Overtraining....? Lack of progress...?

RenshiG

Good day everyone,

I have been back working on, yes, my weight, but also my fitness level. Over the last 5 years I have had about 30 lbs creep up on me.... changing relationships, jobs, health... you name it. Mostly however allowing myself to slide into bad habits nutritionally while gradually slacking more and more on physical activity (I developed into a martial arts instructor what is great, but instead of exercising myself now I was standing around most of 20 hours a week... feeling left too tired and with too little time to do anything else given my family & full time job on top of everything).......

About 3 months ago.....

The instruction part became a thing of the past.... I took most of my time back again (I started on another part time job but that is pretty flexible and nowhere near the 20 hours). First I shifted my eating habits a bit and started doing a little cardio... I was shocked, floored, devasted realizing how bad of a shape I was in. I used to be a serious athlete... matter of fact sports was what brought me to the US on a free ride to a pretty good university..... and now I struggled with 10 min of elliptical.... unreal!

About 2 months ago.....

While initially my weight remained the same... which I thought was odd given that I had made a few changes and felt I was doing much better... it suddenly went up from 168lbs to 172lbs. But in the end it made me more serious.

Since then....

I have lost a total of only 4 lbs.... it goes up and down tough with inbetween having been 166lbs, but generally not for long. I also took 2 1/2 weeks going to Germany inbetween where I did not log, was eating what I wanted, rode the bike all day, and came back as 165.8lbs. Right now I am lingering at 168lbs.

I have been training super hard, burning between 450-1000 most days with cardio (I only log the cardio, but also do lifting 3-4 times a week 1/2 hour). Generally I split my workouts into 2-3 sessions (partially do to time constraints partially due to not being able ot do that much at once). I really enjoy working out and feel pleasantly tired and sleepy in the evening. I started going to bed an hour earlier (voluntarily 'cause it just feels good). I initially had my calorie goal set to 1200 but felt that was low so I reset it to 1400. I eat back a portion of my work out calories but my goal is to stay in the 1800s. My BMR is around 1534 and TDEE 1841.. calculated as seditary because I intend control eating back my exercise calories.

CONCERN:
1) I feel 4 lbs of weight loss in 2 months is litte, given I have 30 lbs to go, eat much much better, exercise much much more....
2) Am I training too much? At what point am I overtraining? I think this is my biggest concern. I know when you overtain, undereat etc weightloss is a struggle. I really want to get in shape though so I don't want to necessarily train less unless I absolutly have to. Weightloss is important to me but fitness even more so... esp figuring that one should follow the other? Sigh!

How do I gage, determine whether I am overtraining? :noway:

Do I just need to be paitient for the weightloss to kick in? :huh:

Do I need to change the focus of my exercises? (btw when I weight train I usually alternate upper/lower body trying hard to give my muscles a break).

Any thoughts would be much appreciated!!!!

Thank you!

wilsoje74

What are you doing for cardio and how are you getting the cals burned?

MzManiak

I don't think you are overtraining... (but then you didn't say what, exactly, you are doing)

What is your TDEE at moderately active?

I'd guess you're either over estimating your calorie burn, under estimating your food intake. I'd suggest eating 1600 calories, rather than the 1800.. see how you feel there.

RenshiG

Hi MzManiak, Hello Wilsoje74

Thank you for your response!

At moderate active I receive a TDEE of 2378kcal/day.

Generally I do cardio, with my preferred method of torture being the elliptical... running on the treadmill messes with my knee and bike in the gym always seems to be such a low burn calorie wise that it is discouraging. lol

I like that I can set the intensity relatively high and get a good caloric expenditure from the elliptical and as such it is still my favorite.

I have started to add a little running to my selection, doing about 2-3 times a week. I started barely making it 15 min, but today I made it 25 min at good pace (def faster than before). So I absolutely see an increase in fitness I am very pleased with. Actually I am gambling with the thought of going for another 15 min run this afternoon.

What I have started doing just this last week is I take what the machine gives me (based upon weight & level) and round it down to the next 50. So if the machine tells me I burned 438kcal I write down 400kcal hoping that will compensate a little for overestimating equipment.

This last weekend I felt I did really well with the calories (around 1800), measuring everything etc, burned about 800-1000 kcal not eating them all back.... but was huuuungry. I also felt really sluggish by the end of it.... Yesterday I did 1 session of about 25 min elliptical (given 348kcal - noted down 300kcal) and 10 min upper body low impact in the am, and 25 min low impact on a stationary bike (given 152kcal - noted down 150kcal), and about 30 min of good hard lifting upper body after work. I stuck around 1800kcal for input but still had to go to bed early to not start eating again because I started feeling hungry by about 9pm.

Thank you so much for looking at this! I really appreciate your inputs!

P.S.: I also opened up my diary.

One other thing that is weird is that I really am pushing the weights (and I am not new to lifting) but I am barely to not sore today....

RenshiG

Wow only made it 10min this afternoon. Man it is hot here..... :grumble:

wilsoje74

You may be overestimating your exercise cal burns. Seems high for elliptical??

RenshiG

You may be overestimating your exercise cal burns. Seems high for elliptical??

Hmm by how much do you think they might be over estimating? I thought because they include your weight, age, & rpm etc they would be more accurate. I set the level to really really high to where it really gets pretty hard to move the paddles.

How do you suggest I adjust? Should I take of say 20%? 50%? More?

Do you think the MFP estimates are better? I read somewhere they are overestimated as well?

wilsoje74

How long are you on it? I know for running 100 cal per mile is a general estimate. The machines (elliptical treadmill etc) are generally really high.

RenshiG

My work outs are generally about 20 min long. Sometimes I do two (diff machines) in a row or one in the am and 1 or 2 in the pm.

Last weekend I did 20 min elliptical, then stairs, then treadmill or bike so my total work out was about 1 hour. I don't do that a lot though since it really wears me out. I was freezing by the end of it... which is... prob not good.

Also do you think the weight training makes up for some of the over est? How do figure that into your calorie expenditure?

wilsoje74

My work outs are generally about 20 min long. Sometimes I do two (diff machines) in a row or one in the am and 1 or 2 in the pm.

Last weekend I did 20 min elliptical, then stairs, then treadmill or bike so my total work out was about 1 hour. I don't do that a lot though since it really wears me out. I was freezing by the end of it... which is... prob not good.

Also do you think the weight training makes up for some of the over est? How do figure that into your calorie expenditure?

A 20 min elliptical workout would be about 200 cal max. In my opinion!
Why were you freezing after a workout? Strength can burn some but not a ton. I do hour long strength weight videos and its only about 200 cal burned.

RenshiG

Ok good to know about the strength and def good to know about the elliptical. I think I am just going to use that as a standard going forward.

I think I was over exhausted... maybe dehydraded? Though I do drink a ton of water during the day. I suddenly started freezing at the end of my bike ride, goose bumps and all. It felt my blood pressure was taking a tail dive.... and I don't have much room for it to go down.

The only time I have had that before was when I absolutely overdid it riding my road bike out in the heat. I never had that though inside a climatized set up like the gym I was in. So I might have just pushed a bit too much....

Overall I know I am healthy, just badly out of shape.... I just think my subconcious doesn't want to accept that. And no, I am not getting older.... who does? That's silly.... :-)

Do you have any general rule of thumb for the bike? I think I will use your 1 mile 100 kcal est for running rather than looking at time.

FizikallyFit

my thing was that I wasn't eating enough calories. It is very important that you are eating enough and working out enough

RenshiG

my thing was that I wasn't eating enough calories. It is very important that you are eating enough and working out enough

So where would you set your calories if you were me.... it might have been I hadn't eaten enough those days, but overall given my BMR/TDEE above and the exercise discussion... what would you set as your target?

wilsoje74

I think you are eating plenty.

RenshiG

I think you are eating plenty.

Do you think it is too much?
Should I go down to 1600?

Mr_Knight

I have started to add a little running to my selection, doing about 2-3 times a week. I started barely making it 15 min, but today I made it 25 min at good pace (def faster than before).

Is there a number (eg speed, distance) attached to the "good pace"?

lilawolf

Go post this is the Eat, train, progress forum Sarah and Sidesteel really know what they are talking about and have advised hundreds if not thousands of people by now. You may even get your answer by reading through the stickies there.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/forums/show/10067-eat-train-progress-

Good luck!

AndreaL0918

Question to all...If you wear a heart rate monitor will that give you more accurate cal burn? I walked mod fast 3/ jogged 1 mile and my heart rate monitor said I burned 600 today. Just wondering if heart rate monitors over estimate too?!

Thanks!
Andrea

ilovemilkymoos

Have you considered that you may be gaining muscle mass while losing fat?
If you're doing heavy lifting (or any real lifting in fact) the weight loss may not be representative of your actual body composition?

I was in a similar position to you, started out doing a mix of lifting and cardio. Weight stayed pretty much the same for 2-3 months and started to get disheartened until i started to see clear body changes.

I went and got a DEXA scan to give me a starting point, and used photos to track my progess. I'll be getting another DEXA soon, just to see how far I've come!

ellew70

Question to all...If you wear a heart rate monitor will that give you more accurate cal burn? I walked mod fast 3/ jogged 1 mile and my heart rate monitor said I burned 600 today. Just wondering if heart rate monitors over estimate too?!

Thanks!
Andrea

Depends on the kind. The kind with the chest strap will give you a decently accurate reading. The wrist kind that you put your fingers on will not be as accurate because the monitor is essentially having to fill in the blanks between readings. It's using a mathematical algorithm to estimate but its not actual.

This is why I hate the eat back your calorie method. There is really not good way to get a decent read on calories burned. TDEE minus 20% is probably better.

cwolfman13

For your TDEE you might want to just try an average of light active and moderate active. It is possible that you are on the lower end of light active...which would mean some weight loss, but it would be pretty slow if you were starting with that as the base and deducting your 20% or whatever.

When I did my TDEE I started out kinda high myself because I really felt like I was doing a lot of exercise and also running around chasing a 1 y.o. and 3 y.o....turns out I'm more of an average of moderate and light active. Also, you can just play with your calories a little...if you've gone 4-6 weeks and you're not seeing the progress, dial it down 100 calories or something (provided of course that you're not under eating)

RenshiG

I have started to add a little running to my selection, doing about 2-3 times a week. I started barely making it 15 min, but today I made it 25 min at good pace (def faster than before).

Is there a number (eg speed, distance) attached to the "good pace"?

I always logged it at 10min miles to be on the save side calorie wise and I think that is what I started with. Today was much more an 8 min mile. :-)
Maybe 8 1/2. But I do not think any slower.

RenshiG

Have you considered that you may be gaining muscle mass while losing fat?
If you're doing heavy lifting (or any real lifting in fact) the weight loss may not be representative of your actual body composition?

I was in a similar position to you, started out doing a mix of lifting and cardio. Weight stayed pretty much the same for 2-3 months and started to get disheartened until i started to see clear body changes.

I went and got a DEXA scan to give me a starting point, and used photos to track my progess. I'll be getting another DEXA soon, just to see how far I've come!

I think I really might have to look at other measures. I feel goofy with the tape and don't know I can measure correctly and I do not have access to high tech methods. Maybe I just need to get over it and use the tape.
I tried to judge whether my pants/cloth fit differently and as far as I can tell that is not so. :-(
I do feel stronger though and maybe I am building muscle. I read however in some sections of MFP that you don't really gain muscle when losing fat at a deficit? Is that true?

RenshiG

For your TDEE you might want to just try an average of light active and moderate active. It is possible that you are on the lower end of light active...which would mean some weight loss, but it would be pretty slow if you were starting with that as the base and deducting your 20% or whatever.

When I did my TDEE I started out kinda high myself because I really felt like I was doing a lot of exercise and also running around chasing a 1 y.o. and 3 y.o....turns out I'm more of an average of moderate and light active. Also, you can just play with your calories a little...if you've gone 4-6 weeks and you're not seeing the progress, dial it down 100 calories or something (provided of course that you're not under eating)

I am def looking into adjusting my overall calories. But since I am still concerned about overtraining etc I am def going to take it slow.
100kcal sounds reasonable though. :-)

wilsoje74

I have started to add a little running to my selection, doing about 2-3 times a week. I started barely making it 15 min, but today I made it 25 min at good pace (def faster than before).

Is there a number (eg speed, distance) attached to the "good pace"?

I always logged it at 10min miles to be on the save side calorie wise and I think that is what I started with. Today was much more an 8 min mile. :-)
Maybe 8 1/2. But I do not think any slower.

Wow that is really fast! I've been running for a couple years and my fastest is 9. What is your weight training program? An hour of cardio and some weights doesn't seem to be too much, but you could do strength on opposite days of your cardio if you feel it's too much. If you aren't losing like you want, you are either underestimating your good cals or overestimating your exercise cals.

RenshiG

Wow that is really fast! I've been running for a couple years and my fastest is 9. What is your weight training program? An hour of cardio and some weights doesn't seem to be too much, but you could do strength on opposite days of your cardio if you feel it's too much. If you aren't losing like you want, you are either underestimating your good cals or overestimating your exercise cals.

I used to do a lot of 2-3 mile running all my life to support my tennis training... which is what I did very seriously. I guess that helps get back to the time I have. We used to have a girl on the team who finished a mile (of two) in way under 7 min. That was killing me... I never could get close to her. LOL I was always very competitive so that just didn't sit well with me.

... asides I have to admit... I am not a fan of jogging.... I run to get it over with lol.. I actually struggle going slow.

Weight wise I am still sort of following the body for life method (EAS) which has worked great for me in the past but must admit I am still only doing 3/4 of the exercises per workout mainly due to time constraints (the workouts are about 45 min and generally I have a little more than 1/2).

Thinking about it like this.....Maybe I SHOULD look at my schedule and and not do both in one day... I do about 20-25 min of cardio before lifting... if I was to do just a 5 min warm up I would have enough time to do a full lifting routine in...

The program generally targets upper and lower separate
It Takes 2 exercises per muscle group (ex. biceps), a primary with which you do 12, 10, 8, 6, 12 reps, a secondary with 12 reps. The purpose is to increase your intensity with each set... subjectively feeling you are doing a level 5, 6, 7,8, 9 of intensity, and a 10 with the secondary (out of 10, level 5 nice little warm up, 9 you finish but you contemplate whether you could, 10 you basically are barely if at all going to make the last 1-2 reps of the set). You take 30 sec rest between sets except when you switch between primary & secondary... no rest there.... and I take a min between muscle groups. There are generally about 4-5 muscle groups in a work out.

More here:
http://bodyforlife.com/library/exercise/weight-training

Maybe I really need to split my days more clearly into cardio & weights. I have been so focused on burning calories and getting my stamina up I have been sort of obsessing with cardio. But then estimating my calories will be even harder... sigh....

MissMormie

What are you training for? Fitness? But what is that to you?

I recommend slitting your weight goal into two separate goals that you'll track separately as well.

1. Losing weight 90% of losing weight is eating healthy. So track your calories as you've been doing and making sure you get in enough protein (to build those muscles).
2. get fitter Determine what your fitness goals are. Do you want to run a 5k? Do you want to keep a certain pace, do you want to bike for 40km? Do you want to do a deadlift with 250lbs? By setting those goals you'll be able to set a training schedule and see you're making progress. Also, if you're constantly not able to meet your schedule, staying at the same level or even sliding back you'll know you've been overtraining.

I would suggest cutting down on the cardio a bit. Yes it burns calories, but I very much doubt it's sustainable. Better to find something you can do for the next 10 years rather than a max of 10 months.

wilsoje74

20-60 min of cardio is not that much, I'd say its sustainable.

sijomial

My weight is very similar to yours and I think your exercise calories are grossly exagerated. 450 cals for 20mins is very dubious I'm afraid.

I did a session on a Spinning bike yesterday to test my maximum effort over an hour and didn't quite manage to get to 800 cals.
Running at 8mph (7.5 minute mile) for 15 mins would only be about 220 for me.

A decent HRM might be a good investment.

RenshiG

My weight is very similar to yours and I think your exercise calories are grossly exagerated. 450 cals for 20mins is very dubious I'm afraid.

I did a session on a Spinning bike yesterday to test my maximum effort over an hour and didn't quite manage to get to 800 cals.
Running at 8mph (7.5 minute mile) for 15 mins would only be about 220 for me.

A decent HRM might be a good investment.

Ouch...... Thank you for sharing.... though.... that sucks! Blargh! lol

I definitely need to adjust my perception of "burned" it appears. I think I will go with what was suggested to basically use a flat 100kcal for a good intensity 10 min work out or 1 mile run.

As much as reallity sometimes sucks I am really greatful for all of yours' feedback on this.

Blast those machines giving you false hope!

RenshiG

What are you training for? Fitness? But what is that to you?

I recommend slitting your weight goal into two separate goals that you'll track separately as well.

1. Losing weight 90% of losing weight is eating healthy. So track your calories as you've been doing and making sure you get in enough protein (to build those muscles).
2. get fitter Determine what your fitness goals are. Do you want to run a 5k? Do you want to keep a certain pace, do you want to bike for 40km? Do you want to do a deadlift with 250lbs? By setting those goals you'll be able to set a training schedule and see you're making progress. Also, if you're constantly not able to meet your schedule, staying at the same level or even sliding back you'll know you've been overtraining.

I would suggest cutting down on the cardio a bit. Yes it burns calories, but I very much doubt it's sustainable. Better to find something you can do for the next 10 years rather than a max of 10 months.

MissMormie,

This is a really good question!

I have been sort of wishy washy about this. I know ultimately I would like to see my weight back around 142-145 which is a good & health & easily sustainable weight for me (about 25lbs to go). But I really want to just be in good shape too. I always thought to myself I want to be physically able to do everything I need to do, be it handle all my furniture during a move, clear out the yard after a storm, keep up with the kids, dog, husband etc (sorry I know that sounds silly but I don't know how to explain it better but basically a good life balance for an active life style of cardio, strength and flexibility with high standards for myself)

I don't really have a specific measurable goal though or target to work towards. I would like to actually see my muscles (definition etc.) but again, hardly measurable.... except maybe setting a body fat % goal? I always was involved in some sort of organized sport and had my goals there... which always worked really well for me..... but not anymore and I really don't want to get back into any structured (scheduled/managed by someone else like a team) commitment. Done it for years and the last several years it was really draining on my family esp. while we are going through very volitile schedules with our kids thanks to custody issues etc. I have been enjoying fitting things in as I can.

I used to do a lot of road biking (boy did the weight drop off), but then got hit by a car badly (recovered, still with a dent in my leg but fully functional heh) and haven't really dared since then to get back into it (since my road bike got totalled I haven't reinvested into another one.... sooo I would have to do that since if I do something I want to do it all the way... sigh!)

I always enjoyed weights, agility type stuff (but not sure how to train that on my own). I had looked at a Spartan race but none are close by and I don't really know how to train for those (esp without getting injured.... I have a thing about jumping... it freaks me out.... I have broken my ankles about 6 times due to jumping or jumping of something and rolling it..... sooooooo getting goosebumps right now just writing about it)


So with that being said.... asides from running (ex 5K.... not liking the running) do you have any other suggestions? 'Cause the more I think about it the more i like the idea actually of working towards a more specific goal.....