Food Calorie Surplus to Gain Muscle Mass…Really?

japar

I keep reading that in order to gain muscle mass, one needs to have a caloric surplus that includes appropriate quantities of protein (and of course muscle mass building exercises). My question focuses on the food piece of this equation – I want to know if body fat calories count toward the surplus.

My hypothesis: Given appropriate exercise and protein levels, a person can build muscle mass while eating at a calorie deficit that will result in loss of body fat (and perhaps even weight loss). My contention is that the body fat contributes to the body’s calorie needs as well as food, and until there is insufficient body fat a person should expect to be able to gain muscle mass AND lose body fat and even body weight simultaneously. What think ye?

I am looking forward to the debate as to why this may not be true and learning a few things along the way...

kirkor

If someone is overweight, eating at a caloric deficit, and lifting weights, then yes it's possible. The body's fat stores will be burned for energy, and the protein/carbs being eaten will be used to build muscle tissue.
The fat already "on board" doesn't convert to muscle.

jacksonpt

My hypothesis: Given appropriate exercise and protein levels, a person can build muscle mass while eating at a calorie deficit that will result in loss of body fat (and perhaps even weight loss). My contention is that the body fat contributes to the body’s calorie needs as well as food, and until there is insufficient body fat a person should expect to be able to gain muscle mass AND lose body fat and even body weight simultaneously. What think ye?

People will tell you, based on personal experience, that it does happen (assuming the calorie deficit isn't too large). People will also tell you that it's not possible... that without a surplus of building materials (calories), new muscle ain't gonna happen.

I don't think it's an either/or issue... I think that with a calorie surplus, muscle gains will be easier and faster (though "faster" is a bit of a misnomer... it's never fast, it just won't be AS slow). I also think that the amount of body fat a person is carrying is a factor.

.

Holly_Roman_Empire

I keep reading that in order to gain muscle mass, one needs to have a caloric surplus that includes appropriate quantities of protein (and of course muscle mass building exercises). My question focuses on the food piece of this equation – I want to know if body fat calories count toward the surplus.

My hypothesis: Given appropriate exercise and protein levels, a person can build muscle mass while eating at a calorie deficit that will result in loss of body fat (and perhaps even weight loss). My contention is that the body fat contributes to the body’s calorie needs as well as food, and until there is insufficient body fat a person should expect to be able to gain muscle mass AND lose body fat and even body weight simultaneously. What think ye?

I am looking forward to the debate as to why this may not be true and learning a few things along the way...

It happens all the time on "The Biggest Loser". I think the difference is that those people are overweight/obese. A thin person with virtually no muscle mass will probably have to eat a calorie surplus.

jonnythan

I keep reading that in order to gain muscle mass, one needs to have a caloric surplus that includes appropriate quantities of protein (and of course muscle mass building exercises). My question focuses on the food piece of this equation – I want to know if body fat calories count toward the surplus.

My hypothesis: Given appropriate exercise and protein levels, a person can build muscle mass while eating at a calorie deficit that will result in loss of body fat (and perhaps even weight loss). My contention is that the body fat contributes to the body’s calorie needs as well as food, and until there is insufficient body fat a person should expect to be able to gain muscle mass AND lose body fat and even body weight simultaneously. What think ye?

I am looking forward to the debate as to why this may not be true and learning a few things along the way...

Contradicted by available evidence and known physiology. The body doesn't break down extra fat so that it has more available calories to build muscle. If the body is breaking down its own tissue to generate enough energy to stay alive, then it isn't going to be trying to build mass. That's just how it goes.

Holly_Roman_Empire

I keep reading that in order to gain muscle mass, one needs to have a caloric surplus that includes appropriate quantities of protein (and of course muscle mass building exercises). My question focuses on the food piece of this equation – I want to know if body fat calories count toward the surplus.

My hypothesis: Given appropriate exercise and protein levels, a person can build muscle mass while eating at a calorie deficit that will result in loss of body fat (and perhaps even weight loss). My contention is that the body fat contributes to the body’s calorie needs as well as food, and until there is insufficient body fat a person should expect to be able to gain muscle mass AND lose body fat and even body weight simultaneously. What think ye?

I am looking forward to the debate as to why this may not be true and learning a few things along the way...

Contradicted by available evidence and known physiology. The body doesn't break down extra fat so that it has more available calories to build muscle. If the body is breaking down its own tissue to generate enough energy to stay alive, then it isn't going to be trying to build mass. That's just how it goes.

Would you say that an overweight person could build muscle while on a deficit, though?

jonnythan

I keep reading that in order to gain muscle mass, one needs to have a caloric surplus that includes appropriate quantities of protein (and of course muscle mass building exercises). My question focuses on the food piece of this equation – I want to know if body fat calories count toward the surplus.

My hypothesis: Given appropriate exercise and protein levels, a person can build muscle mass while eating at a calorie deficit that will result in loss of body fat (and perhaps even weight loss). My contention is that the body fat contributes to the body’s calorie needs as well as food, and until there is insufficient body fat a person should expect to be able to gain muscle mass AND lose body fat and even body weight simultaneously. What think ye?

I am looking forward to the debate as to why this may not be true and learning a few things along the way...

Contradicted by available evidence and known physiology. The body doesn't break down extra fat so that it has more available calories to build muscle. If the body is breaking down its own tissue to generate enough energy to stay alive, then it isn't going to be trying to build mass. That's just how it goes.

Would you say that an overweight person could build muscle while on a deficit, though?

I think it depends significantly on what you mean by "build muscle." I know there are all these stories of fat people "building muscle" while losing, but I think there's something physiologically different going on there than when you build muscle on a calorie surplus. I don't think that new tissue is getting created. I have no evidence for that claim, but it doesn't make sense to me. I think that a change in how/where glycogen and water and other things are getting stored, and a change in the chemistry of the adipose tissue, are probably what generate those measured differences.

Either way, even in the most extreme verified cases, there isn't that much muscle mass created. Someone who is merely overweight and not very obese is probably not going to build any significant amount of mass - and even if they did, it wouldn't be any sort of long-term growth.

japar

So far so good...appreciate the input...please keep it coming.

Holly_Roman_Empire

I do agree with what Jonnythan says about long term growth. I don't think anyone on a calorie deficit regardless of starting weight/mass is going to end up looking like The Rock or Arnold Schwarzenegger.

contingencyplan

Yes it can happen but only in the case of people who are very overweight with a very high amount of body fat.

mustgetmuscles1

I had the same question when I first started.

To build new muscle mass the body needs at least two things, energy AND the building materials. You can not build something from nothing, right?

You provide your body with plenty of building material (protein) but not enough energy? It prioritizes the need for energy before the need to build new mass. This is to keep us alive. Repairing tissue, breathing, hormone function, immune system and so on. Since protein can be used as energy your body will use it until it meets it energy needs. If you are in a deficit this leaves no building materials. The body will then go to fat stores for any additional calorie needs but the extra energy and building material never occurs at the same time in a deficit. When you have eaten food the body produces hormones that prioritize using the ingested food for energy. It will not go to fat stores while this is in progress and then only when we are in a deficit.

There are instances where there seems to be exceptions to this but they are pretty short term and only small increases. Very overweight, new lifters, and people returning to training who regain lost muscle.

We see studies and observations where lean body mass is increased while the subject lost weight. This is often used as evidence that muscle CAN be built but lean body mass does not always equal muscle. Water is a significant contributor to LBM and can vary widely day to day. There is also some degree of inaccuracy to the testing methods. Even in a daily calorie deficit there are times during that day that you are not in a deficit for immediate caloric needs. Small amounts of new mass could be created during that time also. Over the long term this could allow for some body recomposition.

alphal0b0

bump for later read.

japar

Well put mustgetmuscle.

jacksonpt

I keep reading that in order to gain muscle mass, one needs to have a caloric surplus that includes appropriate quantities of protein (and of course muscle mass building exercises). My question focuses on the food piece of this equation – I want to know if body fat calories count toward the surplus.

My hypothesis: Given appropriate exercise and protein levels, a person can build muscle mass while eating at a calorie deficit that will result in loss of body fat (and perhaps even weight loss). My contention is that the body fat contributes to the body’s calorie needs as well as food, and until there is insufficient body fat a person should expect to be able to gain muscle mass AND lose body fat and even body weight simultaneously. What think ye?

I am looking forward to the debate as to why this may not be true and learning a few things along the way...

Contradicted by available evidence and known physiology. The body doesn't break down extra fat so that it has more available calories to build muscle. If the body is breaking down its own tissue to generate enough energy to stay alive, then it isn't going to be trying to build mass. That's just how it goes.

Would you say that an overweight person could build muscle while on a deficit, though?

I think it depends significantly on what you mean by "build muscle." I know there are all these stories of fat people "building muscle" while losing, but I think there's something physiologically different going on there than when you build muscle on a calorie surplus. I don't think that new tissue is getting created. I have no evidence for that claim, but it doesn't make sense to me. I think that a change in how/where glycogen and water and other things are getting stored, and a change in the chemistry of the adipose tissue, are probably what generate those measured differences.

Either way, even in the most extreme verified cases, there isn't that much muscle mass created. Someone who is merely overweight and not very obese is probably not going to build any significant amount of mass - and even if they did, it wouldn't be any sort of long-term growth.

I think this is an important distinction.


If you're looking to build significant mass (i.e. "bulk"), then you probably shouldn't rely on body fat stores. Lesser goals are probably realistic, especially if you are willing to wait for them.

sluggz

Just my 2 cents... The body can't convert it's own fat to muscle, if that's your question. That being said, if you were to get seriously strict about nutrient timing, specifically peri-workout, it is possible to have an overall (think weekly or monthly) caloric deficit and still gain muscle.
That being said, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a bodybuilder or powerlifter who got big without eating at a surplus.

LolBroScience

I had the same question when I first started.

To build new muscle mass the body needs at least two things, energy AND the building materials. You can not build something from nothing, right?

You provide your body with plenty of building material (protein) but not enough energy? It prioritizes the need for energy before the need to build new mass. This is to keep us alive. Repairing tissue, breathing, hormone function, immune system and so on. Since protein can be used as energy your body will use it until it meets it energy needs. If you are in a deficit this leaves no building materials. The body will then go to fat stores for any additional calorie needs but the extra energy and building material never occurs at the same time in a deficit. When you have eaten food the body produces hormones that prioritize using the ingested food for energy. It will not go to fat stores while this is in progress and then only when we are in a deficit.

There are instances where there seems to be exceptions to this but they are pretty short term and only small increases. Very overweight, new lifters, and people returning to training who regain lost muscle

We see studies and observations where lean body mass is increased while the subject lost weight. This is often used as evidence that muscle CAN be built but lean body mass does not always equal muscle. Water is a significant contributor to LBM and can vary widely day to day. There is also some degree of inaccuracy to the testing methods. Even in a daily calorie deficit there are times during that day that you are not in a deficit for immediate caloric needs. Small amounts of new mass could be created during that time also. Over the long term this could allow for some body recomposition.

There are instances where there seems to be exceptions to this but they are pretty short term and only small increases. Very overweight, new lifters, and people returning to training who regain lost muscle - This

mmapags

Lyle McDonald's thoughts on the matter.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

Mr_Knight

My hypothesis: Given appropriate exercise and protein levels, a person can build muscle mass while eating at a calorie deficit that will result in loss of body fat (and perhaps even weight loss). My contention is that the body fat contributes to the body’s calorie needs as well as food, and until there is insufficient body fat a person should expect to be able to gain muscle mass AND lose body fat and even body weight simultaneously. What think ye?

It's not enough to say all the pieces are available, the appropriate metabolic pathways need to be there, and the pathways need to be wide enough to support the load.

For example, an issue with fat stores is they release energy much more slowly than the body burns them during exercise. A 50 pound fat reserve will yield somewhere around 1200 calories a day of potential energy, but this energy is only accessible at a rate of around 50 calories per hour. This means the internal "batteries" (ie glycogen stores etc) are going to get hit during exercise. This in turn means a portion, possibly a significant portion, of caloric intake is going to restoration of glycogen etc. If you're in a high-protein, low-carb kind of regimen, this means burning ingested protein for fuel, instead of using it for muscle growth.

So to make your argument, you'll need to lay out the principle metabolic pathways, caloric intakes, etc, and demonstrate that Point A is actually connected to Point C, so to speak. Personally, I'd love to see someone lay out an energy balance map showing all this.

Mr_Knight

Now, if you look out across different time frames, it becomes clear that yes, you CAN add muscle while eating at a deficit. Spend 8 weeks on a bulking cycle, and then 8 weeks on a cutting cycle, and you will have eaten at a net deficit over the 16 weeks, while (in effect) turning fat into muscle.

The question then is....how tight can you get those timeframes? Can you do this on a week to week basis? At what point are you cycling so fast between bulking and cutting that the benefits of either/both are lost?

I don't have the answer to that. But I suspect it strongly relates to the exercise volume and type.

ndj1979

I keep reading that in order to gain muscle mass, one needs to have a caloric surplus that includes appropriate quantities of protein (and of course muscle mass building exercises). My question focuses on the food piece of this equation – I want to know if body fat calories count toward the surplus.

My hypothesis: Given appropriate exercise and protein levels, a person can build muscle mass while eating at a calorie deficit that will result in loss of body fat (and perhaps even weight loss). My contention is that the body fat contributes to the body’s calorie needs as well as food, and until there is insufficient body fat a person should expect to be able to gain muscle mass AND lose body fat and even body weight simultaneously. What think ye?

I am looking forward to the debate as to why this may not be true and learning a few things along the way...

hypothesis = fail ..

you need energy to build muscle....so how can one consume less energy (calories) and build muscle? That is like saying you can run your car on an empty tank of gas...

The people on "biggest loser" look like they gained muscle, and the obese beginner may have slight gains, but more than anything they have lost body fat which is showing the muscle that they already had ....

DopeItUp

I keep reading that in order to gain muscle mass, one needs to have a caloric surplus that includes appropriate quantities of protein (and of course muscle mass building exercises). My question focuses on the food piece of this equation – I want to know if body fat calories count toward the surplus.

My hypothesis: Given appropriate exercise and protein levels, a person can build muscle mass while eating at a calorie deficit that will result in loss of body fat (and perhaps even weight loss). My contention is that the body fat contributes to the body’s calorie needs as well as food, and until there is insufficient body fat a person should expect to be able to gain muscle mass AND lose body fat and even body weight simultaneously. What think ye?

I am looking forward to the debate as to why this may not be true and learning a few things along the way...

It happens all the time on "The Biggest Loser". I think the difference is that those people are overweight/obese. A thin person with virtually no muscle mass will probably have to eat a calorie surplus.

Did you just use a reality TV show as evidence for...anything?