worst case scenario. If your logging is remotely accurate, I think you're probably on track. I'd endorse patient persistence, in your situation.

Tango_Bravado

tomcustombuilder wrote: »

Definitely over 1,800 daily average on a weekly basis.

Dude, what is your problem? You have been consistently attacking this point. I measure and weigh everything. The cream in my coffee. The salsa on my eggs. The olive oil I put in the pan. How many times do I need to say this? Literally the only thing I don't log is water and medication pills.

I log it every day. Is there some other way you want me to say this?

If all you are going to do is keep saying I am lying about my daily cal intake, go find another thread to pester. Jeez.

Tango_Bravado

Thank you to everyone else that has been giving real suggestions or advice

tomcustombuilder

Tango_Bravado wrote: »

tomcustombuilder wrote: »

Definitely over 1,800 daily average on a weekly basis.

Dude, what is your problem? You have been consistently attacking this point. I measure and weigh everything. The cream in my coffee. The salsa on my eggs. The olive oil I put in the pan. How many times do I need to say this? Literally the only thing I don't log is water and medication pills.

I log it every day. Is there some other way you want me to say this?

If all you are going to do is keep saying I am lying about my daily cal intake, go find another thread to pester. Jeez.

says the person that isn’t losing. I don’t think you’re lying I just think you’re inserting incorrect data.

It’s easy to be off due to the calorie amounts being crowdsourced. Look at the foods and drinks you consume the most frequently. If you’re off on those, those incorrect calories add up bigly and throw your calculations off over time.

99% of people not losing fat after 4-6 weeks are at maintenance.

kshama2001

Tango_Bravado wrote: »

@tomcustombuilder @sollyn23l2 @Retroguy2000

I am military, so that dietitian is the one I get. I was honestly there for a separate issue which was mostly ignored by the dietitian, and instead was given a bunch of unsolicited advice on the diet stuff lol.

I assume the dietitian was referring to "starvation mode", which from what I have read online and here on the forums, wouldn't come into play unless I held this deficit for a really long time.

I am definitely a firm believer in CICO, and I also think I will start seeing more noticable results in the next few weeks since I am only just going into week four (in addition to the apparent inch I have lost on the waist).

My question, hypothetical as it may be, is what would I do if I just kept maintaining at 1800/day? I can't go much lower (and shouldn't need to, given the deficit already) and still be able to maintain the nutrients I need. I fully understand that miscounting is the number one reason for weight loss failure, but even if I was miscounting by 200/day I would still be in at least a 500/day deficit not including exercise. I really can't believe that I could miscount more than 200 cal. I am very meticulous, I weigh everything that isn't a single serving (at least until I notice there is only negligible difference, i.e. the protein powder). It is almost like a game, to see how accurate I can be on a daily basis.

If I continue to not notice any weight change, is it possible that my body is burning fat and building muscle at a mass equivalent rate?

Veteran here. I did the VA MOVE program, because I needed to complete that in order to have access to the weight loss doctor and drugs. I wanted Contrave. Unfortunately, I could not take it due to several unpleasant GI side effects.

The MOVE program is often facilitated by a dietitian, but my program was done by a nurse, and she was chock full of weight loss myths. UGH.

I did take a referral to a dietitian for individual consultations. I had three appointments, and for whatever reason got three different people. I didn't find any of them especially helpful. As a long time MFP user, I already knew about accurate logging, protein, fiber, fruit, satiety, etc.

Frankly, I find the MFP forums far more useful and informative than anything the VA has offered me. You just have to deal with people rubbing you the wrong way sometimes I almost quit after the first thread I participated in, but am so glad I stuck around.

Tango_Bravado

@kshama2001 I should mention, not USA, I am Canadian.

Yeah, my experience mirrors your own with the dietitian. Not really impressed. I was referred there specifically for help lowering my cholesterol, which spiked from a medication. Nothing about cholesterol was talked about, instead they looked back through my records and started going on about concussion syndrome *kitten* and basically anything but cholesterol lol. Doc has since told me that my levels are halfway back to normal, so I guess I figured it out on my own haha.

Honestly, 99% of the people I have interacted with so far are super awesome, helpful, and supportive. I do with this forum had a block or ignore function for the other 1% that just want to criticize. Oh well. There will always be loser keyboard warriors trying to bring you down no matter where.

Thanks!!

AnnPT77

Tango_Bravado wrote: »

(snip)

I do with this forum had a block or ignore function for the other 1% that just want to criticize.

There is an ignore function, though it's imperfect. It will hide a particular person's posts so you don't see them, but if someone else quotes them you'll see their words in the quote in the 2nd person's post.

Click on the name of the person you want to ignore. Click on "View Profile". Up in the upper right somewhere there's a drop-down with a person-head icon on it. Click there. Then click on "Ignore".

It may look different if they have their profile set private, but I think you can still ignore them.

Apologies for the digression from your main point.

Tango_Bravado

@AnnPT77 no worries, I appreciate it!