When would you start your first bulk?

jollyjoe321

Hi there,

I'll start off with some stats first in case they help.

SW: 186
CW: Around 155
Age: 18
Male


Been dieting since December 2012, lifting weights since April 2013, but really I've just been on one long cut. I've made strength gains but naturally, haven't really made any gains in size. I'm aiming to only bulk up a bit, not to huge bodybuilder size, but maybe an extra stone in muscle?

I'm just getting to the point now where you can see the outline of abs, and I'm considering starting on a bulk, but would it be more beneficial if I started it at a lighter weight?

Complete newbie to bulks/cuts, so need all the help I can get!

Also, any bulk I do would not be with a huge surplus, I'm talking perhaps 2-300 calories over TDEE every day, if that sounds good?

Also, any lifting programmes you guys use would be good, absolutely no idea what I'm doing!

Thanks in advance,

J

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jollyjoe321

5"9
I'm about 20% judging by this: http://www.builtlean.com/2012/09/24/body-fat-percentage-men-women/
At work unfortunately so cannot sort out any pictures!
I want to be around the 15% bf mark, and don't particularly want to follow a huge bulk/cut cycle
I currently do my own thing, usually: Chest Press, Shoulder Press, Pullups (Triceps), Chinups (Biceps), Pectoral Flies, Crunches, Arm Extensions, Bicep Curls, Leg Press

jacksonpt

The "benefit" will be the same regardless - added muscle mass.

IMO, then "when should I start" question is all about personal preference. Some time it around the holidays when they know they are going to be eating more (rather than trying to cut when all that food is around). Some start and stop based on body fat % or scale weight. Personally, I bulk when I can afford to look and feel a little more sloppy, which is generally mid-late winter for me.

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jollyjoe321

I don't feel fat, I feel I could look better with a bit less weight, but I don't feel fat at all!

Barbellgirl

I'm not an expert but it sure doesn't sound like bulking is what you want to do, not in the sense that bodybuilders do it anyway. Bulking is something usually done when a person is at a very low bodyfat to start with. It sounds like you really just need to focus on recomposition. I think you'd do well by eating at maintenance and lifting heavy 3-4 times a week and add in a little cardio on the non lifting days. That would help you to gradually build muscle, and lose a little bit of fat. Good luck.

P.S. add some more lifts for your legs like barbell squats and dead lifts. It will help you produce more of the hormones that stimulate muscle growth.

jeffpettis

I don't feel fat, I feel I could look better with a bit less weight, but I don't feel fat at all!

Going by that statement, you should probably try to cut down to a little less BF. Most people cut to around 10-12%BF but that depends on the individual, then bulk to around 15%, again, depends on the individual. If you feel like at this point you still have some fat to lose, do it now. You will gain some fat while bulking no matter what. Obviously you want to keep the fat gain to a minimum but it's going to happen. Also sounds like your BF% estimate may be a little off right now because 20% at your height and weight seems way high, unless you have very little LBM. Sounds like you might actually be more like 15% or so right now, again, unless you have very little LBM. Hope this helps

jeffpettis

I'm not an expert but it sure doesn't sound like bulking is what you want to do, not in the sense that bodybuilders do it anyway. Bulking is something usually done when a person is at a very low bodyfat to start with. It sounds like you really just need to focus on recomposition. I think you'd do well by eating at maintenance and lifting heavy 3-4 times a week and add in a little cardio on the non lifting days. That would help you to gradually build muscle, and lose a little bit of fat. Good luck.

P.S. add some more lifts for your legs like barbell squats and dead lifts. It will help you produce more of the hormones that stimulate muscle growth.

No offense... But the lifting and cardio to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time is not going to work. First because eating at maintenance is not going to support muscle growth. Second, eating at maintenance is not going to support fat loss. Yes, I agree, body recomp is "possible" but painfully slow, and should only be used by someone that is right around where they want to stay.

jollyjoe321

Thanks Lenora, your suggestion sounds the most appealing actually, thanks!

I tend to notice that at the gym, when I workout, mainly on Bench and Shoulder Press, I lift as much as some guys who are bigger than me, which, although satisfying, is also annoying as outwardly I don't have a great deal to show for it! :sad:

jollyjoe321

Woops, took too long replying, missed a couple.

My estimate might have been a bit off as I think the images I used for reference were guys who had a decent amount of muscle already, maybe it could be a bit lower, I could quote the figures I lift but I suspect you cannot really judge from that!

M1KEEC

Thanks Lenora, your suggestion sounds the most appealing actually, thanks!

I tend to notice that at the gym, when I workout, mainly on Bench and Shoulder Press, I lift as much as some guys who are bigger than me, which, although satisfying, is also annoying as outwardly I don't have a great deal to show for it! :sad:

There's no point in paying attention to what others lift they're on different routines to you, they might be lifting the same weight as you but doing twice as many reps or super setting etc just focus on what you do and always use good form

jacksonpt

I'm not an expert but it sure doesn't sound like bulking is what you want to do, not in the sense that bodybuilders do it anyway. Bulking is something usually done when a person is at a very low bodyfat to start with. It sounds like you really just need to focus on recomposition. I think you'd do well by eating at maintenance and lifting heavy 3-4 times a week and add in a little cardio on the non lifting days. That would help you to gradually build muscle, and lose a little bit of fat. Good luck.

P.S. add some more lifts for your legs like barbell squats and dead lifts. It will help you produce more of the hormones that stimulate muscle growth.

I'm curious... do these suggestions come form your own experience? Formal education on the subject? Anecdotal reading?

Barbellgirl

I'm not an expert but it sure doesn't sound like bulking is what you want to do, not in the sense that bodybuilders do it anyway. Bulking is something usually done when a person is at a very low bodyfat to start with. It sounds like you really just need to focus on recomposition. I think you'd do well by eating at maintenance and lifting heavy 3-4 times a week and add in a little cardio on the non lifting days. That would help you to gradually build muscle, and lose a little bit of fat. Good luck.

P.S. add some more lifts for your legs like barbell squats and dead lifts. It will help you produce more of the hormones that stimulate muscle growth.

No offense... But the lifting and cardio to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time is not going to work. First because eating at maintenance is not going to support muscle growth. Second, eating at maintenance is not going to support fat loss. Yes, I agree, body recomp is "possible" but painfully slow, and should only be used by someone that is right around where they want to stay.

Well this guy is only 18, he stated he doesn't want to start the whole bulking/cutting cycle, and he's been primarily working on his upper body. Adding more leg work could be what he needs, and we all know as you build more muscle you burn more calories at rest. If he just adds calories and keeps doing what he's doing his 20% bodyfat is likely to increase more than anything else. He shouldn't be in a rush anyway at his age, this should be a lifelong pursuit and lifestyle.

mrdexter1

my gym has its share of high testorone teens and they work hard pushing to individual limits but not a one is putting muscle on as they have obviously missed the point and completely neglected how important it is to eat to gain..

Age as well as your lowish bodyfat allows you a golden opportunity to get this right and having seen what a year and a half on 5000cals a day did for me bulking old style when just a bit older, - to cut is just prolonging the time it ll take to pack real muscle on and if you get your training right you ll be suprised at what you can achieve in a short period of time.

grantdumas7

I agree with Jeff that you're probably lower than 20% bf. Our appearance in the mirror can be skewed due to bloating or some water retention. Unless you do a dexa scan, which is not 100% accurate, you have now way of knowing your true bf%. If you think you need to drop some bf, then do that. Stick to either bulking or cutting for at least 8 weeks. Don't bulk for 1, 2 or even 4 weeks then decide to cut for 1,2 or 4 weeks. You will just end up spinning your wheels.

Get on a good lifting program that focuses on compound movements, i.e, presses, deadlifts, rows, dips, pullups/chins and squats. Don't make up your own routine, find a template online and stick with it. Stick with the routine for at least 6 weeks. You can change exercises, sets and reps e.g, instead of barbell bench do dumbbell bench.

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mustgetmuscles1

I agree with Jeff that you're probably lower than 20% bf. Our appearance in the mirror can be skewed due to bloating or some water retention. Unless you do a dexa scan, which is not 100% accurate, you have now way of knowing your true bf%. If you think you need to drop some bf, then do that. Stick to either bulking or cutting for at least 8 weeks. Don't bulk for 1, 2 or even 4 weeks then decide to cut for 1,2 or 4 weeks. You will just end up spinning your wheels.

Get on a good lifting program that focuses on compound movements, i.e, presses, deadlifts, rows, dips, pullups/chins and squats. Don't make up your own routine, find a template online and stick with it. Stick with the routine for at least 6 weeks. You can change exercises, sets and reps e.g, instead of barbell bench do dumbbell bench.

^Yep.

Pick a proven program and get on a bulk/cutting cycle. If I was 18 again I would take advantage of the increased ability to gain muscle. Trying a recomp might work but will take much longer. You should get much better results in the same amount of time.

TonyStark30

Keep going down, to about 145 ish, then bulk, as you're 18 you should get great results.

mrdexter1

my gym has its share of high testorone teens and they work hard pushing to individual limits but not a one is putting muscle on as they have obviously missed the point and completely neglected how important it is to eat to gain..

Age as well as your lowish bodyfat allows you a golden opportunity to get this right and having seen what a year and a half on 5000cals a day did for me bulking old style when just a bit older, - to cut is just prolonging the time it ll take to pack real muscle on and if you get your training right you ll be suprised at what you can achieve in a short period of time.

5000 calories a day? Seriously? Are you just throwing out random advice? Sure does seem like it.

Seriously... in that time i went from 11 stone to 15 stone 9 and was not fat but more suprising is my girlfriend at the time ate 3500 and was my spotter and did exactly what I did with less weight. and turned a pear shape into an hour glass. (me 13 inch to 18 inch arm her 10.5 inch to 13.5 )
I learned all I could whilst working with a group od 30 who bodybuilded and a man that went on to be the worlds strongest man !

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jollyjoe321

Some conflicting advice here, buta what it does tell me is that multiple things do work, the key thing is to eat enough and follow a proper programme. Helpful overall, thanks guys

Barbellgirl

Yes Joe, just focus on lifting heavy (add some more leg work )and eating enough to fuel your workouts. Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe is a great book and exercise program. I'll clarify why I recommended eating at maintenance, it's because most people and since you are 18, I won't expect you to be perfect, underestimate the number of calories they consume and over estimate what they burn through exercise. Having a goal of maintenance would keep your excess within reason. That was my rationale anyway. Good luck to you.

willem445

my gym has its share of high testorone teens and they work hard pushing to individual limits but not a one is putting muscle on as they have obviously missed the point and completely neglected how important it is to eat to gain..

Age as well as your lowish bodyfat allows you a golden opportunity to get this right and having seen what a year and a half on 5000cals a day did for me bulking old style when just a bit older, - to cut is just prolonging the time it ll take to pack real muscle on and if you get your training right you ll be suprised at what you can achieve in a short period of time.

5000 calories a day? Seriously? Are you just throwing out random advice? Sure does seem like it.

I eat 4000-5000 calories a day and sometimes I think that isnt even enough for me to gain weight.

You CANNOT build muscle without supplying your body with a surplus of calories and lifting weights. If you are cutting or maintaining you will not grow. As for "I dont want to be a bodybuilder" You dont get huge overnight nor do you get huge with one bulk, it takes years of bulking/cutting to get to "bodybuilder" status.

mrdexter1

my gym has its share of high testorone teens and they work hard pushing to individual limits but not a one is putting muscle on as they have obviously missed the point and completely neglected how important it is to eat to gain..

Age as well as your lowish bodyfat allows you a golden opportunity to get this right and having seen what a year and a half on 5000cals a day did for me bulking old style when just a bit older, - to cut is just prolonging the time it ll take to pack real muscle on and if you get your training right you ll be suprised at what you can achieve in a short period of time.

5000 calories a day? Seriously? Are you just throwing out random advice? Sure does seem like it.

I eat 4000-5000 calories a day and sometimes I think that isnt even enough for me to gain weight.

You CANNOT build muscle without supplying your body with a surplus of calories and lifting weights. If you are cutting or maintaining you will not grow. As for "I dont want to be a bodybuilder" You dont get huge overnight nor do you get huge with one bulk, it takes years of bulking/cutting to get to "bodybuilder" status.

what he says......

And just for the record strangers pigeon holed me a bodybuilder at 5ft 8 and 15 stone 9 and no doubt i carried fat but it went on all over despite muscles clearly seen and i never had a belly. problem we all had back in the 80 s was cutting as people are more knowledgeable now and retain more muscle ...

At 18 and his bodyfat he should sort a good routine and eat to repair, strengthen and grow muscle and if his weight gain faulters just as weight loss faulters on the way down - push through it and change stuff to see what kickstarts it. He s prolonging his goal if he eats at maintenance or cuts at his stage

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neandermagnon

I started bulking when I got to the point that I didn't like the changes I was seeing in my body with further fat loss, this was around 22% body fat according to accumeasure (I use several methods, some measure a bit higher some a bit lower than this)

I'm focused on strength and don't care so much about aesthetics, I'd rather have a 300lb+ deadlift than 6 pack abs. So I'm doing cutting between bulking phases to make sure I don't get too much fat around my waist (where my body tends to want to store it) but my focus is on health, gaining strength and increasing and maintaining a high lean body mass.

mikemc620

my gym has its share of high testorone teens and they work hard pushing to individual limits but not a one is putting muscle on as they have obviously missed the point and completely neglected how important it is to eat to gain..

Age as well as your lowish bodyfat allows you a golden opportunity to get this right and having seen what a year and a half on 5000cals a day did for me bulking old style when just a bit older, - to cut is just prolonging the time it ll take to pack real muscle on and if you get your training right you ll be suprised at what you can achieve in a short period of time.

5000 calories a day? Seriously? Are you just throwing out random advice? Sure does seem like it.

I eat 4000-5000 calories a day and sometimes I think that isnt even enough for me to gain weight.

You CANNOT build muscle without supplying your body with a surplus of calories and lifting weights. If you are cutting or maintaining you will not grow. As for "I dont want to be a bodybuilder" You dont get huge overnight nor do you get huge with one bulk, it takes years of bulking/cutting to get to "bodybuilder" status.

Are you seriously trying to explain to me that you need a surplus to gain?? That's not my issue here. My issue is OP just arbitrarily being told "eat 5000" calories" How do you even know how many calories he needs? You know what would happen if I just decided to eat 5000 calories a day? I would put on way more fat than I want.

He never actually told OP to eat 5000 calories a day. He just said that is what he did and that it worked for him. If you want to construe that to mean go eat 5000 calories a day then thats on you.

LolBroScience

my gym has its share of high testorone teens and they work hard pushing to individual limits but not a one is putting muscle on as they have obviously missed the point and completely neglected how important it is to eat to gain..

Age as well as your lowish bodyfat allows you a golden opportunity to get this right and having seen what a year and a half on 5000cals a day did for me bulking old style when just a bit older, - to cut is just prolonging the time it ll take to pack real muscle on and if you get your training right you ll be suprised at what you can achieve in a short period of time.

5000 calories a day? Seriously? Are you just throwing out random advice? Sure does seem like it.

I eat 4000-5000 calories a day and sometimes I think that isnt even enough for me to gain weight.

You CANNOT build muscle without supplying your body with a surplus of calories and lifting weights. If you are cutting or maintaining you will not grow. As for "I dont want to be a bodybuilder" You dont get huge overnight nor do you get huge with one bulk, it takes years of bulking/cutting to get to "bodybuilder" status.

Are you seriously trying to explain to me that you need a surplus to gain?? That's not my issue here. My issue is OP just arbitrarily being told "eat 5000" calories" How do you even know how many calories he needs? You know what would happen if I just decided to eat 5000 calories a day? I would put on way more fat than I want.

He never actually told OP to eat 5000 calories a day. He just said that is what he did and that it worked for him. If you want to construe that to mean go eat 5000 calories a day then thats on you.

True, but advising someone to bulk when they are at 20% bodyfat is a different story. 20% is not low bodyfat, and he would see better gains coming in a a lower bodyfat and transitioning into a lean bulk phase, as opposed to bulking at 20% and adding more fat to his frame. Is it really a good idea to bulk up and then end with 25+% bodyfat only to end up having to cut for a year and lose some of those gains?

mrdexter1

The op says he can see his abbs so not sure where you got 20% bodyfat from ?????

Barbellgirl

The op says he can see his abbs so not sure where you got 20% bodyfat from ?????

The OP said he can start seeing the outline of his abs after dieting since Dec. 2012. He is also the one that estimated his bf at 20% based on male bodyfat pictures.