How do you define "healthy" in an individual?
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My problem is that a person at a healthy weight, body fat percentage, and with great lab work results would be called "unhealthy" by some people based on their diet without any way to justify that assertion other than their personal concept of what healthy food is.
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Also, some people who have great lab work, blood pressure, etc. can be overweight or obese. That was the case for me well into my 40s. Nothing showed up in the doctor's office until I was almost 50, but I weighed over 200 lbs. Sometimes only 'time will tell."
I'm enjoying the discussion immensely. After losing 79 lbs and nearing my goal, I'm definitely healthier! And I am now eating mostly clean. I wake up in the morning energetic and excited for what a new day brings. I feel stronger, happier, and more alive. I look in the mirror and still can't believe who I see is really me. That isn't something you can measure, but I know I DIDN'T feel that way a year ago. I don't know if "healthy" can actually be measured. It is different for different people. Maybe we should withhold judgement on others, not expect everyone to believe like we do, and just be happy that we are each finding our way!0 -
I also like WHO's.
I think health is subjective, at least in some part. So much of it has to do with how a person feels and their personal circumstances, that I don't think you aren't going to find a way to take quantifiable measurements.
My problem is that a person at a healthy weight, body fat percentage, and with great lab work results would be called "unhealthy" by some people based on their diet without any way to justify that assertion other than their personal concept of what healthy food is.
In general, I think some people have narrow views of what health is. And usually they hold their view for a self serving purpose (moral superiority).
Maybe my perspective is skewed. Considering health by the criteria "a healthy weight, body fat percentage, and with great lab work results" I would be considered unhealthy. I am "overweight" according to the BMI by 7 pounds. My BF% and waist measurements are "normal", have no major health issues. So am I less healthy than somebody who just weighs a little less? I would argue no because I feel super and my doctor has quit suggesting I need to lose weight. My point is, I think it's unfair to label anyone "unhealthy" because a lot goes into health you can't see. Or eat.
I think people cling hard to standards of health they have achieved. If that makes sense. It's like pride gone awry.
Whenever a person is at one end or the other of the "healthy" BMI range people on here will determine or diagnose what they think that person's health is. I'm teetering on the edge of the low range, but I'm extremely healthy according to all my tests at the doctors and they say I am not underweight. I just have a very small frame (as does everyone else in my family), and I've always been this size, and I've been an active dancer since I was 11 (and I also lift weights). But, I've never gone on a low calorie diet and usually make an effort to eat more to make sure I don't drop weight (because of my activity levels). I agree that people can be outside the "healthy" range and be very healthy. There are so many factors that go into that individual that can determine a different healthy weight for them. But, people on here have called me a special snowflake for saying that.0 -
Being strong enough to function in normal life (carry groceries, children, be able to move a couch with one other person).
Fit enough to function in normal life, ascend 3 flights of stairs, walk a half mile, without getting winded or needing to sit down.
Besides colds, no more than one "sickness" or illness a year. You get 2 or 3 if you have germ factories, I mean children.
Healthy body fat percentage (13-30% for women, 6-24% for men)
Good blood markers, cholesterol, etc.
Healthy blood pressure.
Healthy skin, hair, and finger nails.0 -
Healthy food? Or a healthy person?
Your subject appears to refer to people, but then you ask about healthy food.
I hope my meat comes from a healthy animal and my veggies and fruits were healthy plants, that the grain they made my bread from was not moldy, etc. I don't classify types of food as healthy or not. Clean food means it was washed. I will classify food as calorie-dense or nutritionally-dense.
I'm more concerned with my health and the health of other people than the health of my food. (I live in the U.S. and optimistically hope the FDA and other systems are keeping arsenic and mad cow disease among other things out of our food chain.) People's health involves eating the appropriate amount of calories and nutrition, not particular foods. Food is important to health, but it's not the only thing that affects our physical health.
How do I measure physical health in people? Well at a basic level, health means not being sick. Not having high blood pressure, frequent illnesses, infections, diabetes, or other chronic, painful, debilitating or fatal conditions, etc. Even better (healthier) is not requiring medical intervention to stay that way (for instance, not requiring medication to keep your blood pressure in a good range). Better still is being able to do reasonable and fun things with your body -- being able to walk as far as you like, swim, participate in sports or other activities.
ETA: P.S. I like the WHO definition too. And agree with the comments that to some extent an individual's health is subjective. But I also agree with the OP, that if someone wants to claim that something (food, exercise or other) will on average make people healthier, then they need to be able to measure it in some objective way.
I am talking about health in terms of a person, despite what they eat, providing that they are meeting their nutritional requirements.0 -
I would describe "healthy" as someone free of illness or disease.0
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My problem is that a person at a healthy weight, body fat percentage, and with great lab work results would be called "unhealthy" by some people based on their diet without any way to justify that assertion other than their personal concept of what healthy food is.
Also, some people who have great lab work, blood pressure, etc. can be overweight or obese. That was the case for me well into my 40s. Nothing showed up in the doctor's office until I was almost 50, but I weighed over 200 lbs. Sometimes only 'time will tell."
I'm enjoying the discussion immensely. After losing 79 lbs and nearing my goal, I'm definitely healthier! And I am now eating mostly clean. I wake up in the morning energetic and excited for what a new day brings. I feel stronger, happier, and more alive. I look in the mirror and still can't believe who I see is really me. That isn't something you can measure, but I know I DIDN'T feel that way a year ago. I don't know if "healthy" can actually be measured. It is different for different people. Maybe we should withhold judgement on others, not expect everyone to believe like we do, and just be happy that we are each finding our way!
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Yes, many times an obese person can have great bloodwork and vitals, which is why I included body fat percentage in my OP. Having a high body fat percentage has been shown to increase certain risk factors, so that is definitely something that needs to be managed.0 -
I like the WHO's definition as well. It's definitely not just a physical thing, that's for sure.
I did a health assessment through work a few months back. All of my health markers were better were they should be but the assessment also asked a number of questions. I lost a lot of point over the stress I admitted to.
That and I told them I worked out 4 days a week, using a conservative estimate as I work shift work. Some weeks I work out 6 days, some 4. I was also training for a half marathon at the time and crossfitting so often doing 1-2 hours of exercise a day. I lost points because "they" recommend 1/2 a day, 5 days a week and suggested I workout more (it was a computer survey that produced the results and suggestions).
Yeah, I'm rambling.
I just went through a similar assessment, and rated in the 95th percentile for everything, for whatever that's worth. However, they consider me in a risk category because of my workload and stress levels. Their nurses now check on me every two weeks. One of their recommendations, as well, was that I cut back on my workouts. As such, I told them to go jump in a lake, because that is the one thing that is keeping me FROM being a risk. When I asked them how that would benefit me mentally and physically, they couldn't answer me, just that they didn't want me to hurt myself.
Personally - I track how healthy I am by how well I cope with stress and how well I'm able to perform in the gym. Most of all, I track how often I get sick and/or how severe that illness is. But I can only tell that for me - I've been very healthy & fit by all my markers for more than 3 years, so it's the one thing that I can quantify for me. I've had some pretty serious health issues in that time, one bout of flu and the rest were stress-induced.0 -
For objective metrics (of people)... idk, maybe refer to an actuary or insurance company for probabilities? Even the best clinical tests & measurements are limited in terms of identifying risks (& even active illnesses/injuries).
Re the value of food as far as it contributes to whatever we want to call health, I think that if you hit most of your various nutrients over time, you should be ok. & that *probably*, if along the way, you prioritize, idk, some veg & fruit & protein sources you're more likely to get at those nutrients than otherwise. as far as synthetic supplements/vitamins go, ok, i am not someone who knows how to talk about that, but my understanding is it's all fairly complicated, in terms of metabolism, bioavailability, all that, & depends on regulation, manufacturing, standardization, etc etc.
Then again, wider use of folic acid in manufactured foods is thought to have reduced risk for some cancers, heart defects, and neural tube defects in newborns. And veg/fruit grown in the suboptimal ground we have is apparently less nutritious than it would have been 50 years ago.
In short, who knows. I try to hedge my bets (imperfectly, also comes down to what I can afford, feel like, and is convenient).0 -
Healthy weight for height, age and build.
Normal levels in blood tests.
Athletic ability.
Lack of disease.
Cognition.0 -
Which diseases?
Most? A solid immune system should be able to cope with the more ordinary bacterial & viral onslaughts, acute & chronic stressors, etc. Some portion of vulnerability to/protection against chronic lifestyle diseases (diabetes, atherosclerosis, etc, even dementias) can also be attributed to exercise. Mood disorders, too.
Fitness s/b for as morebean put it the functions of daily life.
I like the WHO's definition of health, which looks at the person in a 'biopsychosocial' context: "Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."
Interesting.
Op, you are getting into tricky territory here. I agree and beleve that "health" has multi dimensions which include physical, mental and spiritual components.
If you want to limit it to physical, which would include many things including health of the body, nutrition can be an important factor. CAN be. Doesn't always end up being the case.
Obviously when one's health deteriorates, they may say they have poor health. But someone can appear to be healthy and not actually be.
In general, I do try to eat a diet of whole foods that are plant based, most of the time. But not all of the time. I do it because I perceive I can get better nutrients from those foods, and luckily I also like the way they taste.
I also, however, firmly believe to each his own. We all have our own journeys to take in all matters of 'health', including all aspects of it. I cannot walk in someone else's shoes and know what is right for them, anymore than they can walk in mine.0 -
Yes, many times an obese person can have great bloodwork and vitals, which is why I included body fat percentage in my OP. Having a high body fat percentage has been shown to increase certain risk factors, so that is definitely something that needs to be managed.
My question is, does having increased risk factors for future maladies make you unhealthy now? If so, is there a distinction between hereditary risk factors and risk factors like higher weight and bf? I generally think health as a very dynamic, of the moment thing. I do think you can be fat and have a high body fat % and still be healthy. I don't think that means you ignore the future potential health risks, but at the same time, it does seem unfair to label somebody as unhealthy unless they actually are - which to me would have to include feeling bad. Which is why I think clean eaters who bemoan poptart eaters as unhealthy are spouting off non-sense.0 -
Which diseases?
Most? A solid immune system should be able to cope with the more ordinary bacterial & viral onslaughts, acute & chronic stressors, etc. Some portion of vulnerability to/protection against chronic lifestyle diseases (diabetes, atherosclerosis, etc, even dementias) can also be attributed to exercise. Mood disorders, too.
Fitness s/b for as morebean put it the functions of daily life.
I like the WHO's definition of health, which looks at the person in a 'biopsychosocial' context: "Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."
Interesting.
Op, you are getting into tricky territory here. I agree and beleve that "health" has multi dimensions which include physical, mental and spiritual components.
If you want to limit it to physical, which would include many things including health of the body, nutrition can be an important factor. CAN be. Doesn't always end up being the case.
Obviously when one's health deteriorates, they may say they have poor health. But someone can appear to be healthy and not actually be.
In general, I do try to eat a diet of whole foods that are plant based, most of the time. But not all of the time. I do it because I perceive I can get better nutrients from those foods, and luckily I also like the way they taste.
I also, however, firmly believe to each his own. We all have our own journeys to take in all matters of 'health', including all aspects of it. I cannot walk in someone else's shoes and know what is right for them, anymore than they can walk in mine.
Wow, I like where you're going with this. I'm not healthy by the definition I quoted. Haven't moved past anger about it, & don't know where my physical health will go, or what it might feel like to live with some of these (comparatively minor) issues long-term. Thanks for opening up thinking about what optimal health could mean, for people living with diseases or disabilities.0 -
lol sorry wheird, none of my answers help with your question. resume plz0
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I've taken health assessment. Physically I'm in ok shape. I fail flexibility. But, I exceed in all the physical tests and I'm normal weight, Bf, etc. but, then they ask questions like, have you had family members die in the last 5 years. Have you moved in the past 3 years. Been through a divorce, bankruptcy? How stressful is your work, etc. they ask many of these qualifying questions and based on how you answer, they provide a score for you. They also ask how much alcohol you drink, how often you eat fast food, and if you smoke. It was kinda interesting because I think I'm healthy as hell, but I've had a lot of adversity over the past 5 years, and so my scores plummeted. According to them, I'm a bit unhealthy. And, they recommend that I take part in yoga or meditation as well as potentially seeking therapy. I feel fine, but these other factors are important for true health. Stress is really a big deal and can negatively impact your good physical health.
This is really so true. I have had a lot of serious stressors to deal with during this past year. I was and am in excellent health by all the tests and how I feel, etc. I thought that I could just be as stressed out as possible and just deal with it. I didn't realize it could have such a big impact on my health. And then I ended up having my hair falling out in handfuls, breaking out in hives, and developing other stress related problems related to my nerves and muscles (that my doctor was able to explain to me were stress related, she noticed and knew right away without me even saying anything). That was all last year. So, I made an effort over the past year to meditate, do yoga, relax, deal with my feelings by talking to loved ones, and just generally face and manage and reduce the stress as much as I could (even though the stressor is still present in my life). I learned a lot about how stress can impact us, and now I know how to manage my stress better (I knew all along how to manage it, I just didn't know it was that important). My hair all grew back in over this year (I got a good haircut as well), and my hair is thick anyway. All of the issues were resolved and did not return.0 -
I would say bloodwork and medical indicators of health, and also what your body can do. In other words if you are "healthy" you should be able to do something more than sit on a couch and watch TV, or walk around or do other ordinary everyday things. Because you don't need to be "healthy" to be able to accomplish those things.0
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There are things that are quantifiable and related to being healthy that might not always work out as a full definition of healthy.
For example, someone talked about the ability to resist disease. You can measure how many times in the course of a couple of years a person caught colds, flus etc. All things being equal, that's a marker of health. But life being kind of complex, they MIGHT have equally robust immune systems, but one is exposed to cold and flu germs a lot more than someone else. Can't compare a preschool teacher with someone who works at home and comes into contact with a lot less bacteria and viruses.
Lack of disease markers--i.e., heart rate, blood pressure, clean stress test at the cardiologist--also are measurable. but there's more to health than that. a person might have no troubling health markers now, but is setting himself up for such markers in the future. And that's really the problem for a lot of obese people; they have no particular problem now, but they will, given enough time.
Energy also can be quantified to some extent, as well as alertness, both markers of health.0 -
By asking them what they eat, and then telling the junk food eater they will get cancer and, "just wait till you're 70," and then declaring the 'clean eater' the winner, thereby proving that clean eating is healthier.It's been well documented that eating an inadequately nutritious diet leaves people more prone to disease, in both the short and the long term.
Which diseases?
And I'm specifically talking about how you measure health. Actual measurables. As in, you must fit this criteria to be considered in the "healthy" class.
Take a scenario of two people. One eats "clean". The other eats what the first person believes is "processed junk". Both are hitting their calorie goal, their macros, and all of the micronutrients they need. A third person has to determine which of the first two is more healthy than the other but doesn't have any idea what they eat. How does that third person measure their health?0 -
There are things that are quantifiable and related to being healthy that might not always work out as a full definition of healthy.
For example, someone talked about the ability to resist disease. You can measure how many times in the course of a couple of years a person caught colds, flus etc. All things being equal, that's a marker of health. But life being kind of complex, they MIGHT have equally robust immune systems, but one is exposed to cold and flu germs a lot more than someone else. Can't compare a preschool teacher with someone who works at home and comes into contact with a lot less bacteria and viruses.
Lack of disease markers--i.e., heart rate, blood pressure, clean stress test at the cardiologist--also are measurable. but there's more to health than that. a person might have no troubling health markers now, but is setting himself up for such markers in the future. And that's really the problem for a lot of obese people; they have no particular problem now, but they will, given enough time.
Energy also can be quantified to some extent, as well as alertness, both markers of health.
But is your ability to resist diseases/colds affected by your diet once you've achieved your necessary nutrition for the day? I can understand if you were lacking certain vitamins/minerals/enzymes, but generally you only need certain levels for optimum nutrition.
How would you quantify energy and alertness? General question, not being combative. It seems to me like it would be rather subjective on this count.0 -
How would you quantify energy and alertness?
alertness - activity of the reticular activating system or dopaminergic system (but); ability to stay focused on a task that's mildly challenging for that person (previously established)
energy - total daily energy expenditure
; number or intensity of essential & non-essential movements per day compared to a baseline (some kind of kinesometer could measure that, fitbit maybe idk; mood (intensity, not direction), compared to a baseline
sorry for 'kinesometer', i am low tech, w/e something that measures movements0 -
lol sorry wheird, none of my answers help with your question. resume plz
I liked your initial quote of the WHO's definition. I know it is pretty high level but I think it brings in some aspects that people tend to ignore on here - the mental and social aspect of it. As others have noted above, stress is a big factor in health. Focusing to much on one aspect can often lead to missing other things. Bringing it back to food, if eating in a way causes stress and isolation, then it would have a less measurable but no less tangible negative impact on health. In the flip side, if eating in a certain way allows less stress and more social interaction, then it can have positive benefits on health. In short, food should not be considered in a vacuum of just micronutrients, but at a more holistic level.0 -
You have an EXTREMELY LIMITED view/perspective of Health. You may Only be including Physical Health and still that is Limited. Health is Soundness in every Measurable Aspect of One's Life: For Me Total Wellness is My Soundness in these areas = Spiritual, Physical, Emotional, Mental, Psychological, Social, Financial and Professional/Career.
Relative to Physical Health, many want to look at longevity, in Reality we have NO control over that...what WE DO have control over is QUALITY of Our Life, in particular our Physical Soundness. Whatever YOU choose to do to maximize the Quality of Your Physical Health is up to You...because you can eat "clean" in YOUR opinion and get cancer, become immobile by arthritis or osteoporosis, hug someone and catch Shingles or chicken pox (as Barbara Walters did ), eat some organic spinach and get ecoli from cow manure or just get hit by a Mac Truck running or riding your bike. Everyone has an opinion on what will enhance everyone's Life but it "Just don't work like that"! So the best we can do is look at statistics for longevity and rates of disease; right now Vegans and Vegetarians (who eat fish once a week or so) lead in these areas.
As some one stated, " It would be nice to Live until you are 75, 85, 90... yrs old. But if you have had arthritis for 30 yrs and in pain constantly or some other disease or laid up in bed, is that a good Life...heck, is that a good death?" So for Me, the first things to do to try and get a Sound Physical Life would be to transition all animal products out of My eating, then all refined products...To argue with anyone over what THEY choose to eat to improve the Quality of their life is ridiculous and hypocritical.0 -
On a side note: I think a lot of people seem to assume just because you follow IIFYM you're eating junk food all day long. In order to hit your macros you still need to eat a lot of healthy foods but it allows room for foods that are processed and a few treats. It isn't like most people who follow IIFYM don't get thir micros in too or completely ignore them. IIFYM just suits modern life better and allows for greater felxibility and things like socialising and eating out sometimes.
In terms of what is healthy - don't forget to include mental health on the list. Physical health and fitness is nothing if your metal health isn't in check0 -
Take a scenario of two people. One eats "clean". The other eats what the first person believes is "processed junk". Both are hitting their calorie goal, their macros, and all of the micronutrients they need. A third person has to determine which of the first two is more healthy than the other but doesn't have any idea what they eat. How does that third person measure their health?
That's a non evidence-based arbitrary snapshot of a sample size of 2. In scientific terms, it's meaningless.0 -
On a side note: I think a lot of people seem to assume just because you follow IIFYM you're eating junk food all day long. In order to hit your macros you still need to eat a lot of healthy foods but it allows room for foods that are processed and a few treats. It isn't like most people who follow IIFYM don't get thir micros in too or completely ignore them. IIFYM just suits modern life better and allows for greater felxibility and things like socialising and eating out sometimes.
In terms of what is healthy - don't forget to include mental health on the list. Physical health and fitness is nothing if your metal health isn't in check
+10 -
I also like WHO's.
I think health is subjective, at least in some part. So much of it has to do with how a person feels and their personal circumstances, that I don't think you aren't going to find a way to take quantifiable measurements.
My problem is that a person at a healthy weight, body fat percentage, and with great lab work results would be called "unhealthy" by some people based on their diet without any way to justify that assertion other than their personal concept of what healthy food is.
My diet is very heavy in eggs, white rice, white bread, fishsticks, oven fries and oven baked meat snacks. I got my lab results back with everything perfectly fine and positive. The only thing that was off is unrelated to my current diet.
A lot of people would call my diet unhealthy, but I feel tons better than I used to and my lab results don't lie. I've replaced a lot of junk with healthier foods and control my portion sizes. I don't do macros because I honestly can't be bothered - with my bloodwork being what it is and my general feeling of increased health, why should I? If I feel I'm low on vitamins because I have off days, I take supplements to assist my body, but I try to get most of my vitamins from fruits and some vegetables. (I'm just not a huge veggie eater)0 -
Take a scenario of two people. One eats "clean". The other eats what the first person believes is "processed junk". Both are hitting their calorie goal, their macros, and all of the micronutrients they need. A third person has to determine which of the first two is more healthy than the other but doesn't have any idea what they eat. How does that third person measure their health?
Well surely things like blood pressure, cholesterol levels? I know its all about calories in vs calories out for weight loss, and that a calorie is a calorie as they say. But I know I would prefer to eat clean, unprocessed foods as much as possible, as I wouldn't want the additional sodium, sugar, sat fat etc, yes those things may not cause me to gain weight, but I don't want my blood pressure to go through the roof if all I do is eat heavily salted food all day -even if it is within my calorie goals.0 -
Take a scenario of two people. One eats "clean". The other eats what the first person believes is "processed junk". Both are hitting their calorie goal, their macros, and all of the micronutrients they need. A third person has to determine which of the first two is more healthy than the other but doesn't have any idea what they eat. How does that third person measure their health?
Well surely things like blood pressure, cholesterol levels? I know its all about calories in vs calories out for weight loss, and that a calorie is a calorie as they say. But I know I would prefer to eat clean, unprocessed foods as much as possible, as I wouldn't want the additional sodium, sugar, trans fat etc, yes those things may not cause me to gain weight, but I don't want my blood pressure to go through the roof if all I do is eat heavily salted food all day -even if it is within my calorie goals.
I have a high sodium/high cholesterol diet through the use of a lot of salt on my oven baked fries/potatoes, sometimes a dozen eggs a week with yolk etc. and my blood pressure and cholesterol are completely fine. I do drink the recommended 8 cups of water a day and I eat a lot of oatmeal, which are both known to reduce blood pressure and cholesterol levels. I also cook everything in canola oil. Perhaps the way a product is prepared can change the way the body processes it and make junk food choices a lot less damaging than most assume?0 -
Lightbulb moment.
I've realised how you can actually decide which of the two individuals is the more healthy.
Throw a bread roll at them and see which one catches it. *science face*0 -
To be healthy is not just about an appearance for me.
I have digestion problems so its is a big thing for me in my diet. I have bad stomach pain after some kind of food, like something too fat or fried. My stomach just cant do the fried food like French fries, last time I had it, i ended up at ER . My doctor prescribed me certain medicine of course AND a diet of food that would be easier to digest.
Because I also want to lose weight, my diet is focused not on just getting healthy, but ALSO weight loss.
I also have allergies and asthma, and have to eliminate some food because of it.
So I don't count calories. I use the MFP for the food diary and success diary.0
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