Good fats

BodyTemple23

Hi All,

I'm working on weight loss. I didn't realize eating a low-fat diet was affecting me. I have now started eating healthy fats such as nuts, avocados, low-fat Greek yogurt, and cottage cheese (paneer). I also eat two whole eggs instead of just egg whites. I cook with coconut oil, use olive oil for eggs, and eat a bit of ghee in my food.

Healthy foods such as tempeh, beans, quinoa, rice, and oats also contain some fats, which add up. I limit these, but I need them for protein and a balanced diet. I realized carbs, not fats, were the reason I was gaining weight.

My HDL cholesterol went up from 130 to 140. As you may know, I need to improve it further so it's above 150. But my LDL also went up from 115 to 126.

My goal is weight loss and muscle gain. What is a good way to eat healthy fats without increasing LDL? My triglycerides are 75, so I'm good there.

nossmf

Limit saturated fats
Regular exercise
Adequate sleep
Reduce stress
Stop smoking

(These may or may not apply to you personally.)

AnnPT77

If you want to reduce saturated fats, you might consider replacing coconut oil for cooking with something like avocado oil, if it's available where you are. Ghee is also high in saturated fats.

There will be folks who tell you saturated fat isn't a problem, from whole sources at least. The mainstream nutritional expert view, however, is that limiting saturated and trans fats will be helpful for reducing LDL. Which type of LDL is a problem, and whether it's a problem at all, is also somewhat controversial. I'd assume you're following guidance from your doctor.

In addition to nossmf's list, alcohol can raise LDL. So can certain medications.

Lietchi

Ghee has 50% saturated fat, according to a quick Google search. And paneer's fat count is also more than 50% saturated, it would seem. And coconut is mainly (90+%) a saturated fat as well. So I wouldn't eat too much of those.
(But it is worthwhile to note that saturated and monounsaturated fats are more resistant to heat so better for cooking (you generally don't want to cook with polyunsaturated oils - use those for dressings etc)

I'd try to get some fatty fish in there too - based on the foods you've mentioned that's the one big source of good fats that seems to be missing? Or any other source of omega 3.

And soluble give is also good for cholesterol values I seem to remember. For example oatmeal.

I'm a bit puzzled by your HDL goal - I've never seen those numbers before as actual values or goals (goal values here are 40 for men and 50 for women). Perhaps a different unit of measurement?

neanderthin

LDL is a red herring, it's a good story to implement and sell drugs basically, and statins are the #1 money maker. With an HDL that high, and that's really high, and with your triglycerides at that 75 level your actual risk for heart related events is in the basement. If your Dr. actually had a clue they would have told you this but unfortunately most don't. If your worried about your arteries then get your PCP to perform a CAC (Coronary Artery Calcium) test that way you'll know for sure.

The main reason for heart related diseases is from inflammation and that's driven by mostly the wrong carbohydrates and seed oils that cause glycation and basically starts the process for heart disease. This shows up in triglycerides levels and 150 is deemed normal but personally I believe that's too high and 100 to be a better base line but unfortunately that would cause a rift in the politics of food manufacturing and guidelines. This isn't rocket science but there is a need to keep your eye on the ball and not be distracted by ideology, which is still working pretty well keeping everyone distracted and confused and makes certain entities a lot of money, and it's all about money. Do your own research but your not going to find it in the legacy media and the need to venture into actual science. Basically you have nothing to worry about and freaking out that your LDL went up 11 points from a snapshot in time is what they want you to be afraid of, which is ridiculous imho.

BodyTemple23

@neanderthin, actually, my HDL is 40 (not 140; that was a typo). It was 30 and went up after I started eating healthy fats (or what I assumed were healthy). I did a Function Health test (Functional Medicine) a few months ago and found that my LDL, around 115 at that point, has more dense particles than fluffier buoyant particles.

Does that change anything?

Thanks, all. I will research the saturated fat content in my oils and foods. Other foods, such as carbohydrates, might also be causing it. I don't smoke or drink alcohol. I'm not on prescription meds. I do take a lot of supplements.

I appreciate the responses and insights. Thank you!

Lietchi

Lietchi wrote: »

And soluble give is also good for cholesterol values I seem to remember. For example oatmeal.

Smartphones seem to get dumber and dumber and I really need to reread before posting: soluble fiber, not give!

neanderthin

BodyTemple23 wrote: »

@neanderthin, actually, my HDL is 40 (not 140; that was a typo). It was 30 and went up after I started eating healthy fats (or what I assumed were healthy). I did a Function Health test (Functional Medicine) a few months ago and found that my LDL, around 115 at that point, has more dense particles than fluffier buoyant particles.

Does that change anything?

Thanks, all. I will research the saturated fat content in my oils and foods. Other foods, such as carbohydrates, might also be causing it. I don't smoke or drink alcohol. I'm not on prescription meds. I do take a lot of supplements.

I appreciate the responses and insights. Thank you!

Natural saturated fats when replacing seed oils and refined carbohydrates and sugar will result in replacing the small dense and more atherogenic LDL particles with the less atherogenic large buoyant LDL but it can result in elevating LDL, not always depending on many factors but generally speaking and the bonus is this also elevated HDL cholesterol and why LDL is not a very reliable proxy at all, especially in isolation, the so called risk disappears. Refined carbohydrates and sugar are what causes heart disease and not cholesterol, this has been known for literally decades.

I would try a get your fats from the natural sources found in the foods you eat, like fish especially cold water fish and the red meat of rudiment animals like beef, venison, water buffalo, lamb and goat as well poultry and the fats in seeds, nuts, avocado, coconut for example and when you need to use a fat for cooking it should ideally be a saturated fat, like butter/ghee, duck fat, tallow et al and fruit oils like extra virgin olive oil and avocado oil and try to stay away from polyunsaturated fats as much as you can to cook with, these are very volatile and are susceptible to oxidation and free radicals, which generally are most seed oils and where trans fats are as well. All of this will realign your omega 6 and omega 3's to a more natural ratio of at least 4:1 and lower like 1:1 would be ideal but hard to achieve but it's at least better than the 15:1 to 25:1which is what's happening to the general population of the USA which like I said is very inflammatory and the major contributor to most of the non communicable diseases and the big one is heart disease, not what we want at all.

With trigs in the 70's and HDL at 40 isn't really much to be concerned about but if a persons diet is high in UPF and seed oils, then all bets are off because it's the glycation that results that take us down a road that isn't healthy, at all. Basically try and consume mostly whole foods with good bioavailable protein and natural fats most people would be just fine.

BodyTemple23

@neanderthin, thank you so much for your detailed and highly insightful response. I love that you also answered my question on good fats.

"the fats in seeds, nuts, avocado, coconut for example and when you need to use a fat for cooking it should ideally be a saturated fat, like butter/ghee, duck fat, tallow et al and fruit oils like extra virgin olive oil and avocado oil"

I don't eat meat. Just eggs and dairy. I'm trying to add salmon/fish and chicken to my diet, but I'm unsure if I will be able to as I have been a vegetarian all my life.

My Omega 3 seems fine. I need to work on Omega 6 (see attached). My doctor agrees that I should add some animal protein to my diet. I'm trying. If you have any thoughts, please share.

neanderthin

BodyTemple23 wrote: »

@neanderthin, thank you so much for your detailed and highly insightful response. I love that you also answered my question on good fats.

"the fats in seeds, nuts, avocado, coconut for example and when you need to use a fat for cooking it should ideally be a saturated fat, like butter/ghee, duck fat, tallow et al and fruit oils like extra virgin olive oil and avocado oil"

I don't eat meat. Just eggs and dairy. I'm trying to add salmon/fish and chicken to my diet, but I'm unsure if I will be able to as I have been a vegetarian all my life.

My Omega 3 seems fine. I need to work on Omega 6 (see attached). My doctor agrees that I should add some animal protein to my diet. I'm trying. If you have any thoughts, please share.

Thanks for this additional info, interesting because it's rare someone has taken it upon themselves to get a panel done like this and very few do a Functional Health Test, so good for you and I've had 2 in the last 10 years.

As far as your Dr. recommending animal protein to your diet is really just based on the science regarding omega's in general and how they compare to plant based versions. We are animals after all and not plants therefore biologically speaking animal proteins are more efficiently absorbed without the need for enzymatic elongation and desaturation in order to further convert the plant based versions of LA (linoleic acid) the plant based version of omega 3's and ALA (alpha-linolenic acid) the omega 6 plant version. One of the problems from the get go is both of these omega's compete with each other because they share the same pathway for that enzymatic pathway so when one is out of balance "too much" it effects the other in the efficiency of absorption. This is the main reason consuming seed oils like soy, corn and canola for example all omega 6's have created this problem all because the vilification of natural animal fats, the agenda is complicated but needless to say it's still not a talking point for the most part and people still believe animals foods are unhealthy, which is telling, fortunately all of this misinformation will come out in the wash and much has in the last 5 years from what I've seen, so I feel encouraged about it. The second problem is the conversion rate and both LA & ALA to AA, EPA and DHA is extremely low, however you being a lifelong vegetarian will have a much better conversion rate than the average person, but it's still pretty low, maybe in the 20% range.

Your omega 6/3 ratio is 6.2 which is better than the 15 to 25:1 ratios of the average population and I suspect that come into play from your triglyceride count of 75 where those higher numbers basically indicate and show triglyceride levels higher than the 150 and I've seen many in the 400-1000 range all the time. So that is encouraging but one marker I'm not quite sure about is the omega 3 EPA @ 0.8 which means that that much is circulation in your blood at any given time and the recommended or optimal range is in the 4% and up, so not sure about that.

Anyway, if it were me I'd be either supplementing with a quality omega 3 and believe me that is an industry upon itself and most are low quality and many are rancid from the get go due to shoddy manufacturing practices from the simple oxidation that takes place when these volatile omega's are exposed to light, heat or oxygen in those manufacturing plants. Ideally they should come from fish sources and I would suggest you try that instead and it's basically why all fats should be consumed from the source that contains them, which is real food.

I won't go any deeper into this but I do believe that animal sources are pretty much a prerequisite for good health without the complications of navigating the alternatives and when your vegetarian or vegan that can get complicated and confusing and unfortunately many of the health issues don't surface for many years but can slowly and without knowing effect many important functions within the body and especially in the brain where DHA is so important, anyway I'm sure you have a good take on your health and will determine what is best for you.

xbowhunter

Thankfully the low-fat diet craze has been debunked. The sugar industry was pretty clever back in the day convincing everyone that sugar was better than fat. lol

neanderthin

xbowhunter wrote: »

Thankfully the low-fat diet craze has been debunked. The sugar industry was pretty clever back in the day convincing everyone that sugar was better than fat. lol

It took way too long imo. When Ansel Keys proposed his 7 Country Study research and with the findings significantly influenced the dietary goals of the USA to reduce dietary fat and saturated fat directly to the Senate Select Committee on Nutrition and Human Needs known as the McGovern Report which was published in 1977 and then in 1980 the first dietary guideline was introduced with these recommendations.

A few years later it was found that it wasn't a 7 country study but a 22 country study but 15 countries didn't support his hypothesis, so he left them out, crazy stuff really but everything comes out in the wash eventually. For example during this time another scientist named Dr. John Yutkin a British physiologist and nutritionist who argued that sugar consumption was more closely linked to heart disease than dietary fat. He was a scientist in a lab and Keys was a pretty big figure in that arena who was the guy that put together food rations for the US military in WW2 and he basically crushed Yutkin making him out to be weak and consequently most people ignored Yutkins basically ruined his career, but he was right.

2 Harvard Doctors Mark Hegsted and Fredrick Stare who were paid by the sugar Industry at that time to downplay the role of sugar in heart disease and instead emphasized the dangers of dietary fat. they got paid about 50,000.00 each by todays standards which all came to light in 2016. Dr. Mark Hegsted coincidentally was appointed to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) from 1978 to 1982 who served as the administrator, it's certainly interesting how it's who you know and influence and where you might end up.

BodyTemple23

@neanderthin, I deeply appreciate your detailed response and insights. Thank you! We are so lucky to have you as part of the MFP community. This knowledge is invaluable.

I love functional medicine, and I follow Dr. Mark Hyman. I decided to take advantage of the full functional testing that his lab offers. I honestly don't think doctors are in a position to solve all health problems, especially when it's not part of a set curriculum. Besides, you are one of the 100s of patients they treat, not to mention they have their own lives to live. So, taking charge of your health in partnership with your doctor is the way to go. I'm on my journey of health and wellness.

You are right about some of the long-term effects of dietary habits, especially on your brain. Something I have wondered myself. As a vegetarian, unless you put in a really focused effort to eat protein-rich foods on a daily basis, it's hard to miss even macronutrients. It was a hard pill to swallow that I have been eating mostly carbs all my life because of a lack of awareness. The seemingly healthy Indian veg food is so devoid of nutrition.

Thanks again. I will work on your recommendation and will be testing periodically to see the effects.

AnnPT77

Of course remember that your eggs and dairy also count as "animal foods", quite EAA complete and bioavailable.

Also, note that there are algae sources of DHA/EPA available as algae oil - vegan. Obviously, there are controversies and disputes about every dimension of nutrition, including Omega-3 food sources/supplements. But some reasonably sound sources suggest that algae oil is of equivalent benefit to fish oil.

I prefer to get nutrients from whole food, so I'd absolutely encourage people willing to eat Omega-3 rich fish to do that. But if it comes down to supplements, algae oils are IMO a reasonable source for vegetarians/vegans who want to be stricter about plant-sourced food for whatever reasons. (Of course quality matters, regardless of the source.)

If one of your concerns as a vegetarian is your system tolerating meat/fish, I suspect that's a temporary issue. Gut microbiome adaptation needs to happen, and possibly other forms of physiological adjustment besides.

With zero proof, I suspect that a gradual phase-in would be less unpleasant digestively (since that's true for other gut microbiome adaptations), and likewise suspect that once some meat/fish is integrated in one's eating that it would be a good idea to then eat it semi-regularly rather than rarely. Underscoring: That's somewhat speculative.

I haven't been able to re-find it, but I saw a small crossover study at one point that examined gut microbiome adaptation bi-directionally, i.e., they found meat-eaters willing to go fully plant-based, and vegetarians willing to start eating animal foods. The point of the study was to get some preliminary insights about gut microbiome adaptation. The results were IIRC a surprise to the investigators: The adaptation was quicker than they'd expected, on the order of a couple of weeks, if memory serves.

BodyTemple23

@AnnPT77, thank you! I appreciate your input as always. You are right. I say, "I'm trying" because I made salmon this week, but I could only eat a small piece and couldn't eat more. I may need to follow a different recipe to avoid tasting like fish. It is not easy. It took me two years of mulling over to mentally prepare myself. Baby steps.

I take fish oil supplements, but that's not enough dose. I need to increase it, but that's not a challenge once I figure out my nutrition. The back story is I have a condition called normal weight obesity, aka skinny fat. Skinny fat as a term is misleading because I'm not skinny. I'm 137 pounds and I'm 5'4. I needed to lose about 10-15 pounds until I got Dexa and got the shock of my life to discover how morbidly obese I am with 40% body fat. Even the MPF community was surprised to hear about my unique situation. (I didn't know that my condition was a thing when I posted) because the awareness of this condition is poor, even among the doctors. It's more prevalent in India and China. After some research and mulling over, I identified several factors causing it.

I'm telling myself I don't need to become a carnivore. I'm just trying to add a little bit of white meat (fish, mostly salmon and chicken) to my diet. I intend to take it slow and continue to eat 80% vegetarian (with dairy and eggs, like I'm doing now). Hopefully, a year from now, I'll have reversed my condition and built some muscle, which has become critical in my case. I'll be testing periodically to check my progress and course correct.

Thank you, Ann! Appreciate your input, and you have given many!!

@neanderthin, If you have insights on normal-weight obesity, please share them. I have mostly been listening to metabolic disorder experts and working on improving insulin sensitivity (I'm not diabetic), but the long period of eating carbs has not helped. Am I on the right track?

Thank you in advance.

neanderthin

BodyTemple23 wrote: »

@AnnPT77, thank you! I appreciate your input as always. You are right. I say, "I'm trying" because I made salmon this week, but I could only eat a small piece and couldn't eat more. I may need to follow a different recipe to avoid tasting like fish. It is not easy. It took me two years of mulling over to mentally prepare myself. Baby steps.

I take fish oil supplements, but that's not enough dose. I need to increase it, but that's not a challenge once I figure out my nutrition. The back story is I have a condition called normal weight obesity, aka skinny fat. Skinny fat as a term is misleading because I'm not skinny. I'm 137 pounds and I'm 5'4. I needed to lose about 10-15 pounds until I got Dexa and got the shock of my life to discover how morbidly obese I am with 40% body fat. Even the MPF community was surprised to hear about my unique situation. (I didn't know that my condition was a thing when I posted) because the awareness of this condition is poor, even among the doctors. It's more prevalent in India and China. After some research and mulling over, I identified several factors causing it.

I'm telling myself I don't need to become a carnivore. I'm just trying to add a little bit of white meat (fish, mostly salmon and chicken) to my diet. I intend to take it slow and continue to eat 80% vegetarian (with dairy and eggs, like I'm doing now). Hopefully, a year from now, I'll have reversed my condition and built some muscle, which has become critical in my case. I'll be testing periodically to check my progress and course correct.

Thank you, Ann! Appreciate your input, and you have given many!!

@neanderthin, If you have insights on normal-weight obesity, please share them. I have mostly been listening to metabolic disorder experts and working on improving insulin sensitivity (I'm not diabetic), but the long period of eating carbs has not helped. Am I on the right track?

Thank you in advance.

Yeah, I'm familiar with your situation in the respect that I've researched it quite a bit over the last few years and your right it's mostly in India and China and it's a condition called "metabolically obese normal weight" (MONW). It's understood to be a cluster of conditions and them being poor diet, a lack of physical activity and a genetic disposition.

I've been to India 3 times and it's one of my favorite Countries and your right MONW is very common. The last trip to India I did a "home stay" for a month with an prominent Indian family in a gated type community who were fabulous and even baked me a cake for my birthday, lol. Anyway the whole family, parents and 2 daughters were MONW with the parents holding a little more subcutaneous fat, so they looked a little fatter. They were vegetarian and all meals were of course a good variety of dishes but a lot or wheat grain, rice, pulses, gravies and curries, breads, fried food that kind of thing but they used a lot of seed oils instead of ghee, I asked why they said the gov't said ghee was unhealthy, which apparently started in the 80's and for people to start using vegetable oils, and they were quite generous using it as well and I would venture a guess they (India in general) use more fat than Italians use evoo do on a daily basis. Besides Delhi and Agra I've also been to Jaipur, Mumbai, Goa and Kerala and noticed that same situation, it's just normal normal.

Anyway it's a combination of a very high carbohydrate diet lacking in protein for the most part, high fat, which I mentioned, and a lot of processed and sugary foods with a more affluent middle class being fairly inactive, physically speaking and that genetic predisposition and I could get into why that influences this phenomena, but I'll just quickly say it has to do with hormonal regulation, Insulin sensitivity, fat distribution and how the adipose tissue which is basically mostly visceral fat which is very metabolically active and creates a lot of dysfunction with inflammation being the 900 lb gorilla and contributes to insulin resistance, type 2 diabetes and heart disease and India believe it or not has a higher percentage of people with diabetes than the USA and that's saying a lot. Lots of skinny fat people with diabetes and heart disease. And of course the basic plight people in 3rd world countries had for millennia just subsisting which translates into lower muscle tissue to of course help sustain that condition and relying on mostly plant food like in India and China as examples.

Now, this condition and I'm not sure if you have this condition or are just worried about your health in general but this route is not going to be the healthiest way fwd. Ok, I see you do have this condition. My personal opinion is that fat and carbs are fuels for the most part with fat having a few essential factors and of course we would die without consuming fat. Carbs on the other hand are not required for life. What we need for life is glucose and our body manufactures all the glucose it needs from a process called gluconeogenesis over the course of the day and in the realm of about 130g's if a person didn't consume any carbs and 130 happens to be the RDA from the USDA.

Now saying that, I do consume carbs but I'm on a ketogenic diet with the focus on protein and fat in a 70:30 ratio of fat to protein and the fat is my fuel source instead of carbs and the carbs I consume are vegetables basically and I consume around 20-40g's a day which is a lot of vegetables and of course that gives me adequate fiber as well.

The basic problem in India from what I can surmise is that the more affluent middle class, which is huge as adapted a more western diet which started with those seed oils 40 years ago and a diet really high in carbohydrates that include processed foods without a doubt muck with our satiety hormones which controls our hunger signaling in the gut and brain much like it has in most western countries and that drives overeating and why most western countries are overweigh and obese. Basically it's about the sheer volume of elevated blood glucose that people experience on a diet like this and over the years IR, prediabetes and diabetes being the worse outcome but this is also the basic linchpin for low grade chronic inflammation which manifests in other diseases as well, like fatty liver which was only seen in elderly alcoholics back in the 70's and now 5 year old children have been diagnosed with this disease and of course hypertension, heart disease, cancer, COPD and cognitive dysfunctions like dementia and Alzheimer's which has been accepted as being diabetes 3. I suspect with your lower trigs that your situation, if your worried about it is at least not a serious as it might be as you age, so now is a good time to get a handle on it.

If I wanted to do something about that condition and I was an Indian with this condition I would reduce my carb consumption by at least half and increase the protein to replace those carbs and reduce any processed foods as much as possible. I would stop using seed oils and get back to ghee, increase my vegetables and I would seriously think of adding in some more animal protein and suspect you eat eggs and dairy, well, increase those as well and if I was sedentary I would pick up a discipline/sport that will get me to move and do that regularly. At least this is a place to start then reevaluate 3 to 6 months later with a follow up blood work. Hope this helps a little.

BodyTemple23

@neanderthin, I have significantly cut back on my carbs for the past year and increased my protein intake. What I had not done was increase my fat intake, which helps metabolize protein. Now, I'm doing that and further adjusting my carbs to accommodate the fat. I was eating very little fat. I also gave up sugar. I don't stock sugar at my place or indulge in processed foods or desserts.

I also work out every day. I lift weights 4-5x weekly, climb stairs (75 floors), and spin twice weekly. Believe it or not, the Dexa was after all of that, except incorporating fats. My condition was mostly caused by eating way more carbs (things like poha, idlis, and dosas are considered very healthy in India).

It's an interesting story about spending time in India. Thanks for sharing. Yes, people in India eat a lot of carbohydrates without realizing it. I'm not sure if the government said anything about the ghee, though. That may have been a personal choice of theirs. Ghee is revered in India. Although it's not used in cooking, people consume it with a ton of rice, like 300-400g, which causes the problem.

Anyway, it's good to know I'm on the right track. Thank you.

neanderthin

Your very welcome.