kettlebell questions...

hookilau

We do the major compound lifts (3x5) 3 x weekly and want to add KB on our off days for active recovery.

Any suggestions for a 'formula' to guesstimate what a starting weight might be? We both have varying levels of ability but are experienced with lifting.

I've been studying youtube videos so I'm pretty confident that we'll know what to watch for as far as form. In the process of looking for KB classes locally, all I could find was expensive programs to certify as a trainer :ohwell: Soooo, for now at least, it's youtube for videos/workouts.

Any suggestions for actual workouts would be great too....there are soooo many on youtube and they all seem comparable to my untrained eye.

ETA: also, is using KB for our off days the best use of this type of weight training or can they be artfully interjected with the usual compound lifts? Not sure how much sense that makes....I'm not the one who develops our programs, DH is, but I happen to be the one who has to interject new ideas and methods etc.

JenMc14

If you're doing compound lifts 3 times a week, then adding in kettle bells on rest days, when will your muscles recover? You should give muscles at least 24 hours in between training sessions. If you want to use kettle bells, I'd work them into your lifting days. To me, personally, active rest is more along the lines of low impact cardio, long walks, Pilates or yoga, than doing more lifts.

hookilau

I totally want to do this KB thing. Just found Steve Cotter on YouTube and I'm convinced I need to do these :laugh:

Thanks for the input, it never occurred to me to do them on gym days :laugh: My head is swimming with the idea of swinging these around :blushing:

I bought a set of Idzo kb 10, 15, 20 and 25#'s really cheap on Amazon figuring I'd use them for high reps (cause they're really light) and when I get to the higher weights, transition to using my gym's set. The heavier ones were too expensive and too much a commitment for us just now.

Thanks for your input. :drinker:

jimmmer

I use them in my warm-up before lifting so that I grease the groove of the fundamental movements everyday, whatever I'm going to be doing in the actual "main" part of the workout. You can do Swings to grease the hinge, Clean and Press for the press, Goblets for squats, and batwings for pull. Totally stole this from Dan John.

Alternatively, you can do high rep snatches, heavy swings/hill sprint intervals or 2-1-3 double kb complexes as finishers on your lifting days.

You can also do other work like K-S turkish get-ups and windmills on your non-lifting days to get something different done. You can do lighter interval type conditioning workouts to get some met-con in.

Possibilities are endless. Unless you're strict pressing your RM on your non-lifting days, you're not going to significantly affect your recovery (unless other factors like sleep or nutrition are a problem) so I would ignore this advice.

jimmmer

Also be wary of going too light with the bell for swings. Beginners who start with too light a bell end up using their arms to swing the kettlebell rather than their hips. It's something you can't "cheat" with a heavier bell and you'll learn to drive the bell to the top position by hinging instead.

grho

livefitrevolution.com has some good workouts and how to videos...I don't really like the diet portion of their program, but the kettlebell videos I thought were good. And they are free.

hookilau

I use them in my warm-up before lifting so that I grease the groove of the fundamental movements everyday, whatever I'm going to be doing in the actual "main" part of the workout. You can do Swings to grease the hinge, Clean and Press for the press, Goblets for squats, and batwings for pull. Totally stole this from Dan John.

Alternatively, you can do high rep snatches, heavy swings/hill sprint intervals or 2-1-3 double kb complexes as finishers on your lifting days.

You can also do other work like K-S turkish get-ups and windmills on your non-lifting days to get something different done. You can do lighter interval type conditioning workouts to get some met-con in.

Possibilities are endless. Unless you're strict pressing your RM on your non-lifting days, you're not going to significantly affect your recovery (unless other factors like sleep or nutrition are a problem) so I would ignore this advice.

This was exactly the info I was looking for....:drinker:

I. can't. wait. I know what you mean about too light of a weight. I swung a 25# kb pretty easily and was able to manage the momentum well too. DH, significantly more muscular than I, kept using his legs to lift the kb & then his arms to swing no matter how I tried to describe what *should* be happening. I guess it was just too light for him...gym tomorrow...we'll definitely see how heavy we need to go for him to get the momentum happening.

What you're saying is, as long as I'm not planning on swinging the equivalent of my current working set on off days, I should be good.

What do you think of Cotter?

Huffdogg

I like using them for conditioning work at the end of my lifting days. Today was Squats, and I finished off with reverse hypers supersetted with a dozen 28kg swings. At the end of a good lower body workout, you can really feel the effects of the hip thrust in the swing. Ditto snatches on back day, any sort of kb press or TGU's on Bench/press day.

jimmmer

What you're saying is, as long as I'm not planning on swinging the equivalent of my current working set on off days, I should be good.

What do you think of Cotter?

If all you're planning on doing is swings, and you don't go mad/have heavy deads the next day, you should be fine. I'm of the opinion you can swing a bell everyday.

I find Cotter to be personable and his "Encyclopedia of Kettlebell Lifting" dvd is just about the most comprehensive demo of lift variations I have seen. I'm not sure there's anything out there that takes things to the nth degree like this set does. There's a whole lot of history there between Pavel (formerly RKC, now of SFG) and his once protege Cotter (now head of the IKFF). Cotter is more focused on the sport aspects of kettlebell. He has also tried to slay his metaphorical father as all sons must do, I suppose. Have a gander at:

http://personal-trainerbrighton.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/steve-cotter-interview.html

to see what I mean. I don't have a horse in this race, personally. Just a heads up because there may still be corners of the Interwebz where this one is still rumbling on!

Anyway, that aside, you'll find gold information-wise from Pavel, Dan John, Cotter, Maxwell and others. They all have their particular takes on form, cueing (and programming).

If you're after any athletic carry-over from kettlebells and lifting in general, I'd recommend reading anything (and everything) by Dan John. If you're looking for the mobility/rehab/prehab aspects of kettlebells, look to Dr Mark Cheng, Gray Cook, Brett Jones. Maxwell has stuff for crazy metabolic conditioning (he's in his 60's now and still looks better than most 30-somethings). Cotter is acknowledged to be an excellent teacher and people always rave about his workshops and how a few pointers and something came right into focus after years of not getting it (even after attending other people's workshops). Pavel, of course, is the Granddaddy of them all (kettlebell wise) and responsible for their popularisation in the West (notice I didn't say introduction!).

jimmmer

I. can't. wait. I know what you mean about too light of a weight. I swung a 25# kb pretty easily and was able to manage the momentum well too. DH, significantly more muscular than I, kept using his legs to lift the kb & then his arms to swing no matter how I tried to describe what *should* be happening. I guess it was just too light for him...gym tomorrow...we'll definitely see how heavy we need to go for him to get the momentum happening.

Two things: First, make sure DH does not tri-fold (i.e big bend at the knees and hips) when he swings. He wants to bi-fold with minimal knee bend so all the work is being done by the hip hinge. Really squeeze the glutes to drive the bell up. Second thing, engage the lats at the top of the swing so that the top position is kinda like a standing plank to halt the momentum of the bell and then drive it back down between the legs so that the forearms touch the inner thighs. Crude advice, quickly-typed, but helps you visualise a few points where people often go wrong/get sloppy.

hookilau

Now. that's what I'm talking about. :laugh:

Now that you mention it, yes, Jason certainly had the 'tri-fold thing' happening. I'm going to take some video today so we can make sure form is correct & all is as it should be. We plan on practicing a 2 handed swing today to make sure we get the fundamentals down. Not crude at all, it made sense to both of us & the description is easily visualized.

Great info & tips! There are so many people with youtube videos and such, it looks like I barely scratched the surface with Cotter. I bought his Complete Guide book from Amazon for my tablet and you're [b[exactly[/b] right. The one word I would use to describe it is encyclopedic! Not much of a talker in this book mostly illustrations. Which is great as I scanned it quickly & the simplicity of these exercises make them appear deceptively easy.

I'm off to knee deep into google research about the above named experts, thanks again, I feel like I've got an insider's view already :laugh:

hookilau

There's a whole lot of history there between Pavel (formerly RKC, now of SFG) and his once protege Cotter (now head of the IKFF). Cotter is more focused on the sport aspects of kettlebell. He has also tried to slay his metaphorical father as all sons must do, I suppose. Have a gander at:

just read the interview...woah...lot's of subtext there. I did recognize yoga's influence on him, Jason (my husband) has kinda big arms like his but the range of motion Cotter enjoys makes Jason cringe, lol. I found the video with the indian clubs & thought we might both benefit from this as well.

Jason has difficulty getting his arms to his ears without a serious bend in the elbows, Cotter with the clubs gets such a straight line, it almost looks unnatural :laugh: Still, his mobility is definitely enviable!

Our goals are a bit unclear at the moment, I don't see any downsides to adding KB and I'm even more stoked to begin. We're both older, in our mid 40's so we want to be bionic, lol...no, not really, just would rather age gracefully & a bit of hypertrophy would be niiice too :blushing:

I'm a dog handler & even though I don't match braun with braun, the confidence to be able to keep my feet carries through & makes me very effective at what I do. As a small woman (5' and 135#'s) on my way to getting smaller (gw 110-115#) this will continue to be important for me. :drinker: