muscle loss and calorie deficits
jacksonpt
Posts: 10,413 Member
I'm hoping for an MFP first here - to talk about a topic WITH context, and with some perspective on the bigger picture.
We've all seen threads about how big calorie deficits leading to muscle loss (or more accurately losses in LBM). We've also read posts about how lifting heavy helps retain muscle. We've also seen posts about protein minimums, macros, etc.
So let's talk about how all those things come together.
It seems that the generally accepted starting point for minimum protein (at least among people with goals tied to body composition) is 1g of protein per pound of lean body mass. The default minimum for fat seems to be .35g per pound of total body weight. So lets assume I'm getting both those as a minimums.
It also seems generally accepted that heavy lifting will reduce/minimize/all but eliminate muscle loss. I know I've read that here from some highly successful people (not saying successful people automatically know what they're talking about, but...). I believe I've also read that in my perusings of Lyle McDonal's articles and books. Let's assume that I'm consistent with a reasonable, heavy lifting routine.
So... I'm getting enough protein, I'm getting enough fat, and I'm lifting heavy (both regularly and hitting all major muscle groups). Why then does it matter how big my calorie deficit is? Yes, adherence comes into the conversation at some point, but since it's different for everyone, let's take that out of the picture for now.
We've all seen threads about how big calorie deficits leading to muscle loss (or more accurately losses in LBM). We've also read posts about how lifting heavy helps retain muscle. We've also seen posts about protein minimums, macros, etc.
So let's talk about how all those things come together.
It seems that the generally accepted starting point for minimum protein (at least among people with goals tied to body composition) is 1g of protein per pound of lean body mass. The default minimum for fat seems to be .35g per pound of total body weight. So lets assume I'm getting both those as a minimums.
It also seems generally accepted that heavy lifting will reduce/minimize/all but eliminate muscle loss. I know I've read that here from some highly successful people (not saying successful people automatically know what they're talking about, but...). I believe I've also read that in my perusings of Lyle McDonal's articles and books. Let's assume that I'm consistent with a reasonable, heavy lifting routine.
So... I'm getting enough protein, I'm getting enough fat, and I'm lifting heavy (both regularly and hitting all major muscle groups). Why then does it matter how big my calorie deficit is? Yes, adherence comes into the conversation at some point, but since it's different for everyone, let's take that out of the picture for now.
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It matters because fat can only be "burned" (converted and used) at a rate of roughly 31.4 calories per pound per day, so even if you are doing other things right if the deficit can't be serviced fast enough using fat then the body has to use other things.0
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It matters because fat can only be "burned" (converted and used) at a rate of roughly 31.4 calories per pound per day, so even if you are doing other things right if the deficit can't be serviced fast enough using fat then the body has to use other things.
I'm oversimplifying here, I know... but I need something more tangible to help me understand...
Say I have 30lbs of fat. 30lbs * 31.4 calories per day = 942 calories. That means that my fat mass can account (make up for?) a maximum deficit of 942 calories.
Again, oversimplified I'm sure, but for the sake of conversation/understanding...0 -
As I understand it, there is also a genetic component to calorie partitioning or where the energy deficit comes from (or alternatively where the surplus goes when in a surplus situation). I was just reading on Body Recomposition (is that Lyle Macdonald?) about this. He calls it P-ratio. Some people are genetically predisposed to crappy partitioning where they put on, say 50%fat and 50%muscle in a surplus and then lose 1/3 muscle and 2/3 fat in a deficit. Any deficit.0
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Yeah, I'm sure genetics are part of the conversation, especially as the deficit gets bigger.0
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interesting question also would like to hear others thoughts on this
I have absolutely no idea but you would think you would maintain mostly LBM0 -
As I understand it, there is also a genetic component to calorie partitioning or where the energy deficit comes from (or alternatively where the surplus goes when in a surplus situation). I was just reading on Body Recomposition (is that Lyle Macdonald?) about this. He calls it P-ratio. Some people are genetically predisposed to crappy partitioning where they put on, say 50%fat and 50%muscle in a surplus and then lose 1/3 muscle and 2/3 fat in a deficit. Any deficit.
^The primary predictor of P ratio is starting bf% (Lyle McDonald, Initial Body Fat and Body Composition Changes). From my understanding, a leaner individual will lose more LBM during a deficit, and gain more LBM on a bulk. Subsequently, the fatter you are, the more fat you will lose in a cut, and the more fat you will gain in a bulk. However, there is also a monkey-wrench - dieted down lean vs naturally lean. Hormonal and metabolic adaptations will also play a role in LBM lost or gained in naturally lean vs dieted down individuals.
Basically, the human body is much smarter than we are. Unfortunately, we can't "manually" partition our calories and decide where we experience weight gain or loss.0 -
There's only so much lifting heavy with a surplus of protein can accomplish in sparing lean mass under a semi-starvation diet. In its simplicity, ones starting body fat percentage and magnitude of deficit are two key variables. As mrsbigmack mentioned, Lyle speaks about how initial body fat percentage as a primary determinant in P-ratio in regards to surpluses and deficits. When I did a self-imposed semi-starvation diet years ago, I estimated a loss of 12 lbs fat mass vs 8 lbs lean mass when assuming a 10-week, 1800 net calorie deficit from 3000 maintenance needs.0
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Not over simplified; correct AFAIK. I have seen an article that number comes from. Someone linked to it in another post and I think it was on NIH. As hotly as some things get debated, that one seems pretty widely accepted. That does not mean that the body will provide the 942 calories though. It just means it can and based on other studies and experience my opinion is that if you were to have a 942 calories deficit, it would more likely get less than 800 of that from fat. I am not sure why, but there almost always seems to be LBM loss even when people are doing what seems like the right things. Based on BF% before and after my loss of 55 pounds, I think I lost over 75% fat. I am good with that. I would rather be where I am now.It matters because fat can only be "burned" (converted and used) at a rate of roughly 31.4 calories per pound per day, so even if you are doing other things right if the deficit can't be serviced fast enough using fat then the body has to use other things.
I'm oversimplifying here, I know... but I need something more tangible to help me understand...
Say I have 30lbs of fat. 30lbs * 31.4 calories per day = 942 calories. That means that my fat mass can account (make up for?) a maximum deficit of 942 calories.
Again, oversimplified I'm sure, but for the sake of conversation/understanding...0 -
As I understand it, there is also a genetic component to calorie partitioning or where the energy deficit comes from (or alternatively where the surplus goes when in a surplus situation). I was just reading on Body Recomposition (is that Lyle Macdonald?) about this. He calls it P-ratio. Some people are genetically predisposed to crappy partitioning where they put on, say 50%fat and 50%muscle in a surplus and then lose 1/3 muscle and 2/3 fat in a deficit. Any deficit.
^The primary predictor of P ratio is starting bf% (Lyle McDonald, Initial Body Fat and Body Composition Changes). From my understanding, a leaner individual will lose more LBM during a deficit, and gain more LBM on a bulk. Subsequently, the fatter you are, the more fat you will lose in a cut, and the more fat you will gain in a bulk. However, there is also a monkey-wrench - dieted down lean vs naturally lean. Hormonal and metabolic adaptations will also play a role in LBM lost or gained in naturally lean vs dieted down individuals.
Basically, the human body is much smarter than we are. Unfortunately, we can't "manually" partition our calories and decide where we experience weight gain or loss.
agreed (and well written).
I don't believe the 31cals/lb of FM was ever proven to be 100% accurate. If someone has a link to the study on that, that would be great but from memory it wasn't conclusive.0 -
Nice timing on the thread. I've been thinking over the past few days about how to determine absolute rock-bottom safe limit on calorie intake.
To scope this down I'm going to assume my standard dieter, a 250 pound male with 35% body fat.
Protein -> 1g/LBM pound -> 160g/day -> 640 calories/day
Fat -> 0.35 g/LBM pound -> 56g/day -> 511 calories/day
Carbs -> 0.75 * Protein -> 120g/day -> 480 calories/day
Totals to 1631 calories. A person of this size with a decent activity level should be burning at least 3200 calories/day. So a daily deficit of 1600 calories, which is certainly within the limits of what the fat stores can provide (2000 calorie/day, conservatively).
The implications of this, if close to correct, are interesting. Namely, even someone carrying an extra 50 pounds of fat is going to have issues retaining lean body mass if they want to lose at a rate of 2 pounds/week. Really, the only way to get there would be to jack up the carb intake so you can jack up the cardio so you can create a same-percentage deficit off of a bigger TDEE. But then we're no longer talking about "rock bottom calorie intake".0 -
Good info here....tagging to follow!0
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Dug up an article that refers to the source for the 31.4 calculation and has some other interesting details:
http://baye.com/calculating-the-daily-calorie-deficit-for-maximum-fat-loss/
One thing it has is an example very similar to what was mentioned earlier, though the author rounds to 30 cals:
Someone else said they thought 2000 a day from fat was conservative. For an obese person, it may be. It is odd that the author used 15% BF as an example.For example, a 200 pound man at 15% body fat would have 30 pounds of fat, enough to provide about 940 calories of energy over the course of a day. Assuming he reduced his calories intake to 940 below maintenance for a day, by the end of the day he would have lost about a quarter pound of fat, which would require the deficit to be reduced by about eight calories the next day.
The actual study is:
Alpert SS. A limit on the energy transfer rate from the human fat store in hypophagia. J Theor Biol. 2005 Mar 7;233(1):1-13.0 -
Where it gets tricky is cal/carb cycling. Having some days of the week at maintenance or surplus and then some larger deficit days has proven anecdotally to work quite well (especially with leaner individuals). If the 31kcal/lb of FM was true then I would think that having a straight deficit each day would be more beneficial.0
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Dug up an article that refers to the source for the 31.4 calculation and has some other interesting details:
http://baye.com/calculating-the-daily-calorie-deficit-for-maximum-fat-loss/
The actual study is:
Alpert SS. A limit on the energy transfer rate from the human fat store in hypophagia. J Theor Biol. 2005 Mar 7;233(1):1-13.
Thanks mate
I think this is a key point.Keep in mind the specific foods and macronutrient ratios consumed by the subjects were far from optimal for fat loss, and that “moderate activity levels” is not the same as regular, high intensity strength training. The maximum rate is most likely higher for someone eating adequate protein and not overdoing carbohydrate intake and strength training would also contributes to maintenance of lean body mass when calorie intake is below maintenance level.
For optimal LBM retention, increased protein intake and resistance training would be done unlike in the Minnesota starvation experiment. How much difference that makes???0 -
One thing I have never seen anything definitive on is what the time window for the math is. It seems to be fine to average across a couple of days at least.Where it gets tricky is cal/carb cycling. Having some days of the week at maintenance or surplus and then some larger deficit days has proven anecdotally to work quite well (especially with leaner individuals). If the 31kcal/lb of FM was true then I would think that having a straight deficit each day would be more beneficial.0 -
True. It's not like our bodies work in exact 24hr cycles like we use for recording. It's also unlikely that any appreciable amount of LBM gains could even happen in 24hrs of being in a surplus.0
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I suspect the time window varies widely and that one of the variables with the most impact is glycogen reserves. I have been distance running as my primary exercise so I have good glycogen reserves (yeah, I am a special snowflake :bigsmile: unique, like everyone else). On any day but a really long run day, I think I can handle really low intake as long as I made up for it across the next couple of days.0
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Someone else said they thought 2000 a day from fat was conservative. For an obese person, it may be. It is odd that the author used 15% BF as an example.
I'm the "2000 is conservative" poster. It was specifically for the case of a 250 pound male with 35% body fat (Ie, obese, or nearly so).
Taking it a step further, let's add in some running for cardio. 60 minutes, 6 miles, 10 min/mile.
Net calorie burn per mile is 0.63 * bodyweight -> 157 cal/mile -> 945 calories/hour running. In that same hour, fat stores provide around 1 calorie/pound of fat store, or right around 100 calories during that hour of running. This leaves a deficit of over 800 calories that cannot be filled from fat stores, so it has to come from a combination of glycogen stores and digested calories. So you can see right away that the protein guideline falls apart if you do cardio, because you are going to be burning protein for fuel before it gets a chance to "build muscle".
So you need carbs if you're going to do cardio and want to save the protein for LBM maintenance - unless you're go to something like a 2g/LBM guideline, but then we have to consider the limits on how fast protein can actually be metabolized for fuel. Whatever that rate is, it's slower than it is for turning carbs into fuel. Much slower. My understanding is even the high performance gels, taken with perfect timing, do not prevent glycogen depletion in endurance racers, which means relying on protein metabolism will inevitably fry your glycogen stores.
Whew!
You can actually lay this stuff out in a spreadsheet, showing where calories enter the body, where they enter "the system", where they come out for specific exercise, etc. It's a neat exercise, pretty eye opening, as it forces realization that the body does things a little bit at a time, all the time.0 -
Where it gets tricky is cal/carb cycling. Having some days of the week at maintenance or surplus and then some larger deficit days has proven anecdotally to work quite well (especially with leaner individuals). If the 31kcal/lb of FM was true then I would think that having a straight deficit each day would be more beneficial.
Does this suggest that, with leaner people, the body may be more "sensitive" to larger deficits, responding to them more quickly?0 -
From my personal experience, readings and discussions, if you train well for a half marathon you will not suffer glycogen depletion even if you take nothing during the run. I have not run a full marathon, but my understanding is that nearly everyone but the elite distance runners will suffer glycogen depletion during a marathon even if they take energy beans/gels during the run. The elite runners may dodge it by a combination of large reserves and efficiency.0
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My personal experience was a modest deficit but with no lifting, inadequate protein (60-85g daily) and running as my primary activity. Over a 7 month span I lost 20.6 lbs with 16.1 lbs coming from fat and 4.6 lbs coming from lean mass. This was all measured by DEXA as a baseline and then 7 months later. My average daily deficit was calculated to be somewhere around 310 calories. I was disappointed with lean mass loss that high, though I can't confirm some of it wasn't water weight since I think I wasn't in the throes of a cut when I took the baseline. I was lifting and recomping at 2300 calories daily (an even smaller deficit) by the time I did the 2nd one.
That is consistent, though, with the first time I lost weight - 60 lbs over a year and lost roughly 13.5 lbs of LBM.
With inadequate protein and the absence of lifting, I seem to lose about 22.5% from LBM of any given loss. Just anecdotal, but thought it was interesting info.0 -
From my personal experience, readings and discussions, if you train well for a half marathon you will not suffer glycogen depletion even if you take nothing during the run. I have not run a full marathon, but my understanding is that nearly everyone but the elite distance runners will suffer glycogen depletion during a marathon even if they take energy beans/gels during the run. The elite runners may dodge it by a combination of large reserves and efficiency.
My experiences and readings agree with this, though in most cases meaningfull training isn't happening at significant deficits.0 -
damir00: glad I don't do endurance cardio
Where it gets tricky is cal/carb cycling. Having some days of the week at maintenance or surplus and then some larger deficit days has proven anecdotally to work quite well (especially with leaner individuals). If the 31kcal/lb of FM was true then I would think that having a straight deficit each day would be more beneficial.
Does this suggest that, with leaner people, the body may be more "sensitive" to larger deficits, responding to them more quickly?
Responding as in losing fat mass preferentially to LBM? If so, no I don't believe so. Leaner you are the more likely it is that the body will preferentially use LBM as fuel compared to fat. Or sensitive, being that a leaner person is more likely to use LBM as fuel than fat? I think I just wrote the same thing twice :laugh:0 -
damir00: glad I don't do endurance cardioWhere it gets tricky is cal/carb cycling. Having some days of the week at maintenance or surplus and then some larger deficit days has proven anecdotally to work quite well (especially with leaner individuals). If the 31kcal/lb of FM was true then I would think that having a straight deficit each day would be more beneficial.
Does this suggest that, with leaner people, the body may be more "sensitive" to larger deficits, responding to them more quickly?
Responding as in losing fat mass preferentially to LBM? If so, no I don't believe so. Leaner you are the more likely it is that the body will preferentially use LBM as fuel compared to fat. Or sensitive, being that a leaner person is more likely to use LBM as fuel than fat? I think I just wrote the same thing twice :laugh:
As in more apt to lose/burn LBM as a result of larger deficits over time.0 -
im in ...0
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My personal experience was a modest deficit but with no lifting, inadequate protein (60-85g daily) and running as my primary activity. Over a 7 month span I lost 20.6 lbs with 16.1 lbs coming from fat and 4.6 lbs coming from lean mass. This was all measured by DEXA as a baseline and then 7 months later. My average daily deficit was calculated to be somewhere around 310 calories. I was disappointed with lean mass loss that high, though I can't confirm some of it wasn't water weight since I think I wasn't in the throes of a cut when I took the baseline. I was lifting and recomping at 2300 calories daily (an even smaller deficit) by the time I did the 2nd one.
That is consistent, though, with the first time I lost weight - 60 lbs over a year and lost roughly 13.5 lbs of LBM.
With inadequate protein and the absence of lifting, I seem to lose about 22.5% from LBM of any given loss. Just anecdotal, but thought it was interesting info.
That's actually a pretty good P-ratio there considering the exercise choice. I was expecting closer to 50% LBM loss.
When I lost the majority of weight, I did no formal resistance training, averaged cal deficit of around 1000 initially dropping to 500 by the end. Protein was around 1g/lb of LBM (initial) and I DEFINITELY lost a lot of LBM. No dexa unfortunately (didn't even know what it was then).0 -
**In for reading later**
I had to get out my calculator, I tend to go OVER the stated protein ratio, but I do keep fats at about the stated ratio. I've lost a little bit of muscle, but it's been mainly fat lost in my quest for a better body.
I aim for 150g protein, 50g fat and 75-100g carbs (mainly non-starchy veg) daily. My weight is 62kg (136lb). In my fat loss stage, I kept my calorie deficit at about 500 per day (averaged over the week). It's worked very well for me.0 -
Very interesting discussion to me.
I'm 6'3" and currently at 289 down from a peak weight of approx 350 +/-. Recently did a hydrostatic body comp test and the results showed me at 30.12 bf% with lbm @ 203#'s and fat at 87#'s.
Don't know what my numbers were when I was at 350+ but I guess that my bf% at that time must have exceeded 40% or more.
Was setting goals to get myself back in the 200# range but after this test it has me thinking a better goal would be to concentrate more on lowering bf% down in to the 12-15% range rather than an arbitrary scale #.
What do folk think might be a realistic scenario for a goal. Don't imagine that it is realistic to try and keep all 203#'s of that lbm but it would be great to hold on to as big a % as possible while dumping fat.
I intend to add more strength training in to my repetoire.
Not a lot of formal lifting in routine at the moment but I am constantly lifting heavy stuff on a pretty much regular basis just in my daily activities around our ranch (clearing brush, chainsaw work, cutting trees, tossing logs, etc, not to mention the activities around remodeling and building our house).
Other cardio comes from swimming and water polo.0 -
Very interesting discussion to me.
I'm 6'3" and currently at 289 down from a peak weight of approx 350 +/-. Recently did a hydrostatic body comp test and the results showed me at 30.12 bf% with lbm @ 203#'s and fat at 87#'s.
Don't know what my numbers were when I was at 350+ but I guess that my bf% at that time must have exceeded 40% or more.
Was setting goals to get myself back in the 200# range but after this test it has me thinking a better goal would be to concentrate more on lowering bf% down in to the 12-15% range rather than an arbitrary scale #.
What do folk think might be a realistic scenario for a goal. Don't imagine that it is realistic to try and keep all 203#'s of that lbm but it would be great to hold on to as big a % as possible while dumping fat.
I intend to add more strength training in to my repetoire.
Not a lot of formal lifting in routine at the moment but I am constantly lifting heavy stuff on a pretty much regular basis just in my daily activities around our ranch (clearing brush, chainsaw work, cutting trees, tossing logs, etc, not to mention the activities around remodeling and building our house).
Other cardio comes from swimming and water polo.
My understanding is adequate protein intake in a deficit is more important than weight training specifically, especially if your daily life is very active and includes heavy labor as yours does. If you keep to at least 200g protein daily and a modest deficit of 15-20% of overall TDEE, you should be able to maintain most of that LBM, which will put you MILES ahead of the game once you're at a healthy BF level.0 -
This is a great thread, very informative.
I'm currently cutting down and trying to shed some fat while retaining as much of my current LBM as possible. Since starting two months ago, I've gone up on all of my lifts and some of them significantly. This is all while on a 20% deficit, lifting 4 times a week, and eating around 150-175g of protein daily (current weight of 203 lbs).
Now I've read where you can get stronger, able to lift more, but not actually gain any mass. Is this true? If so how does that work? Seems like some of you folks on here are pretty knowledgeable and might have some ideas.0
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