Not enough deep sleep
Hello,
I am at the beginning of what is a 9 week challenge to improve my sleep, train even more and eat even better. I can consciously control the training and the eating better but I am a little stumped with the sleep.
After reviewing data collected from my tracker (Fitbit Charge 6) I can see I am getting between 50mins and 90 mins of deep sleep per night. Research suggests that this is not quite enough and I am looking to try and understand how I can get more time in deep sleep.
I already read before bed for 30 mins or so to not be on a screen and I typically stop eating 2 hours + before bed. I limit caffeine intake to between 5am - 11am and I train in the gym regularly. I also work hard at home and in my job.
I'm looking for some tips to help me get a deeper sleep. Can you help?
Replies
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Update: I did some research and identified Magnesium Glycinate as a supplement shown to aid in reaching longer deep sleep. After a couple of days of taking this, I have found a significant improvement in how much deep sleep I had last night and hope that this is a sign of things to come!
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Please don't believe these devices. If anything, they guess how well you're sleeping. If I use a fitbit it tells me I wake up 40x per night. If I use a garmin I don't wake up at all despite going to the loo in the middle of the night. Heck, it even thinks I have naps during daytime while I'm working. Basically, go with how well you sleep and how rested you feel.
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Additional Update: WOW - Magnesium has changed the game for my sleep.
Fitbit indicates what I can already feel - More restful and better quality sleep!
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regular daily exercise, limiting noise in the night can help, no screens in the night on waking. I struggle with sleep too. I alternate meds and supplements at times of more than 3 nights without much sleep too help.
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@tjknharrisfam which meds and supplements are helping you? I'm able to fall asleep but usually wake up in the wee hours and extremely difficult to get back to sleep, also desiring of deeper better quality sleep as dragging. Wondering whats working for you
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Just started pay attention to my sleep results on this app and am astounded how little sleep I actually get a night. I'm also intrigued on the different levels and types of sleep. I've been under the impression for years that REM was the most important stage in sleep but do I understand it correctly now that deep sleep is actually the most important? Is it natural for us to cycle in and out of the different stages of sleep each night? So many questions, does anybody have any articles I can read preferably peer-reviewed?
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No, I don't have articles at hand, but I do know that cycling in and out of different sleep phases is absolutely how it works, and that most/all of the cycles are important but have different effects/benefits.
What I really feel compelled to say: If the sleep data's source is an app or fitness tracker syncing with MFP, as I believe it must be, take anything it says with a grain of salt . . . maybe a whole giant warehouse-club-sized bag of salt.
I'm not a sleep expert, and don't pretend to be. But I've struggled with sleep problems for around 25 years now. I know some stuff - not everything - from sound sources, mostly the parts that apply to my particular problems.
Among other very technical/medical things, I've had multiple in-hospital sleep studies. They wire me up with sensors for heart rate, movement of legs and other body parts, brain activity, a mask that measures breathing, and I don't know what-all. Sensors and wires all over the body. On top of that, there's a technician who's literally watching all through the night, sound and video. I don't know how many patients one tech monitors, but it's a very small number, maybe even only one. (The subject, me, can call out to them for any issues, like needing to use the restroom, needing different room temp or more blankets, etc. - they respond quickly, so they're definitely paying attention.)
The most recent test, I was wearing a good brand/model fitness tracker, one that theoretically tracks sleep. After the night, there's an immediate brief consult with the technician who's been monitoring overnight, with more detailed follow-up later in written form. In the immediate consult, I showed the tech what my device had recorded.
We laughed and laughed: Totally out of sync with what I'd experienced subjectively. Totally out of sync with what she'd captured with much more sophisticated monitoring technology.
Maybe that's only true for people with sleep disorders. I have no way of knowing. But it makes me skeptical that anyone should make any challenging lifestyle changes based solely on what some consumer-type tracker says.
Sure, if sleep feels unsatisfying or there are other negative subjective experiences with fatigue, wake-ups, whatever, then try straightforward sleep hygiene improvements or other things to see if it helps. Maybe even look at the tracker results and see if anything changes.
But if a person feels OK, is doing well, I'd encourage not reacting to a tracker saying some theoretically unusual thing. At minimum, discuss with your doctor before doing anything major or difficult.
Just my opinion.
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How much magnesium glycinate do you take? Does the dosage vary by body weight? If you take a multivitamin with Magnesium in it, would taking a supplement be too much?
I can have trouble falling asleep (old) and often wake up in the middle of the night and have trouble getting back to sleep. I take a tylenol PM to help me go to sleep now, but I would rather not.
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FWIW, I've found the US NIH fact sheets for health professionals to be quite helpful for some of the questions in your post. The one about magnesium is here:
There usually is a "for consumers" equivalent, but the "for professionals" ones aren't dauntingly technical, and contain more detailed information plus supporting references. They exist for many nutrients, and are easily found by navigating from that link.
The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for magnesium varies by age and sex, and for women pregnancy/lactation status. For women over 30 who aren't pregnant/lactating - I think you may be in that demographic? - it's 320 mg.
They don't address glycinate explicitly, but in the US, the amount of magnesium on the supplement label should be elemental magnesium (not the weight of the compound that carries it, in this case magnesium glycinate), so a useful reference number. The magnesium in a multi-vitamin would count the same as in a specific magnesium supplement.
The tolerable upper intake level (UL) for the same demographic is 350 mg, but toxicity is rare according to that link, and too-high doses for an individual are likely to be signaled by digestive distress or diarrhea before serious toxicity occurs. (Acute toxicity risk is increased if kidneys or liver function are impaired.)
The UL is defined in terms of supplement intake, not including food sources, while the RDA is all-source: Implications is that the RDA being close to the UL in this case isn't necessarily scary.
There's a whole long section at the link about magnesium for diabetics among other health conditions, so if someone really wants info about this, I'd strongly, strongly suggest reading the document at the link above. There are also interactions with other medications or supplements that may be relevant to timing taking the supplement, or even whether supplementing is a good plan for a particular individual. What I wrote above is intended as a quick summary of points relative to the PP, and I'm not an expert.
If the trouble getting to sleep or getting back to sleep is the "brain spinning" thought process effect, FWIW I was told by the professional staff at my large employer's employee assistance program that a short course of cognitive behavioral therapy is quite effective for that. I can't independently confirm that, because that's not the type of insomnia I have, so my route was different . . . but I have no reason to doubt their expertise, given their credentials.
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magnesium glycate plush Ashwaganda have definitely made a dent in improving my sleep. I know everyone is different but I notes also if I workout after 6pm affects my sleep, even while taking my supplements because of the increased adrenaline and cortisol
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Sleep stack which also promotes post exercise recovery, take about 30min-1 hr before bed.
Works like a charm.
ZMA
KSM-66 Ashwaganda
L-Theonine
Glycine
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Yes! I take 540mg of Magnesium Glycinate every night. Between that and my Progesterone I'm out pretty easy. Sometimes I still wake in the night. My deep sleep varies so much even with the same amount of sleep. Heck even when I sleep 9 hours or more I don't always go over 60 minutes of deep sleep. I know the watches aren't super accurate but I do find that I wake up from dreams very accurately when my REM ends though.
I get 10-20 minutes of the early morning sun in my eyes every day usually. I've missed only 2 days I think in the last month. Or went down way later. It really does help in melatonin production.
Have your hormones checked. You can take pregnenolone to help regulate them. Yes even men. My Primary Dr had led me to the Magnesium and Pregnenolone before I got all the testing done for HRT(I had ovarian cysts and endometriosis so I had to have both removed).
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Depends on the amount in the multivitamin. My methylated B vitamins has some Magnesium. I've been taking 58 mg in the morning with that vitamin and then 540mg at night an hour before bed. I haven't had any electrolyte imbalances yet. I think I'll drop to 3 tablets though which would be 405 and see if I have the same results.
My Dr's recommendation was 400 mg at bedtime. Back when she first recommended it I was taking one of their melatonin 5htp blends which really helped. But I would prefer not to take the melatonin anymore besides the best way is to wake with the sun and stand out facing the sun every morning. If possible limit lights and blue screens in the evening. The nights I have skipped my magnesium(such huge pills) I still fell asleep well but my progesterone does knock me out alone. 🙂
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Yes I don't take it for fully accurate. Especially the deep sleep and the HRV. But I know for a fact my REM cycles do line up because when I wake up from weird and crazy dreams the times line up perfectly. And my red blotches of waking up or going to the restroom have lined up. But I don't trust the calculations on REM and deep. But I should take my logs to my old college psychology professor who told me there's no way I dream in a 20-30 minute nap.
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