Teen Bodybuilding for Strength not Show - Weight lifting

JNick77

get him the book 'starting strength' and stock up on milk teenagers don't tend to have a problem eating so you probably won't need to get whey/supplements etc.

pretty sure this programme was designed for teenagers.

It was most certainly designed with the crossover into practical strength for sports; particularly football.

I would support this also, as long as the gym he has access to has a power rack he needn't worry about needing a training partner. I have lifted alone ever since I started doing barbell lifts.

Was looking at this on Amazon. Do you know if there is any difference worth noting in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd editions? Which edition do you have?

Seriously, SS is NOT the correct program for an athlete. Not trying to be a jerk but if you want to best and simplest method for your son, then Westside for Skinny *kitten* 3 is it. It's a complete year-round program that focuses on what's important.

Every 5 pounds slows an LD down a certain percent. I've read multiple studies from various universities on the same subject (yeah, I'm a runner . Even if he remains at speed or even increases speed he won't be as fast as if he still had the XC physique.

Again, this may sound ****ty but it's not my intent... Please clarify because I'm not sure I understand what conclusions this study is reporting or what conclusions are being drawn from the study.

Here's the thing, Cross-Country is not a speed sport and speed is not necessarily trained in XC. Speed is developed by the amount of force applied to the ground, not endurance, not how fast you move your legs; speed is something that is trained with athletes. I can guarantee that a 300lb NFL lineman can run a 40-yard dash faster than a pro marathon runner because the training is completely different. However, that same marathon runner will most likely finish a 10-mile run WELL ahead of that same lineman.

If he improved his Back Squat by 50lbs or more and improved something like his Box Jump and / or Broad Jump, then I guarantee that he will be faster off-the-line and in sprinting situations even if he put on 10lbs. Yes, this would most likely have a negative effect on his XC time though. That's why I said earlier, training for Football and training for Cross Country do not compliment each other. He can definitely only be good at one or the other. Unless he's a genetic freak, which is a good thing, and can naturally do both.

cyndispot

Saving for Jace. thanks for all the great info.

DrMAvDPhD

It's going to come down a lot more to diet than exercise. A teenage boy should have plenty of the right hormones to build muscle if properly fueled, but he'll be burning up a lot of calories just by growing, being active, and distance running. Can you take him to a sports oriented nutritionist? I'm guessing he'll need to be in the 3500-4000 calorie range to do any real amount of bulking.

A simple Stronglifts 5x5 type program would likely suffice, at least at first.

Huffdogg

get him the book 'starting strength' and stock up on milk teenagers don't tend to have a problem eating so you probably won't need to get whey/supplements etc.

pretty sure this programme was designed for teenagers.

It was most certainly designed with the crossover into practical strength for sports; particularly football.

I would support this also, as long as the gym he has access to has a power rack he needn't worry about needing a training partner. I have lifted alone ever since I started doing barbell lifts.

Was looking at this on Amazon. Do you know if there is any difference worth noting in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd editions? Which edition do you have?

I have the third edition. I believe the differences are mostly editorial, but I'm not certain. I don't disagree with what others have said about there being better programs out there, but I find SS to be a great starter program for just about anyone.

bostonwolf

My teen is an XC runner. He's in kick *kitten* shape and pretty darn fast (youngest kid but 3rd fastest on XC team). The hs football coach noticed he has a "pretty decent" arm on him and catches just about anything (he throws FB all the time with whoever's around) and that he's crazy fast even for short distances (he used to be corner/tight end/receiver). The hs football coach would like him to join hs FB and I've said "No way, Jose, not until you are a little thicker". He needs to be thick enough to take a hit and lately he's lost weight. He's a smart kid and understands why he has to be a little thicker so he's shooting for next year's team.

So my question. What's do you think is the best long term weight lifting program for a teen who's going to tone down the 10 mile runs and move towards 2 - 4 mile runs adding in lifting for strength and flexibility (he does crossfit now and he's comfortable with chin ups, pull ups, light medicine ball, light weights, sit-ups, etc.). Though he'll be running track (track coach would probably have kittens if he quit the 2 mile since he's fastest on the team), he wants to get started now.

Time frame is long runs until November with lifting, then short runs starting in November with more intense lifting.

No supplements so no programs that rely on those. He's still a kid and doc says he's a slow grower so he'll probably keep growing for the next three years at least. He OK'd Muscle Milk and a simple whey protein shake but that is it.

Stronglifts 5x5 with some powerlifting (cleans, clean and jerk, snatch) would do it for him. He just needs to make sure he eats enough (probably more than the thinks he CAN eat) to gain the muscle.

I'd look at Isopure Low Carb protein over muscle milk just to avoid the sugar, but a protein supplement is probably a good idea.

The biggest thing for him to remember (and the toughest for a teenager with that much energy) is that you do not build muscle when you lift. You build muscle when you rest and recover AFTER lifting. Stronglifts is 3 times a week, full body routine each time. More info on it here:

http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-training-program/

The guy who started it is kind of a sexist douche, but the program is solid. Have the FB coach go over form with him on all the lifts and have his start with the bar (as the program suggests) and add 5lbs/week. This makes the early focus on proper form over all else and will serve him well when the weight starts to add up (and it will....much quicker than he thinks.)

Just one option, but one that added noticable muscle to this 43 year old. It would work wonders on someone younger.

bostonwolf

get him the book 'starting strength' and stock up on milk teenagers don't tend to have a problem eating so you probably won't need to get whey/supplements etc.

pretty sure this programme was designed for teenagers.

It was most certainly designed with the crossover into practical strength for sports; particularly football.

I would support this also, as long as the gym he has access to has a power rack he needn't worry about needing a training partner. I have lifted alone ever since I started doing barbell lifts.

Was looking at this on Amazon. Do you know if there is any difference worth noting in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd editions? Which edition do you have?

Great book. The most recent version has better illustrations. His tips on deadlifts (just on form, foot placement etc) resulted in something like a 20 pound PR the day I implemented them. Technique matters. A lot.

bostonwolf

Just to note, you don't have to be big to play, strong helps though. In my first year high school (I started at slot and WR, and was back-up running back) at 5'6" 136lbs.

I would suggest a program that focuses on the Big compound lifts at a heavy weight. And have him eat at a surplus, this may be 4000 cals or so a day if he is very active.

He's 5'7" and 120 lbs. Even 16 pounds would help. I'll help him work on the calories.

If he starts lifting he'll put on the weight so long as he's eating. I'm guessing the girls will be impressed as well, if he needs a bit of extra motivation

_noob_

Just for example I'll give the workout THAT OUR FB TEAM ACTUALLY DID...for better or worse.

We had 3 guys to a group with 30 seconds between whistles. 15 seconds to set up weight for the next lifter (so 1:30 between sets). We did 3 sets of (all barbell) Bench press, backsquats, incline press (VERY inclined, so almost a seated shoulder press), pullups/dip station (so less rest on that station), and hang cleans. We'd do 15, 12, 8, 5 and 3 reps and then repeat back at 15 by weeks.

We could do some "beach" muscles as coach called them after doing the rest of the workout, but usually you were spent.

Granted we weren't that modern where I'm sure some schools tailor the auxiliary work for the individual positions, but SS, stronglifts and the like are just workouts to get you "strong". With a good strength base (the point of starting strength) the lifter can decide where they want to go from there.

IMO one shouldn't overcomplicate stuff in the beginning.

JNick77

Stronglifts 5x5 with some powerlifting (cleans, clean and jerk, snatch) would do it for him. He just needs to make sure he eats enough (probably more than the thinks he CAN eat) to gain the muscle.

SL5x5 with some Powerlifting? Okay, so aside from the OHP and BB Row, the Bench Press, Deadlift, and Squat ARE powerlifting exercises. Cleans, Clean and Jerk, and Snatch are Olympic style lifting. If you're going to give advice you should really understand what you're talking about. Isopure low-carb protein? Seriously pretty much any Whey Protein is more than sufficient, just don't buy the pre-made bottle stuff.

I know this site has a lot of beginners and SL5x5 and SS have been huge for people, and that's great, but those two routines are not the end-all-be-all to strength training, there are CONSIDERABLY better methods. Quite frankly, they suck for somebody that is an athlete and has a limited window of opportunity to get stronger. By limited window I mean off-season versus in-season, it's really not a lot of time.

I could only wish I had this kind of information available to me when I was a high school athlete because our coach had us doing some crap like _noob_ mentioned above. I remember doing these huge pyramids too. LOL! Not horrible but definitely not optimal. That's not a shot at noob but he's looks like he's about my age and our coaches were grossly misinformed about lifting back then. Sure we got stronger but most of us never reached our full potential.

WS4SB3 is super simple. Here's an example Dynamic Effort Lower Body day
A. Broad Jumps: 5-8 sets for 3 jumps
B. Bulgarian Split Squats 2-3 sets of 8-10 reps
C. Romanian Deadlift 3 sets of 8-12 reps
D. Hanging Leg Raises 4 sets of 10-15 reps
<DONE>
How is that complicated???

Example Max Effort Upper Body day
A. Bench Press work up to a 3 or 5 rep max
B. DB Bench Press: 2sets minimum 15 reps and work-up to a max reps
C1. DB Rows 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps
C2. Face Pulls 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps
D. DB or BB Shrugs 3-4 sets of 8-15 reps
E. BB Curls 3-4 sets of 8-15 reps
<DONE> Complicated???

bostonwolf

The kid is 14, he can likely handle adding one Olympic movement to each workout. If not, he can drop them or replace OHP with clean and jerk. His football coach should be able to guide him there better than any of us can. Just throwing out options.

As you said, there are many options available now as opposed to when I was younger and Muscle&Fitness was pretty much the only readily available source of advice.

phjorg1

Also rechiming in with jnick. Just do westside. It's designed for strength athletes. doing SL is a waste as you will do it to only have to do westside later on due to lack of true power and speed training.

Don't get me wrong, SL and ss are great templates for untrained sedentary beginners and are my go to recommendation for people in that category. But actual athletics require a different beast. SL just isnt enough.

JNick77

His football coach should be able to guide him there better than any of us can. Just throwing out options.

If only that were true. Neither of my football coaches (I went to two schools) or either of my former step-sons coaches had a clue either. Most really don't. Just because they're a football coach doesn't mean they're well versed in strength training too. Heck, just because they might be a gym teacher doesn't mean they know either. Look how many licensed trainers are out there that are horrible and clueless. That's why even at the college level, football teams have their own dedicated strength coaches because coaches don't know and they need to spend time on football.

Don't get me wrong, SL and ss are great templates for untrained sedentary beginners and are my go to recommendation for people in that category. But actual athletics require a different beast. SL just isnt enough.

Agreed. Heck, if her son was just going to do XC then I would probably suggest just sticking with something like SL5x5. But sports that require ballistic / explosive movements need something more. Football, breaking off the line of scrimmage, quickly delivering a hit, Baseball - Swinging a bat, Soccer - Kicking, Basketball - jumping for a rebound, Field events - Shot put / Discus (spelling?), hell even Golf with the forward swing of the club are all examples of explosive movements that take a second or less to execute. This is where Max Effort and Dynamic Effort come into play. Prescribing the full-blow Westside method would probably be too complicated but Joe DeFranco's modification is perfect. Again, there's the whole dealing with in-season training and off-season training and you don't train the same way during both seasons. Just because he might be 14 doesn't mean you have to dumb-down the training.

Huffdogg

Stronglifts 5x5 with some powerlifting (cleans, clean and jerk, snatch)

Not to split hairs, but those aren't powerlifting movements. They are the oly lifts.

leslisa

Interesting feedback. Thank you all. I'm going to review each plan separately noting what has been said about each before deciding which to recommend to him. I really am not worried about the FB coach right now as my son won't be training with him until the summer.

Just three weeks 2 more days of XC and he'll be starting his new program though (yes, he is counting down).

MisterDerpington

Starting Strength in the off-season would probably work great for him. Looking at Startingstrength.com.

JNick77

Starting Strength in the off-season would probably work great for him. Looking at Startingstrength.com.

:sad: :sad:

MisterDerpington

Starting Strength in the off-season would probably work great for him. Looking at Startingstrength.com.

:sad: :sad:

y u sad? I saw the comment about SS being good for untrained beginners, but when it comes to strength training, that's what I got from OP. That her kid hasn't lifted before. Frankly Westside just seems overly complicated for a beginner.

JNick77

Starting Strength in the off-season would probably work great for him. Looking at Startingstrength.com.

:sad: :sad:

y u sad? I saw the comment about SS being good for untrained beginners, but when it comes to strength training, that's what I got from OP. That her kid hasn't lifted before. Frankly Westside just seems overly complicated for a beginner.

Just re-read the entire thread and you'll understand my response.

MisterDerpington

Starting Strength in the off-season would probably work great for him. Looking at Startingstrength.com.

:sad: :sad:

y u sad? I saw the comment about SS being good for untrained beginners, but when it comes to strength training, that's what I got from OP. That her kid hasn't lifted before. Frankly Westside just seems overly complicated for a beginner.

Just re-read the entire thread and you'll understand my response.

Rippetoe himself has addressed this I believe. Basically saying that strength training in the off-season should focus on strength. The translation into the sport will be applied through sports-specific training during the season. Also, there are accessory lifts that can be added to SS which are talked about in the book; chin-ups being the one he said should be added pretty early on. I need to look more into DeFranco's program, but when I hear Westside, I think of Dynamic Effort/Max Effort Upper and Lower body days. For someone who (from what I'm interpreting from OP's posts) hasn't done any serious weight training, I believe that's not the right road.

EDIT: To your point about Explosiveness, Power Cleans are included in SS, but the whole idea is that a novice strength program is to focus on strength, and after that short novice period where he gains a lot of strength, he can move onto an intermediate program where he focuses on translating his new strength to his sport.

JNick77

Starting Strength in the off-season would probably work great for him. Looking at Startingstrength.com.

:sad: :sad:

y u sad? I saw the comment about SS being good for untrained beginners, but when it comes to strength training, that's what I got from OP. That her kid hasn't lifted before. Frankly Westside just seems overly complicated for a beginner.

Just re-read the entire thread and you'll understand my response.

Rippetoe himself has addressed this I believe. Basically saying that strength training in the off-season should focus on strength. The translation into the sport will be applied through sports-specific training during the season. Also, there are accessory lifts that can be added to SS which are talked about in the book; chin-ups being the one he said should be added pretty early on. I need to look more into DeFranco's program, but when I hear Westside, I think of Dynamic Effort/Max Effort Upper and Lower body days. For someone who (from what I'm interpreting from OP's posts) hasn't done any serious weight training, I believe that's not the right road.

EDIT: To your point about Explosiveness, Power Cleans are included in SS, but the whole idea is that a novice strength program is to focus on strength, and after that short novice period where he gains a lot of strength, he can move onto an intermediate program where he focuses on translating his new strength to his sport.

I suggest you read the Westside For Skinny *kitten* 3 method then before making the above assumptions. I've trained beginners, specifically teenagers that played football and they're quite durable and capable of great strength gains if they're not treated like fragile idiots. This is his 3rd iteration of his method and he calls it "Skinny *kitten*" for a reason. In other words people without muscle, beginners. Joe trains plenty of teenage athletes, that's part of why he developed this program.

Expand your horizons on strength training. Read stuff from Charles Poliquin, Louie Simmons, Chad Wesley Smith, Dave Tate, Jim Wendler, Brandon Lily, Christian Thibideau, Eric Cressey, Joe DeFranco, Chad Waterbury, John Meadows, old Russian manuals on things like the Bulgarian Method, etc. I know that I'm leaving out several great strength coaches too. Beginners don't have to be limited to a "Beginners" program. Louie himself said he would have no problem starting a beginner on the full blown Westside Method and the man doesn't need the money from his books, his reputation and results speak for themselves. DeFranco is the same way. He doesn't recruit people, athletes go to him. If you're going to talk about strength training at least have the knowledge of what is out there, how it works, and why it works or doesn't work for various things. Members of this site are far too dogmatic and married to concepts like Starting Strength and SL5x5 because of it's simplicity and it's the first thing they've tried and gotten results with. There's nothing wrong with that, if you get results and enjoy the program then keep truckin' with that method until it no longer addresses your goals. BUT it doesn't mean there are different and / or better ways of doing things, especially for training athletes.

My response wasn't intended to be ****ty or even 100% directed at you but rather this site in general. The tunnel vision that people have and want to argue with experienced people is a little frustrating. I don't contend to be an expert and there are many people, including a few on MFP, that I look up to and have a lot of respect for their advice and opinion.

Okay, I've vented enough and I feel like the horse has been beat to death on this topic. I'm out.

MisterDerpington

Starting Strength in the off-season would probably work great for him. Looking at Startingstrength.com.

:sad: :sad:

y u sad? I saw the comment about SS being good for untrained beginners, but when it comes to strength training, that's what I got from OP. That her kid hasn't lifted before. Frankly Westside just seems overly complicated for a beginner.

Just re-read the entire thread and you'll understand my response.

Rippetoe himself has addressed this I believe. Basically saying that strength training in the off-season should focus on strength. The translation into the sport will be applied through sports-specific training during the season. Also, there are accessory lifts that can be added to SS which are talked about in the book; chin-ups being the one he said should be added pretty early on. I need to look more into DeFranco's program, but when I hear Westside, I think of Dynamic Effort/Max Effort Upper and Lower body days. For someone who (from what I'm interpreting from OP's posts) hasn't done any serious weight training, I believe that's not the right road.

EDIT: To your point about Explosiveness, Power Cleans are included in SS, but the whole idea is that a novice strength program is to focus on strength, and after that short novice period where he gains a lot of strength, he can move onto an intermediate program where he focuses on translating his new strength to his sport.

I suggest you read the Westside For Skinny *kitten* 3 method then before making the above assumptions. I've trained beginners, specifically teenagers that played football and they're quite durable and capable of great strength gains if they're not treated like fragile idiots. This is his 3rd iteration of his method and he calls it "Skinny *kitten*" for a reason. In other words people without muscle, beginners. Joe trains plenty of teenage athletes, that's part of why he developed this program.

Expand your horizons on strength training. Read stuff from Charles Poliquin, Louie Simmons, Chad Wesley Smith, Dave Tate, Jim Wendler, Brandon Lily, Christian Thibideau, Eric Cressey, Joe DeFranco, Chad Waterbury, John Meadows, old Russian manuals on things like the Bulgarian Method, etc. I know that I'm leaving out several great strength coaches too. Beginners don't have to be limited to a "Beginners" program. Louie himself said he would have no problem starting a beginner on the full blown Westside Method and the man doesn't need the money from his books, his reputation and results speak for themselves. DeFranco is the same way. He doesn't recruit people, athletes go to him. If you're going to talk about strength training at least have the knowledge of what is out there, how it works, and why it works or doesn't work for various things. Members of this site are far too dogmatic and married to concepts like Starting Strength and SL5x5 because of it's simplicity and it's the first thing they've tried and gotten results with. There's nothing wrong with that, if you get results and enjoy the program then keep truckin' with that method until it no longer addresses your goals. BUT it doesn't mean there are different and / or better ways of doing things, especially for training athletes.

My response wasn't intended to be ****ty or even 100% directed at you but rather this site in general. The tunnel vision that people have and want to argue with experienced people is a little frustrating. I don't contend to be an expert and there are many people, including a few on MFP, that I look up to and have a lot of respect for their advice and opinion.

Okay, I've vented enough and I feel like the horse has been beat to death on this topic. I'm out.

I know more about strength training methods than my weight or lift totals let on. I've read most of Wendler's 5/3/1 books. I've seen many videos by DeFranco and Louie Simmons and I've gotten some personal training from an Elitefts powerlifter (Brian Schwab). I may drink the Kool-Aid with Rippetoe, but that's because I was on his site for a while and saw in the forums the hoards of people it helped and saw him explain the program himself in interviews and through forum Q&A. I admit it's not for me even, but I have read posts by those in high school sports (such as football) for whom the program worked. That's where I draw my recommendation from. I agree that SS (and even more the SS rip-off SL 5x5) gets pushed hard around here, and I do agree it's not the only program to give results, but I have seen it working for people.

P.S. You have piqued my interest in DeFranco's program. I'm not committed to any program really, so I'm going to check it out.